Discovering Russian Literature discussion

Hello and welcome!

"A Red Flower" will be the first of the randomly selected short stories we will be reading this December.

You can find the text here: A Red Flower

Enjoy!

I have never read anything by Vsevolod Garshin before. This one is a great story. I have finished reading and open for discussions.

Here's information about Garshin:

***This article contains spoilers of "A Red Flower"***

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/202/2/...

A bizarre and interesting tale to be sure. Thanks for the link!

I hope to have time to read it in the next days otherwise I'll read it as soon as possible and will ad my thoughts later.

I found this story moving and well written. Thank you, for the biographical information about the author. Obviously, mental illness in his family history and a fear of madness loomed large in his experience.
The theme reminds me of Gogol's interest in the fantastic and grotesque. Is there some similarity with Diary of a Madman? I haven't read that work, but I suspect there must be some influence.
I think the story can be read as a kind of Christian allegory. The imagery seems apocalyptic, and appears related to the complete social upheaval facing Russia at the time. There is a magical number of three flowers that suggest an unholy correspondence to the Holy Trinity. In general, we have a Christ-like figure who redeems the world. I know this reading might be a little simplistic and reductive. At the same time, it is a touching depiction of individual suffering.

I had just been going to say that unfortunately I don't have a copy of the book and would not be able to lay my hands on it quickly enough. Now I see you have put up a link to the book. Thank you Amalie. Perhaps I shall get a chance to read it on my laptop as the iPhone is too small! Here's hoping anyhow!

Frank wrote: "There is a magical number of three flowers that suggest an unholy correspondence to the Holy Trinity. In general, we have a Christ-like figure who redeems the world. ..."

Not only the experiences but also Garshin's own life is strangely parallel to the Christ-like Patient. Garshin had committed suicide at 33, the age traditionally attributed to Jesus at the time of his crucifixion. But I guess it's a mere coincidence.

As for red flowers, I was wondering, how can we(and the patient) be sure the third red flower is the final one. May be there are more. Then the Patient's death is in vain, isn't it?


There is a small similarity of this with Chekhov's "Ward Number Six". There, the doctor first ignores but later had to confront injustice and evil.

There is link to original Russian text. I was told we are reading translation, hmmm, if I can, I prefere translate myself ;)
http://az.lib.ru/g/garshin_w_m/text_0...
Enjoy!

Hilary wrote: "I had just been going to say that unfortunately I don't have a copy of the book and would not be able to lay my hands on it quickly enough. Now I see you have put up a link to the book. Thank you..."

You can always print it out. After squeezing a little bit only 6 pages, but even 10 doesn't seem to be much...

Thanks for the suggestion, Astratow. :-}

Astratow wrote: "There is link to original Russian text. I was told we are reading translation, hmmm, if I can, I prefere translate myself ;)
http://az.lib.ru/g/garshin_w_m/text_0...
Enjoy!"

thank you for the real good link!

Frank wrote: "Is there some similarity with Diary of a Madman? ..."

There certainly is. The main character is another "madman" who desires to defeat the evil of the world.

I was wondering if "red" is only a symbol of evil. The colour red is very prominent in the Russian culture.

Red symbolism in Russia: http://goeasteurope.about.com/od/russ...



A very moving story. Thanks for the link!

Thanks for the link , Amalie . I managed to read
it on my laptop . Great story. So full of symbolism .

I believe I had heard of Garshin, but if I have I have no knowledge of him. I did enjoy the story. My initial reaction was that Russian writers sure have a fascination with prisons or insane asylums!

Very true, Vanjr. :)

Just skimmed a bit in anticipation of reading later. Sounds a bit similar to Chekhov's "Ward No. 6," which I imagine G. would've known? I'm even more curious to read it now. (Not suggesting G. was copying C; more like responding to C, just as C, I'm convinced, wrote "A Boring Story" in response to Tolstoy's "Death of Ivan Ilych.")

Thanks for sharing. I just downloaded the pdf version. Started printing it right away !! :D.

Tom wrote: "Just skimmed a bit in anticipation of reading later. Sounds a bit similar to Chekhov's "Ward No. 6," which I imagine G. would've known? I'm even more curious to read it now. (Not suggesting G. w..."

Ward #6 was published in 1892. Garshin died in 1888.

Vanjr wrote: "I believe I had heard of Garshin, but if I have I have no knowledge of him. I did enjoy the story. My initial reaction was that Russian writers sure have a fascination with prisons or insane asyl..."

My first reaction to your comment was 'the whole Russia is ward #6'. I don't remember who said it first but it has become an idiom in Russia.

On a second thought: in the 19th century - maybe. (prison camp lit of 20th century does NOT count, it's all a totally different history - History.)

As for the 20th century asylum stories, what can beat the American 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest'? :)

I only saw Cuckoo's Nest as a movie. Very powerful.

Bigollo wrote: "Tom wrote: "Just skimmed a bit in anticipation of reading later. Sounds a bit similar to Chekhov's "Ward No. 6," which I imagine G. would've known? I'm even more curious to read it now. (Not sug..."

Ah, well, that settles that, or then again maybe I just need to flip roles: perhaps Chekhov was responding to Garshin. Anyway, thanks for info, Bigollo.

Love your thinking, Tom. :)

Tom wrote: "Bigollo wrote: "Tom wrote: "Just skimmed a bit in anticipation of reading later. Sounds a bit similar to Chekhov's "Ward No. 6," which I imagine G. would've known? I'm even more curious to read i..."

I think the point still stands-I should read both. Thank you for the observation!

The story was fascinating. Now I have to read Ward No. 6 - thank you for clarifying the publication date on those.

Thanks for the link Amalie! It was interesting to read about his life experiences, definitely gave some perspective to this short work. Being a reader in the 21st century, I wish it was in the first person. Even though we get a good sense of what the man's motivations are, they're obscured through his actions and mutterings.

One other thing I really liked was that he was trying to rid the world of evil, which is that one of the most basic goals in many people's lives. Luckily, there are people who understand what we're doing and support our actions, for the mentally ill that's not the case.

The Christian themes were also pretty strong too, good point, Frank, though in response to Amalie's response, is evil ever completely eradicated? Sacrifices will hold it at bay, but what ultimately happens depends on what brand of Christianity you follow (I think?). Perhaps Garshin was trying to do what Joan Osborne did and challenged his readers to think "what if God was one of us?"

Hilary wrote: "I only saw Cuckoo's Nest as a movie. Very powerful."

Have lost track of how many times I've watched that movie. It holds up quite well, I find. (speaking of near-crazies, the actor who plays Billy -- name escapes me -- is very good as Hazel Motes in film version of Flannery O'Connor's Wise Blood. A kind of gritty -- since we're into grit -- spiritual thriller.)

You are all welcome about the links!

Did anyone know that Vsevolod Garshin actually posed as the czar's son for the monumental painting Czar Ivan the Terrible with the Body of His Son?

Here's Garshin's portrait done by the artist Repin. (by the way, he never owned his portrait.)




Czar Ivan the Terrible with the Body of His Son (Repin)

He actually Killed his son

Oh I must look into that one, Tom. Thanks!

I did not know that, Janith! He more than earned his name.

Hilary wrote: "Oh I must look into that one, Tom. Thanks!"

And O'Connor was a big Dostoevsky fan -- so there's the Russian connection.

Love the detail of Ivan's eyes. Reminds me of Gogol's short story "Viy," about a seminarian's encounter with possessed woman. Very spooky.

Tom, the actor's name is Brad Dourif. Couldn't settle until I found it. :-)

Can notice Garshin's nose in 'Czar Ivan the Terrible with the Body of His Son' painting. Interesting!

I'm reading the next story "Hide and Seek" after reading about a "madman", I find that one very interesting.

Hilary wrote: "I did not know that, Janith! He more than earned his name."

Sure he did Hilary. It was nothing compared to the horrible things he has done. Ivan suffered a mental illness that increased with his age. He was both delusional and psychotic. On top of that, there's always his blind rage and bloodthirst. So you can imagine how it was like, to be Ivan The Terrible ....

Hilary wrote: "Tom, the actor's name is Brad Dourif. Couldn't settle until I found it. :-)"

Aye, he be the one, Hilary. Highly respected by his acting peers, from what I've read, but never really "made it." (not exactly leading man look) Disappeared for a long stretch -- at least from the screen -- but made a "comeback' of sorts in Lord of Rings movies.

Hilary wrote: "Tom, the actor's name is Brad Dourif. Couldn't settle until I found it. :-)"

I like Brad Dourif since I saw him on that creepy X-Files episode. Some of his roles are not so good, but I like him anyway.

Now I'm curious to know who could be prototype of Ivan the Terrible in that painting.

Beautifully written, such an eloquent description of mental illness in the pre- medication era.
The author has poured both his own fears and his own empathy into this tale.
A truly human look at mental illness.

I managed to read the story today. Garshin's tale is so well written and thought provoking. I loved the descriptions of the man's living conditions in the asylum and his mental state. I also enjoyed th symbolism of the flower. In a way, I can see the christian allegory as mentioned before. Such an enjoyable though! It was my first Garshin too.

Amalie wrote: "FAs for red flowers, I was wondering, how can we(and the patient) be sure the third red flower is the final one. May be there are more. Then the Patient's death is in vain, isn't it?"

We know it is because it's impossible to root out the evil in the whole world. The madmad of the story was sure that thanks to his act of "killing" the three flowers he would have saved the world. He dies happy.


I think that if we stop for a moment and start thinking about all the evil that is in the world, we could feel powerless and this could lead to crazyness. Nobody of us is so mad to think to root out evilness from the world but we try to do our best with small actions and this helps to not get insane.