21st Century Literature discussion

This thread is for discussing Part 3 and the book as a whole.

My Review, mostly written in August 2017:

I first read in August 2017 and then again in June 2019 before reading Winter. My review -- https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I was a long time coming to read this book, but once I started, I couldn't put it down. It's coming down off the shelf for a reread as we go through the parts. I've put off starting Winter until after this discussion. Excited to hear the discussion!

My review in June 2019:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

A happy accident: In the ebook version, sections are always started on new pages. In the penultimate section of part 3, it begins with "This time, the woman at reception doesn't even look up. " The section exactly fits on one page. The page ends with "What you reading?" And the next page

is

blank.

It is an accidental artifact of the e-typography, but Smith, the page juggler, would be pleased. As I looked at the blank page, I was unsettled. What happened next? Why can't I know? Then I realized that this modeled Elisabeth's reaction to Gluck's death.

I'm also charmed by the revelation that Elisabeth is an untrustworthy narrator of her mother's personality. Everything Elisabeth says about her mother portrays a conventional stifled English housewife. The mother's actions though, from first showing that hilarious 9 year-old's invented interview TO the neighbor, to her wild (pot-smoking!) connection with the child-star-turned-therapist, portray a much more vital, open person, not unlike Elisabeth (surprise!).

My own mother is 92. She has never forgiven HER mother for her feelings as a girl, while I have seen her mother more the way her neighbors did.

Very interesting point about the difference between Elisabeth's portrayal of her mother and her actual mother's personality/interests. Elisabeth is rather dismissive/judgmental of her in the way many of us are towards parents--they're not exactly seen as vital individuals (and often we don't get to truly see that side of our parents). I found myself wanting to dislike her mother because of the way Elisabeth portrays her, but the more she was portrayed in her own words or actions, the more she seemed to undermine this portrayal.

This might be reaching a bit but it also feels somewhat parallel to the way we perceive our political "opposites"--we assume we know their feelings and positions; we dismiss or judge them; etc.

Marc wrote: "This might be reaching a bit but it also feels somewhat parallel to the way we perceive our political "opposites"--we assume we know their feelings and positions; we dismiss or judge them; etc. "

That's a great point, Marc. If you don't know the person you live with, how can you know the person down the street/in another part of the country?

I thought Elisabeth's mother was how Elisabeth saw her but that there were also probably extenuating circumstances (not really wanting to be a mother at all) which Elisabeth couldn't appreciate.

Marc wrote: "Very interesting point about the difference between Elisabeth's portrayal of her mother and her actual mother's personality/interests. Elisabeth is rather dismissive/judgmental of her in the way ma..."

Judge Lerned Hand wrote: "The spirit of Liberty is the spirit which is not too sure that it is right."
He also said:
(paraphrasing) The spirit of Liberty is the spirit which tries to understand another's point of view.

Jan, this makes me think of Plato's notion of the philosopher king (i.e., how the ideals we want in a leader are often ideals that don't necessarily thrive in individuals who seek out leadership/power). But even at the individual level, contemporary life doesn't seem to encourage a "spirit which is not too sure that it is right."

Seems like Smith often uses a young character to facilitate that doubt and questioning.

And the mother is certainly as guilty of making assumptions about others (her initial distrust of Daniel, as well as extrapolating about his sexuality).

Curious what others thought of Pauline Boty's role in this book. Were you familiar with her prior to this book? Was there enough in the book alone to make the references work or did you seek out her work/bio outside of the book?

I tend not to like when real and fictional characters are mixed. Or rather, I don't mind a real person playing a cameo role, but I wasn't excited about her having some kind of relationship with Daniel. I had never heard of her before. The references in the text were probably enough, but I did skim through some of the articles posted here. It's a pity a few more of her pictures weren't reproduced in the book to get a better feel for it!

I did feel that I had to look Christine Keeler up to figure out what was going on.

I had never heard of Boty. I thought there was enough in the book to make the references work, but I still looked her up to be sure she was real. She was quite talented. Unlike Emily, I do not mind the mixing of real and fictional characters. It can be challenging but it is usually easy these days to find out what is real. And the reward is learning about people I would never have otherwise known about.

I have a vague memory of seeing a late night BBC4 TV documentary about lost 60s pop art and I think Boty was one of the main artists discussed. This would probably have been a couple of years before the book. No idea what it was called or who made it.

Hugh wrote: "I have a vague memory of seeing a late night BBC4 TV documentary about lost 60s pop art and I think Boty was one of the main artists discussed. This would probably have been a couple of years befor..."

It is called, Pop Goes the Easel, and was made by the acclaimed Ken Russell. I tried to find a copy online and there is a link on Daily Motion, but I had trouble with it. The UK citizens should do better.

I was aware of Boty, but Ali Smith makes her shine. I spent a bit of time viewing her work after I first read the novel.

Thanks Sam. I suspect I caught it on a Friday night after a few beers - it must have been interesting for me to have remembered it at all. You are right that I should have known Ken Russell was involved...

Sam wrote: "It is called, Pop Goes the Easel, and was made by the acclaimed Ken Russell. I tried to find a copy online and there is a link on Daily Motion, but I had trouble with it. The UK citizens should do better."

Thank you for finding it on Daily Motion. The segment featuring Pauline Boty is in the last 20 minutes or so. This link worked for me and I've just watched it (I use Chrome):
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5h...

I also never heard of Boty and was glad to learn more about her. I think the novel worked well as a reference but it also piqued my interest to explore her works and I enjoyed the pictorial journey in identifying all but one or two of her referenced collages and paintings. All of her better known works were mentioned so it didn't take too long to find them.

One of Daniel's many wonderful qualities is his free and creative spirit, and it felt natural to me that he would be enamored with someone like Pauline Boty. Like Emily, I'm not always at ease when real and fictional characters are integrated into the story, but I thought it worked quite well this time.

Sam wrote: "Hugh wrote: "I have a vague memory of seeing a late night BBC4 TV documentary about lost 60s pop art and I think Boty was one of the main artists discussed. This would probably have been a couple o..."
I didn't look up Pop Goes the Easel last night, but the program I was talking about was much more recent, and was talking about how the women that were key players in pop art were later written out of the story by the male dominated artistic establishment (something Ali Smith also talks about), and also how some of the neglected works were rediscovered. I have not succeeded in tracking it down.

Hugh wrote: "Sam wrote: "Hugh wrote: "I have a vague memory of seeing a late night BBC4 TV documentary about lost 60s pop art and I think Boty was one of the main artists discussed. This would probably have bee..."

I had read about the BBC special you mentioned and I tried to track it down because Inthought it might have influenced Smith. I could find no copy of it so I thought there might have been a repeat of Pop Goes the Weasel. I wouldn't mind seeimg the special Hugh saw if anyone finds a link.

My second Ali Smith, almost as enjoyable as There But For The. I was fascinated reading her enthusiastic pages on Boty. I ended the book feeling that I knew far more about her personality and appearance than about Elizabeth or Daniel. Deep into the book, we are suddenly told that Elisabeth has been living with someone named Tom for five years and “They were talking marriage, mortgage” (147). And that’s it on him and them. But there's more than enough thoughtful, perceptive, warm-hearted story-telling here to make me eager for the next 3 books.
For my full review: www.goodreads.com/gregoryslibrary

I don't know. Boty was kind of the weak link of the book for me. I wasn't particularly into her artwork (it could just be I'm not much into Pop Art) and apart form not liking real people in fictional stories, I was also a bit bored by the "she was talented AND fun AND drop-dead-gorgeous" angle. I much preferred the parts of the book about Daniel, Elisabeth and her mother.

Emily wrote: "I don't know. Boty was kind of the weak link of the book for me. I wasn't particularly into her artwork (it could just be I'm not much into Pop Art) and apart form not liking real people in fiction..."
Fair point, Emily. I liked all 3 of them too. But I meant my comment to be as much about the author as Boty. I heard her say somewhere that she is unashamedly "an enthusiast" about certain people and things. That can be great when the object is important but widely underappreciated like Boty. But I think it may imbalance a book's treatment of character too.

Sam wrote: "Hugh wrote: "Sam wrote: "Hugh wrote: "I have a vague memory of seeing a late night BBC4 TV documentary about lost 60s pop art and I think Boty was one of the main artists discussed. This would prob..."
I think it was Pop Go the Women: The Other Story of Pop Art, but the program itself is no longer accessible there: "Artists featured include Pauline Boty, Marisol, Rosalyn Drexler, Idelle Weber, Letty Lou Eisenhauer and Jann Haworth."

One small scene towards the end of the book caught my attention where Elisabeth's mom reacts to the new passport (especially her final comment, which is in bold below):

She shows the new passport to her mother. Her mother points to the words European Union at the top of the cover of the passport and makes a sad face. Then she flicks through it.

What are all these drawings? she says. This passport has been illustrated like a Ladybird book.

A Ladybird book on acid, Elisabeth says.

I don't want a new passport if it's going to look like this, her mother says. And all these men, all through it. Where are all the women? Oh, here's one. Is that Gracie Fields? Architecture? But who on earth? and is that it? Is this woman wearing the funny hat the only woman in the whole thing? Oh no. Here's another one, but sort of folded-in at the centre of a page, like an afterthought. And here's another couple, on the same page as the Scottish pipers, both ethnic stereotype dancers. Performing arts. Well, that's Scotland and women and a brace of continents all well and truly in their place.

She hands it back to Elizabeth.

If I'd seen this ridiculous thing that passes for a passport before the referendum, she says, I'd have known to be ready well ahead of time for what was so clearly on its way.

How did you interpret this passage and what do you think it and the book as a whole have to say about globalization, populist backlash, etc.?

Hugh wrote: "Sam wrote: "Hugh wrote: "Sam wrote: "Hugh wrote: "I have a vague memory of seeing a late night BBC4 TV documentary about lost 60s pop art and I think Boty was one of the main artists discussed. Thi..."

This is also on Daily Motion Thanks Hugh! I hope I can watch the whole video.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1w...

Marc wrote: "One small scene towards the end of the book caught my attention where Elisabeth's mom reacts to the new passport (especially her final comment, which is in bold below):She shows the new passport to..."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...

I just looked at it as Ali Smith poking some fun at sexism and conservatism, with the bold passage about the referendum refering to Brexit.

Interestingly, one of the two women featured (the one in the funny hat) is Elisabeth Scott (Elisabeth with an s, architect of the Royal Shakespeare theatre. A namesake for Smith's Elisabeth?

I have a pre-referendum British passport, and it doesn't have any people at all, just lots of birds and acorns and sundials and things. Probably a better road to take. My Canadian passport is full of gung-ho nationalistic masculine images though. At least the people on the British passport designed things, unlike a bunch of mounted police and hockey players.

Thanks for the link, Sam. I wasn't aware the passport had so many pages (which makes the number of women represented even more stark).

Not feeling like mounted police and hockey players are a good representation of Canadians, Emily?!! Joking. The attempt to visually represent a whole country or culture usually seems to slip into stereotypes or a-la-carte multi-culturalism.

My initial reaction to Elisabeth's mother's reaction was that if this was how the EU was going to represent females and the Scottish, who would want to be a part of it? Which made me think about the precarious balance every nation faces between some sort of national identity/commonality and inclusiveness. And how easily politicians can stoke fear, distrust, displace blame, etc.

I might be leaning a little too heavily on this one passage, but it seems like Smith is not entirely surprised by the populist backlash (or, the mother represents this view). Smith's portrayal is not entirely unsympathetic to the backlash against being part of the EU.