Reading the Detectives discussion

Our third Adam Dalgliesh Challenge Title is: Unnatural Causes by P.D. James, first published in 1967.

Unsure of whether or not to propose to Deborah Riscoe, Dalgliesh heads off for a well-earned rest at his Aunt Jane's cottage, on Monksmere Head. Near a bird reserve, the area is populated by writers and, when one turns up murdered and mutilated, Dalgliesh becomes involved in the investigation, alongside the wonderfully named D I Reckless.

Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.

I did think the plot of this book was good, and it did keep me guessing almost to the end, but to be honest, I did get tired of the lovey writers and found my mind wandering. The setting was described very well, it was such a shame it was inhabited by such a lot of horrid people. The ending was well done and I could feel the urgency of the situation.
I just cannot warm to Dalgliesh. I don't like the way we are told that Dalgliesh has worked the whole plot out but we are not given any clues to what he thinks.

Jill wrote: " I don't like the way we are told that Dalgliesh has worked the whole plot out but we are not given any clues to what he thinks."

Yes, that annoyed me. I liked this installment better than the other two, but James could have left that part out and not have hurt anything. Still, I think he yet again didn't have it all worked out.

I found this a bit staged. It seemed unlikely so many author's and people related to literature would live in such close proximity. Jane Dalgliesh was also remarkably uninterested in events and that is remarked upon at the end of the novel.

I really like the next in the series, which is set in a nurses home. P.D. James worked for the NHS for much of her life and it was a setting she does really well. I think you might refer that, Jill, if you can give her one more try.

It also seems, third novel in, that James decided to make a decision about Deborah Riscoe...

I thought that Jane was uninterested in events all along. She didn't want to socialize much. She had her own life and wasn't especially interested in the gossipy busy bodies of the community.

I liked it more than the first two actually, mainly because of the twist climax and ending. I thought there were some golden age aspects to the novel, but it was very modern. One thing I finally noticed about Dalgliesh, is that he can sense a bad or guilty person for no obvious reason, but there are reasons. He didn’t know why he didn’t like Sylvia, and he felt guilty, but he was right in the end.

I can see where there are things that aren’t easy to like about Dalgliesh, but I go for different novels - some that are more fantasy, mysteries, i.e. less realistic, where the detective is wonderful and perfect, and those that reflect real life. James’s novels fall in the latter category.

Bruce wrote: "One thing I finally noticed about Dalgliesh, is that he can sense a bad or guilty person for no obvious reason, but there are reasons. "

Yes. There was another, I can't recall exactly, when he knew he'd seen something significant but couldn't place just exactly what it was.

What I liked about Dalgliesh is that when he was trying to decide whether or not he wanted to marry, was that he wasn't sure he wanted to give up his privacy. This is an important thing to know about yourself - to be able to identify it specifically.

I was quite pleased that it was Deborah's decision in the end to call it off. I thought Dalgliesh's dithering was not an ideal way to start a marriage.

I don't think that was the decision she wanted, but it was the one Dalgliesh wanted, even if he couldn't bring himself to voice it.

This is well-plotted, but I didn't particularly like many of the characters.

I find it quite tricky to rate these books. They are much better than some other mysteries - better language and plot, but measuring them against the later books in the series, they are not nearly as good as those.

I loved the Suffolk landscapes, and enjoyed about the first two thirds, but then thought the book had a very weak ending. The explanation of how the murders were carried out was so complicated I am not sure if I followed it all.

I still don't really understand how Sylvia and Digby could be sure Maurice's death would look like natural causes if he had actually been punched. How could they be so sure he wouldn't bruise? I also didn't like the whole section narrated by Sylvia where she explains how she did it - and I felt she didn't really have a good motive, apart from being somehow "unnatural", which does go with the title.

Also, on Adam and Deborah, it seems he has just decided he does want to marry her when she decides she is fed up of waiting. Couldn't he fly to America and try to change her mind?!

I thought the 'unnatural' in the title was refuting the fact that Seton died of 'natural' causes.

I didn't agree with her motivation, but it's hard to understand the level of hatred that would cause someone to commit a murder.

Judy wrote: "The explanation of how the murders were carried out was so complicated I am not sure if I followed it all."

Seton had a weak heart and was terrified of enclosed spaces. I think Sylvia assumed that if they put him in a small enclosed space (the enclosed sidecar) he would have a heart attack, which was what happened.

I pictured the sidecar to be sort of the general size and shape of a small kayak with a lid.

Judy wrote: "Also, on Adam and Deborah, it seems he has just decided he does want to marry her when she decides she is fed up of waiting. Couldn't he fly to America and try to change her mind?!"

We have 9 more books in the series. I'll await future developments. But I hope he doesn't, because I don't think he wants to be married to anyone.

I agree, Elizabeth. I don't think he really wants to commit to marriage again.

Judy, I think it was quite a risk to assume Seton would die. Have a heart attack, maybe, but not necessarily a fatal one.

Thanks for the explanations, Elizabeth and Susan. I found it very confusing. There was a bit where Digby hit Maurice and knew how to do it because he was a former boxer - I suppose this must have been to make him unconscious so they could get him in the sidecar.

I found it pretty unbelievable that Digby would go along with all Sylvia's plots, too.

Judy wrote: "I found it pretty unbelievable that Digby would go along with all Sylvia's plots, too."

He was a loser in pretty much all respects. Money would be the great equalizer, and inheriting a fortune must have seemed the path.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: We have 9 more books in the series. I'll await future developments. But I hope he doesn't, because I don't think he wants to be married to anyone..."

You're probably right - he seemed to take a long time to make up his mind and then it seemed to be possibly because he was feeling sorry for himself rather than true love. It would be nice to have a bit of romance in the series though.

Judy wrote: "It would be nice to have a bit of romance in the series though."

After you mentioned it above, I was thinking about how James presents this romance. We really don't see Deborah nor Adam and Deborah together. What we see is Adam thinking about Deborah, through his thoughts we have some idea of their being together. Adam doesn't have a home life. Do we need to see Adam away from the job? Here, he is with his Aunt, but that's not really a home life.

It’s understandable he wouldn’t want to settle down after the traumatic experience he went through years earlier. Loss or hurt can make attachments difficult for some people, but they need something to get by.

I liked this the best of the first three, and I’m reading the fourth which is even better. She’s an author that seems to improve with time. I think there’s 2 reasons - 2. She developed as a writer, and 2. Times progressed away further from the golden age, and she was more suited for writing about contemporary times, albeit with some aspects of golden age, i.e. limited setting and characters for each novel.

Bruce, I love the fourth in the series. It is a book that I am greatly looking forward to re-visiting. I do think James steps up a gear in the next book and that the series really takes off at that stage.

It’s really interesting so far, and I’m even more stumbled with it than the others. I’m also going to be reading the Cordelia Gray novels mixed in chronologically with the Dalgliesh novels, and I believe I heard that Dalgliesh appears in one or both of the books.

We read the Cordelia Gray books here.
Here are the threads if you are interested:-
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

In the non-spoiler thread Emma wrote: "I thought what he deserved regarding Deborah."

I don't understand "what he deserved." That sounds like spite, as if Dalgliesh treated her poorly. Do we have any indication of that?

I think we do get an indication that Adam hasn't seemed fully committed or spent enough time with Deborah from her point of view - she writes that she isn't willing to spend any more time waiting on the periphery of his life.

But, since we have never really seen them together, as you say, Elizabeth, I don't think we know enough about their relationship to say how they have treated one another.

I do get the impression, though, from the poem, that he has realised he does love her and does want to marry her. I find it a bit frustrating that he then just throws the poem away and doesn't let her know!

I honestly don't know whether my sympathies are with Deborah or Adam. We are led to believe that she thought the relationship was heading for marriage. We know for a certainty that Adam has asked himself whether that is what he wants.

And so I am amused that we are talking as if these are real people and that we have a stake in their decision. ;-)

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "And so I am amused that we are talking as if these are real people and that we have a stake in their decision. ;-).."

Haha, I plead guilty to that. :)

Re the on-off romance, I am just glad that James put a stop to it and we didn't have the Wimsey-Harriet angst, going on for several books, to be honest. I can imagine that she decided she needed to make a decision and, sending Deborah off for work in the US wasn't final. She could make a re-appearance later, if James decided to revitalise the storyline.

I quite enjoyed this, but not as much as the previous two. The highlight for me was the storm at the end which I thought was really well written, but the plot wasn't very convincing. I'm never very keen on Books where the crime is revealed in a tape or a letter either.

I partly guessed this one - I thought it was obvious early on that the posted manuscripts played a part and that clearly pointed to his secretary, and her hysteria was a bit suspicious, but I didn't work out the rest of it.

Susan wrote: "I found this a bit staged."

Yes, I found this stagey and artificial, and couldn't believe either the solution or the confession or even the convenient fall off the roof for a second.

Maybe this is a 60s thing, but the way Sylvia's disabity was written about left a bad taste in my mouth - I suppose it's the equivalent of all that casual racism, sexism, homophobia etc. we can find.

Judy wrote: "I do get the impression, though, from the poem, that he has realised he does love her and does want to marry her. I find it a bit frustrating that he then just throws the poem away"

I think Dalgleish is a commitment-phobe and only wants what he can't have. He remembers the start of their affair fondly when he never knew whether Deborah would agree to see him or not - once he knows she's involved, he gets bored. Isn't his letter and poem partly prompted by the fact she hasn't been in contact? There's a strong family resemblance between him and his aunt: and he thinks towards the end that her self-containment and lack of interest in other people is frightening - I think he's scared because he recognises the same characteristics in himself. Her expertise in birds is like his in his job, both are intellectually clever but fundamentally loners.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I think he's scared because he recognises the same characteristics in himself. "

I don't know why being single your entire life should be scary. Yes, I am married, and like it. But I know people, both male and female, who are single and prefer it that way.

I don't think it's about being single, one can be a loner in marriage: isn't that precisely what Dalgleish is struggling over?

This is the quote: 'Never before had his aunt's uninvolvement struck him so forcibly; never before had it seemed so frightening'.

Roman Clodia wrote: "This is the quote: 'Never before had his aunt's uninvolvement struck him so forcibly; never before had it seemed so frightening'."

Being single doesn't mean uninvolved. Yes, his aunt didn't like social situations. After her fiance was killed, she withdrew, and apparently withdrew for a lifetime. But I don't see that as being the same thing. At least not in the single people I've observed. The single people here are more involved, if that is possible, than married people.

I don't see Dalgliesh as being withdrawn.

I hadn't remembered him as being withdrawn from reading some of the books previously, but I'm getting that feeling so far this time round. Hope we see a bit more of his personality in the next book.

I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. We look forward to the next book in just a month. I admit I probably wouldn't be interested in reading an author's books month in and month out without others doing the same. Read on! I, too, look forward to what James might have in store for Dagliesh come April.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I don't see Dalgliesh as being withdrawn"

I don't either, but it's mentioned a couple of times that since he was young, he's always felt most himself when walking alone at night. Maybe it's semantics but I see him as needing to be solitary.

Roman Clodia wrote: "I see him as needing to be solitary."

He worries about being married will invade his privacy, so, yes, I can agree with his need to be solitary. But I think Aunt Jane kept completely to herself, that she started going to those writers socials reluctantly. I don't see Dalgliesh in the same way. I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time).

I agree Roman. The ableism in the book upset me as well, especially as I am disabled, although I think some of it was in a way as to show 1. Dalgliesh wasn’t nice in being ableist and 2. It was something subconscious, and he knew she was a killer without knowing that he knew.

Roman Clodia wrote: "Susan wrote: "I found this a bit staged."

Yes, I found this stagey and artificial, and couldn't believe either the solution or the confession or even the convenient fall off the roof for a second...."

I agree, I disliked the attitudes to disability expressed in this book & some of the other attitudes too. This was a book I would happily have abandoned at any stage, I disliked the characters & didn’t care what happened to any of them. My only sympathy was with Deborah, who only had a brief mention in this story. Having got involved with her, Dalgliesh didn’t care enough to make a decision or even contact her - he was just selfish & unkind.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "I think he's scared because he recognises the same characteristics in himself. "

I don't know why being single your entire life should be scary. Yes, I am married, and like it..."

Elizabeth, from the security of a happy marriage it must be difficult to imagine being single all your life. Yes, it is some people’s choice - but not everyone’s. All those decisions you share with your husband have to be made alone. You may have children, others would like to have done. Then friends start having grandchildren... Alone, there’s no choice but to be fiercely independent, but it’s hard when things go wrong. Sole control of the tv remote control is a very poor substitute for a loving relationship!

Trisha wrote: "Elizabeth, from the security of a happy marriage it must be difficult to imagine being single all your life. "

Yes, I am happily married (although I raised my children as a single parent). I also know people who choose to be single. My mother was a widow for nearly 40 years before she died. One of my friends was married, but prefers to be single and has done so for the last 30 years - and others similarly situated who have never been married. I know that not every single person chooses to be single, but I also know that not every single person would choose to be married.

Bruce wrote: "1. Dalgliesh wasn’t nice in being ableist"

What is an ableist and in what way was Dalgliesh being one?

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Trisha wrote: "Elizabeth, from the security of a happy marriage it must be difficult to imagine being single all your life. "

Yes, I am happily married (although I raised my children as a single p..."

Elizabeth, I think we may have misunderstood each other’s comments a little. I’m sorry if I didn’t explain properly. Yes, I agree that everyone has different experiences & that people can be perfectly happy in whatever lifestyle they choose. For Dalgliesh & Deborah, I wonder if their relationship was doomed from the start because of the way they met in the first book. Apart from any doubts about making a commitment to her, I wonder if he was also concerned that her family background would have affected his career prospects? I felt she was right to go away & make a new start in another country. I’m laughing as I make this comment, remembering what you said previously about discussing their relationship as if they are real people!

Has anybody watched the TV series of this book? I think I may have seen it years ago - I'm tempted to watch it for the Suffolk countryside in addition to the drama itself.

Trisha wrote: "For Dalgliesh & Deborah, I wonder if their relationship was doomed from the start because of the way they met in the first book. "

I read the first book long enough ago that I don't remember how they met. What I do know is that Dalgliesh was a widower, his wife having died in childbirth along with their infant daughter. He may be reluctant to take a chance on again living through that pain. Do we know? No, and we can't go ask him.

Judy, I'm pretty sure I haven't seen any of the TV episodes.

Judy wrote: "Has anybody watched the TV series of this book? I think I may have seen it years ago - I'm tempted to watch it for the Suffolk countryside in addition to the drama itself."

Judy, I remember watching the series avidly, with Roy Marsden as Dalgliesh. Each episode was anticipated then discussed at length afterwards! But it’s a long time ago & I don’t remember the stories. I have vague memories of enjoying some countryside & beach scenes that appeared to be in Suffolk.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Trisha wrote: "For Dalgliesh & Deborah, I wonder if their relationship was doomed from the start because of the way they met in the first book. "

I read the first book long enough ago that I don't..."

An interesting point which I hadn’t considered - yes, it is probably very difficult to make a commitment again after such a loss. (He met Deborah in the first book while investigating a murder committed by someone related to her.)