The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

This section shows some significant developments in all our storylines.

Felix is making his plans to run away with Marie (or should we say, Marie is making her plans to run away with Felix).

Mrs. Hurtle once again manoeuvres Paul into spending a weekend at the seaside with her, but they are interrupted by Roger. Do you think Paul would have ended things with her if he hadn't run into Roger?

Ruby brings her relationship to a head with Felix by pressing him about his intentions, and Roger Carbury makes her think differently about her two lovers.

Mr Melmotte's affairs are getting more and more complicated, and we start to wonder how much money he actually has, as he doesn't seem to honour any of his financial obligations. Do you see an end in sight for his chicanery? Who might precipitate a change in his financial dealings/social standing?

Do you think that Trollope is implying a sexual relationship between Ruby and Felix? Between Paul and Mrs Hurtle? Would his readers have assumed so?

Please share your thoughts on this section.

Roger means well, but he’s heavy handed with Ruby. Doesn’t anyone care about her opinion? Why is everyone telling her she HAS to marry John Crumb? I wonder if this is typical of her class that she doesn't have any other options.

Maybe Mrs. Hurtle will take Ruby back with her to America. Life has not been fair to them. Ruby might enjoy it.

I had figured Felix, Marie, Paul, and Mrs. Hurtle would all meet on the ship, but now Paul is not going.

So far, the theme of the book appears to be that social norms may be changing, but life is still unfair for women.

I also suspect that Melmotte is not as wealthy as he appears. He does everything on credit, and I doubt it can go on forever.

Lori wrote: "Roger means well, but he’s heavy handed with Ruby. Doesn’t anyone care about her opinion? Why is everyone telling her she HAS to marry John Crumb? I wonder if this is typical of her class that she ..."

I think that his saying that he had no respect or good opinion of his cousin might make a big difference. I thought that Ruby had in fact been happy with John Crumb until the more handsome (and clean) Felix came along so Roger's visit might make her rethink her ideas.

I was pleasantly surprised by the last scene with Mrs Hurtle-it does make us realize that, although Paul was right in leaving her if he now loves another, she has been ill-used and is perhaps deserving of some happiness. Any chance of her a Felix meeting up? She might make a man of him...

Mrs. Hurtle is one of the most interesting women in the book, now that Trollope has shown us her hidden side. But she still might be up to something, so we shall have to wait and see.
Ruby needs to be protected from Felix, but not in such a heavy handed way. On the other hand, she might have been a a real predicament if she had gone to the dance with Felix.

As for Melmotte, anyone that is expecting money from him will be disappointed. He is living on expectations, false shares and the gullibity of his investors.

Ruby has shown herself to be completely naive as to think that a titled man would marry a country girl like herself. I think she did need a direct, if harsh, lecture about Felix so that she might realize that any daydreams she might have about a future for them are only that. Unfortunately, despite it all she decides she still wants to pursue the relationship.
John Crumb is a hardworking and honorable man. I think he would make a good husband, but Ruby fixates on his deficits- his problem speaking, his lack of physical attractiveness. Based on his reaction to her grandfather’s physical abuse of her, he also would not be a violent husband. However, I agree, if Ruby doesn’t want to marry him, she shouldn’t be forced into it.

I agree that Mrs. Hurtle is one of the most compelling characters in the book. She is obviously a survivor of abuse which has led her to become violent herself. She sees herself as a continual victim of vile men- her former husband and the man in Oregon and who knows who else? The narrator has told us that her stories are mostly true and that she did fall in love with Paul, sadly thinking so little of herself that she pushed him to declare his love and intentions repeatedly. Who can blame her then when Paul abandons her and writes a letter to end their relationship. He knows and admits to himself that he has acted wrongly towards her. Will she have the strength to send the letter she’s written to Paul breaking it off? I’m not sure. Does anyone think that Mrs. Hurtle had to be American? That Trollope would not have written an Englishwoman like this?

I agree that all the women are second class citizens and victims in many ways. Pushed into marriage (Marie, Hetta, Ruby), vilified by rumor and prejudice ( Lady Carbury and Mrs. Hurtle), and physically abused (Lady Carbury, Ruby, Mrs. Hurtle, Madame Melmotte and perhaps Marie). I do think that both Ruby and Mrs. Hurtle have been more intimate with Felix and Paul than would be considered proper. Ruby still maintains she has been a good girl so I’m not sure if she’s had sex with Felix. Mrs. Hurtle is a more likely candidate for that, being older and already having been married as well as spending time with Paul in circumstances that would allow for it.

Linda wrote: "I agree that all the women are second class citizens and victims in many ways. Pushed into marriage (Marie, Hetta, Ruby), vilified by rumor and prejudice ( Lady Carbury and Mrs. Hurtle), and physically abused (Lady Carbury, Ruby, Mrs. Hurtle, Madame Melmotte and perhaps Marie).

What is intriguing about Trollope is that all of these women are portrayed with some degree of sympathy-we might dislike aspects of their character or behaviour, but in every case we have some sympathy and understanding of why they might behave the way they do. This is a contrast to many of the men in the novels-Melmotte, Felix, Dolly Longstaff-they all seem either dishonest, cruel, lazy, entitled or some combinations of the above. Very few heroes present, and certainly none without significant flaws.

I agree that the women seem to be portrayed more sympathetically, but I wonder if there is a gender divide on that? Also, Mrs. Hurtle is portrayed much less sympathetically than the other women even though she shares many of the same motivations and, if we believe her stories as the narrator says we should, she has led a very difficult life. Nevertheless, she is described as having claws, which one reader on another list I follow described as typically misogynistic, and of being a witch capable of both charm and evil. None of the other women are characterized in such terms. Some readers on the same list I referenced have thought that Trollope’s personal hostility to very independent women got in the way of his development and treatment of the character of Mrs. Hurtle. Interesting idea.

Linda wrote: "I agree that the women seem to be portrayed more sympathetically, but I wonder if there is a gender divide on that? Also, Mrs. Hurtle is portrayed much less sympathetically than the other women eve..."

I actually felt that it was a possibly quite honest portrayal of how she was acting, and quite a believable portrait. She is clearly wronged, but once Paul has broken off the engagement and confessed his love for another, what should she do? She fights hard to regain his love and uses all her charms as well as upbraiding him for his betrayal and trying to make him feel guilty-if we felt sympathy for her these would be acceptable actions, if we're on Hetta's side this is all claws and witchery. I think Trollope often succeeds in setting up love triangles in which we feel some sympathy for both the potential suitors-think PF with Madame Max and Lady Laura, or even The Claverings with Harry, Florence and Julia.

You bring up good points about Mrs. Hurtle. I am sympathetic to her situation also. I thought the other viewpoint was interesting to consider. I’ll wait till the end of the book to see how many times I change my mind!
I agree that Phineas, Harry and Paul are all that weak type of Trollope man. I was not a fan of Phineas at all as he continually fell in love with different women. He was lucky that Madame Max fell in love with him. Interesting that she is the only strong woman who gets the man. Mrs. Hurtle, who says she is ambitious for Paul, looks like she will lose out and right now I don’t see Hetta as a strong woman in the same vein, but perhaps we will learn more. Julia was certainly heads above Florence in The Claverings.

Linda wrote: "You bring up good points about Mrs. Hurtle. I am sympathetic to her situation also. I thought the other viewpoint was interesting to consider. I’ll wait till the end of the book to see how many tim..."

Yes, I'm interested to see how Hetta develops-she has at least resisted pressure from her mother and Roger to settle down with him (so far).

We should remember that by English standards Mrs Hurtle certainly isn’t ‘a lady’. Roger is shocked to find her with Paul at Lowestoft. The Victorians regarded American women women as quite fast. Not just Trollope. Henry James’s Daisy Miller and The Europeans employ similar contrasts.

Linda wrote: "You bring up good points about Mrs. Hurtle. I am sympathetic to her situation also. I thought the other viewpoint was interesting to consider. I’ll wait till the end of the book to see how many tim..."

For some reason I liked Phineas (even though I was angry with him sometimes), disliked Harry, and am ambivalent about Paul, but I can't put my finger on why I feel differently about the three.

Lori, I always liked Phineas. 😍

Even though Trollope pushes coincidence a bit far, it’s amusing that Ruby and Mrs Hurtle are under the same roof and both testing the limits of what would be acceptable for women at the time.

This just came to me-the name Mrs. Hurtle has an aggressive sound to me.

Trollope has created several complicated characters with good qualities and faults. With most of these characters, their less endearing qualities are often presented first and the good traits come through in scenes later in the plot.
Roger - he comes off overly strident in his morals and lectures too much. But then, his overall nobility comes through in his actions as in his tolerance toward in protege/rival Paul - he still serves as a mentor when he could easily destroy Paul's chances with Hetta.
Paul - he's presented as a weak philanderer but gradually reveals some indicia of intelligence and moral standards in his relations with Melmotte, Mrs. Hurtle and Roger;
Mrs. Hurtle - yes, she appears scheming and manipulative like a golddigger. But then it is revealed she is not a golddigger but is motivated by actual love. On reflection, It had to be love, though, since Paul has neither gold to dig or a title. maybe superficial love, based on physical beauty and overall pleasantness, but love nonetheless.
Mrs. Carbury - Self-centered, except toward her son, but her decision to reject the marriage proposal shows more depth to her.
Felix - he started out as overly self-centered with no good points and gradually develops into an overly self-centered person with no good points. Oh well, he's an exception, though not the sole one as:
Hetta - no real change from what is initially presented too - just more of an opposite of Felix.
Melmottes - Maria seems stronger in character as the book goes on and her father gets creepier and more manipulative.

In the last discussion thread, moderator Frances stated about Mr. Crumb that "John appears to be the working class version of Roger." In this section, Trollope himself confirms that observation by comparing the two men.
However, I see a great difference in the potential relationships of the two men. While Roger is solid and not exciting, Roger and Hetta are actually well-matched in intelligence and social skills. If Hetta ever could ever find the zing in her heart for him, a relationship could work. On the other hand, John Crumb does not appear to be as quick-witted, intelligent or socially-skilled as Ruby. He is good and solid, but too simple in his manner of thinking that I picture Ruby getting frustrated in a life spent conversing with him. The characters seem to think that a lower-class woman should have lower expectations of what to get out of a marital relationship.

I think that Hetta sees Roger more as an uncle or friend than as a suitor.

Brian wrote: "The characters seem to think that a lower-class woman should have lower expectations of what to get out of a marital relationship."

Exactly. It frustrates me that no one in the book seems to acknowledge that Ruby might prefer (and deserve to have) a more intelligent and interesting man (but one closer to her own class; not Felix's). But it was probably a realistic expectation for the times (possibly still of our own times, to some extent). If Hetta continues to refuse Roger, and Paul doesn't come through, Hetta has the option to stay home (though her mother might make her life miserable).

Lori, I think her mother would make Hetta's life miserable, unless she finally realizes what a scoundrel she has for a son.
I can see Felix coming to a very bad end, before the end of the book.

Lori wrote: "Brian wrote: "The characters seem to think that a lower-class woman should have lower expectations of what to get out of a marital relationship."

Exactly. It frustrates me that no one in the book ..."

I'm hoping that perhaps we're underestimating John Crumb, that his slow speech may be more accent +/-shyness than stupidity. He does run his own business and sounds quite good at it, both in terms of doing the work but also with respect to his business sense. I just wonder how else Ruby would meet another eligible young man-how would that happen in London or in her village?

I get the impression that John Crumb is a respected figure in the village.

He's perfect for Ruby; if only she could learn of Felix's complete selfishness.

I hope Ruby's eyes are opened to Felix's true character before she does something really foolish.

He certainly lacks excitement in his speech and looks. Ruby wants the clean face and handsomeness of Felix, and it would help if John could make conversation. But better to have him than the quagmire of misery Felix would give her. A young girl often can't see those things until it is too late. In a later world than hers, she could move up through a career, giving her better romantic prospects as well, with her cleverness and prettiness.

Theresa wrote: "He certainly lacks excitement in his speech and looks. Ruby wants the clean face and handsomeness of Felix, and it would help if John could make conversation. But better to have him than the quagmimire of misery Felix would give her."

So it is either John Crumb or Felix?? Nobody here thinks Felix is a better option if that's Ruby's only choices in life. Especially since Felix is not even an option. The point is why does everybody in the story, and I guess on line, seem to think John Crumb is her only option to a life of misery.

So far Trollope hasn't let her meet any other prospective suitors. We live in hope...

Brian wrote: "The point is why does everybody in the story, and I guess on line, seem to think John Crumb is her only option to a life of misery."

Exactly. I'm kind of hoping Mrs. Hurtle takes her to America. It would be an adventure for her (one that doesn't involve Felix), and she may eventually meet someone she likes. But since most Trollope heroines end up in a domestic situation rather than an adventure, I'm guessing she'll marry John Crumb.

Ruby’s situation underscores the ongoing lack of choice and harsh reality a woman faced at the time, no matter what their social class. She has no family other than her grandfather who is abusive and wants her married and out of his house. Therefore, she cannot live out her life in her parents’ home as an upper class unmarried daughter might be able to. Her foolish daydreams of marrying a titled gentleman will come to nothing so her choices are either marrying someone of her own class or finding work to support herself. True, she doesn’t have to marry John Crumb if she can’t love him or recognize his good and honorable qualities. Nor should she as he deserves a wife who would be able to love him. But realistically her chances of meeting other marriage possibilities are not huge and she should take this into account. Also, what type of job would she be able to secure? Probably as some sort of servant in a poorer household as she has no education or social graces. This is a pretty dismal picture, but I think reflects the situation women faced as second class citizens.

A life as a servant would be much harder on Ruby. She would be very vulnerable without an aunt to keep an eye on her.

Linda, I think your assessment of Ruby's situation is absolutely correct.

Unfortunately, life is difficult for all of the female characters, reflecting, as many have said, the times. :(

I like Lori's idea of Mrs Hurtle and Ruby going to America.