Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club discussion

“I heard once… a good story loops around, to tie up its end with its opening.”
“I know all about stories that are both an end and a beginning.”

And our April read, Beginnings, is both a beginning and an ending (we hope not!) to a series. Beginnings picks up close to eleven years after the Art of Detection. Kate is now fifty-two while her daughter is fifteen and showing budding signs of a detective’s mind. When Nora asks a question about Kate’s long-dead little sister Patty, Kate is confronted with some uncomfortable questions about her past…

I’m really looking forward to this month’s discussion! Since Beginnings is a novella, feel free to discuss the entire series. I think we can forgo the ten-day spoiler-free discussion and maybe just wait five days. AND Laurie will be dropping by for a general Q&A towards the end of the month! So have some questions ready for her, on any topic.

Before reading Beginnings, I found myself expecting a prequel for some reason. But it’s not. It’s both a sequel and a prequel (is there a word for that?). Do you agree with the above? That all good stories loop around to tie up its end to its opening?

And we get to hear Kate’s ‘voice’ for the first time. What did you think of the switch from third person to first person in the series? And do you have a favorite Kate Martinelli novel?

I'm looking forward to reading it shortly, after I finish what I'm currently reading. I've always loved the whole Martinelli series, after I got past my initial hesitance about how a straight writer would portray Kate's world (no offense, Laurie - I've just been burned too many times before). I hope this isn't the end for Kate - although I do love a well-built world where the ending fits with the beginning, since that is often lacking in real life. But that's part of what I love about all of Laurie's books, the way the characters grow and stories overlap to make the series more than a set of stand-alone situations, so I'm going into this expecting the same thing. I've enjoyed all of the Martinelli novels, but I think my favorite so far has been To Play the Fool - it's so high-concept that it could have come across as pretentious, but it's totally the opposite, and the actual mystery part is one of my favorites across all of Laurie's books. So I'm greatly looking forward to revisiting Kate's world this month!

Sabrina wrote: "“What did you think of the switch from third person to first person in the series? And do you have a favorite Kate Martinelli novel?."

I always find it jarring when the POV I'm used to for a particular character or series changes, but only for a moment here. I think the short format helped.

Based on the number of times I've read it, I'd have to say With Child is my favorite of the series. I think there's something about the relationship between Julie and Kate that drew me in. Plus Kate struggling to find herself again after being so focused on Lee and her recovery for so long. Great character development!

I must confess that I haven't read the first four Kate Martinelli novels. I know, it's an egregious error of my reading life. I did love The Art of Detection though, and Beginnings was a great read, too. I found Laurie's writings with the Russell and Holmes series, with which I fell completely and forever in love, I've also read the Harris Stuyvesant books and thoroughly enjoyed those. I'm hoping now that the focus is on Kate and Lee again, I'll be able to go back and pick up the unread books in the series. And, I won't mind the spoilers in the discussion since I've read the two later works and know some important parts of the characters' histories. I'm looking forward to this discussion.

Megan wrote: "I'm looking forward to reading it shortly, after I finish what I'm currently reading. I've always loved the whole Martinelli series, after I got past my initial hesitance about how a straight write..."

Glad you can join the discussion this month, Megan! And I loved To Play the Fool too. Brother Erasmus was such an interesting character. Not to mention that it delved into SF's homeless society.

Can I ask what mistakes straight writers usually make when writing a character in the LGBT community? As a writer myself, I always try to be aware of cultural and lifestyle sensitivity, so I never pass up a chance for further insights.

Erin wrote: Based on the number of times I've read it, I'd have to say With Child is my favorite of the series. I think there's something about the relationship between Julie and Kate that drew me in.

Loved With Child, Erin! I always thought her experience with Jules made her more open to having a child of her own. What do you think?

Kathy wrote: "I must confess that I haven't read the first four Kate Martinelli novels. I know, it's an egregious error of my reading life. I did love The Art of Detection though, and Beginnings was a great read..."

I think you will be alright spoiler-wise, Kathy. Especially if you already read The Art of Detection. Glad you can join us this month.

I've enjoyed the series, and this one, but have to confess: When I read the first book (A Grave Talent) I was half way through before I figured out Kate was gay. My girlfriend says she got that a whole lot quicker, but then things are often that way between us -- I spend a lot of time face down in the mashed potatoes. ;-\

When I read the first book (A Grave Talent) I was half way through before I figured out Kate was gay.

I, also, was a ways in before I realized it and actually was glad of it. There was no Big Reveal, it was just Kate's life as she lived it. As anyone's sexuality should be. Just their life as they live it. No big deal, nothing for others to judge. (I know, living in a fantasy over here, but let a girl dream, please!)

Sabrina wrote: "Glad you can join the discussion this month, Megan! And I loved To Play the Fool too. Brother Erasmus was such an interesting character. Not to mention that it delved into SF's homeless society.

Can I ask what mistakes straight writers usually make when writing a character in the LGBT community? As a writer myself, I always try to be aware of cultural and lifestyle sensitivity, so I never pass up a chance for further insights."

Now that it's a new month of Hoopla borrows, I'm watching some old episodes of Father Brown that I missed, and I happened to watch one last night from Season 2 - "The Maddest of Them All." The primary mystery is quite different from To Play the Fool, but there is a character that made me wonder if the Father Brown writers might have read TPtF. I won't say more to avoid spoiling anything on either the book or show front, but if anyone else has seen that episode, did you think that, too?

As to your question, Sabrina - generally speaking, it's the same issue that tends to come up with anyone writing from the perspective of a group they're not part of. There's a tendency to either rely on stereotypes (All lesbians have mullets and wear flannel! And spend their weekends working on their motorcycles! And are depressed! And are either completely promiscuous or move in together on the first date!), or to straight-splain that it's just fine with them that the character is gay because the author is so enlightened that they don't think about things like that (that comes across like people who say they "don't see color," FYI) - so there's an emphasis on the enlightenment and benevolence of the author and their straight characters rather than the experiences of the gay character themselves. And of course, that perennial favorite: they all die at the end/bury your gays.

The solution (presuming that we're talking about something other than specifically a coming out story, which is a whole other topic), as demonstrated with Laurie's writing of Kate and illustrated by William and KarenB's responses above, is to write a character just like you would write any other character, and if being gay happens to be part of their characterization, to include it only to the extent you would include any other similar aspect of the character (being married, having children, having a physical disability, etc.) rather than making it the sole focus of their story.

I hope that helps - I don't want to make this entire conversation about Kate's sexuality, since that's not the focus of these books (I haven't started Beginnings yet, so I presume that is also the case there).

For anyone who hasn’t bought “Beginnings” yet, I’ve kept the e-book at $.99 for the next few days, but it’ll soon go back to its normal price.
Laurie

Sabrina wrote: "I always thought her experience with Jules made her more open to having a child of her own. What do you think?"

I never got the parent/child vibe from them. I think Jules was more of a stand-in for Kate's younger sister. Which, actually, is kind of interesting in relationship to Beginnings because Kate's description of herself as a teenager is so different from what I expected given her behavior in With Child (the motorcycle!).

KarenB wrote: "When I read the first book (A Grave Talent) I was half way through before I figured out Kate was gay.

I, also, was a ways in before I realized it and actually was glad of it. There was no Big Reve..."

Brava! I decided in the '70s, living near Loring Park in Minneapolis, that others' sexuality was only my business if I was going to enter into a relationship. I did feel a bit foolish, though, when I was doltishly unaware of friends status as more than roommates. I'd love us to get to a time when love is love and we leave each others to express it as they wish.
Loved this book's attention to the past, much worthy of exploring. <3

Megan wrote: write a character just like you would write any other character,

Thanks, Megan! And KarenB and William for your insights. That's what I figured it was, but just wanted to see if there was anything else.

Really, that rule applies to every character regardless of race, sexuality, or gender. And always avoiding stereotypes. I don't find it so much in mystery books, but movies always make me cringe.

Al could have easily been a stereotyped character too. The 'gruff male police detective who loves sports and greasy food', but as always, Laurie brings characters alive and makes them multi-faceted.

Mary wrote: Loved this book's attention to the past, much worthy of exploring. <3

So true! It was a trip down memory lane with mentions of things like 'polaroids' and 'pay phones'. LOL.

Sabrina wrote: "Kathy wrote: "I must confess that I haven't read the first four Kate Martinelli novels. I know, it's an egregious error of my reading life. I did love The Art of Detection though, and Beginnings wa..."

I only read a couple Kate Martinelli novels, including A Grave Talent, so it was easy to read Beginnings, especially as there are not many characters.

Erin wrote: "Which, actually, is kind of interesting in relationship to Beginnings because Kate's description of herself as a teenager is so different from what I expected given her behavior in With Child (the motorcycle!)

True, Erin. Kate came across as Patty's mother figure almost. Do you think that's the older Kate looking back on past with distorted glasses?

Antoinette wrote:I only read a couple Kate Martinelli novels, including A Grave Talent, so it was easy to read Beginnings, especially as there are not many characters.

Glad you can join the discussion, Antoinette!

What does everyone think of Kate, Lee, and Al's character growth throughout the series? I was thinking this series spans a number of years in comparison to others. We see Kate going from a rookie investigator to a seasoned detective. How did you feel seeing a 52 year-old Kate and a semi-retired Al?

Sabrina wrote: "Antoinette wrote:I only read a couple Kate Martinelli novels, including A Grave Talent, so it was easy to read Beginnings, especially as there are not many characters.

Glad you can join the discu..."

I was shocked to see Kate so old. Will she be younger in the next book?

Megan, you nailed it when you said, “... is to write a character just like you would write any other character, and if being gay happens to be part of their characterization, to include it only to the extent you would include any other similar aspect of the character (being married, having children, having a physical disability, etc.) rather than making it the sole focus of their story.”

I knew from the get go that Kate was a Lesbian, because a Lesbian friend of mine with a passion for mysteries turned me on to the books. I was skeptical that a non-Lesbian could really write about one, and pleased that Ms. King pulled it off from the beginning and continues to do so.

I respect what you said about not wanting to make this about Kate’s sexual orientation, but it’s so affirming to read about a female detective who just happens to be a Lesbian rather than a Lesbian who just happens to be a detective.

Megan wrote: "But that's part of what I love about all of Laurie's books, the way the characters grow and stories overlap to make the series more than a set of stand-alone situations...”

Megan, this is one of my favorite things about Ms. King’s books—finding ties between them! Did anyone else see a tie between Folly and any of the Kate Martinelli series? I did, but then, maybe I was just projecting something that wasn’t there. When we get to the end of the month, that might be one of my questions for Ms. King.

Sabrina wrote: "What did you think of the switch from third person to first person in the series? And do you have a favorite Kate Martinelli novel?”

It’s been quite a while since I read one from the series, so I had forgotten that they were third person. The switch was seamless from my point of view. It WAS Kate’s voice as I remember her from the books.

I have a hard time picking favorites, but TPtF might be my fav KM book, mostly from the linguistic perspective. It’s almost like Bro. Erasmus was speaking in tongues or code. As a sometimes student of Hebrew Scripture and the New Testament, I was amazed at how much he was able to communicate by reciting scripture.

[Sorry to break in here, but for those of you who didn't notice my Announcement thread post:
My US publishers are doing a Goodreads giveaway that ends April 30:
https://www.goodreads.com/giveaway/en...

Good luck, all!)

Antoinette wrote:I was shocked to see Kate so old. Will she be younger in the next book?

That would be a great question for Laurie towards end of month! Beginnings did sort of skip like 11 years...

Dayna wrote: "Sabrina wrote: "s a sometimes student of Hebrew Scripture and the New Testament, I was amazed at how much he was able to communicate by reciting scripture.

That was pretty amazing! And I think he used writers too, didn't he? Like Shakespeare? Or maybe I'm mistaken. That was he same with last month's read and the creepy letters that were drawn from all sorts of different texts. I mean today... It's fairly easy to do a Google search of 'bible quotes on courage' or some such and get an answer, but before the internet that would be a feat.

What did you all think of the differences in technology from first book to this? IE: Nora's simple Google search on Patty. How has technology changed the mystery genre?

I just want to say how much I enjoy reading everyone's comments. It makes a wonderful reading experience even more savory. ❤️

Sabrina wrote: "That would be a great question for Laurie towards end of month! Beginnings did sort of skip like 11 years..."

I had the same thought when The Art of Detection came out; that there was a HUGE time gap since Night Work with Lee and Kate apparently having sold their amazing house on Russian Hill and creating a toddler.

That said, however, in all of these books, Kate tends to throw herself completely at these extreme cases. Which is great for the story, but I imagine her life likely wouldn't be what it becomes if she was completely living the job like Holmes.

Dayna wrote: "Megan wrote: "But that's part of what I love about all of Laurie's books, the way the characters grow and stories overlap to make the series more than a set of stand-alone situations...”

Megan, th..."

Yes!! I saw that in Folly, too - so if we both saw it, we didn't imagine it. :) That is my favorite thing - when an author's books are all set in the same world, so even the narratively unrelated characters can be aware of each other and interact on some level. It makes me think that they've built the world beyond just what's on the page, which makes for the best reading experience. Jasper Fforde does it to a crazy extent, but also Deanna Raybourn, Mollie Cox Bryan, and I'm sure many others that I'm not thinking off off the top of my head.

Holly wrote: "I just want to say how much I enjoy reading everyone's comments. It makes a wonderful reading experience even more savory. ❤️"

Glad you can join us, Holly! And I feel the same way. Book discussions always give me new insights to books I read.

Erin wrote: Which is great for the story, but I imagine her life likely wouldn't be what it becomes if she was completely living the job like Holmes.

That's a really good point, Erin! Holmes and Russell throw themselves into every case and barely have had time to pause. If Kate did that she definitely wouldn't still be married... It seems like she's found a work/life balance. I like how she tried to get home for dinner every evening, etc.

Megan wrote:Yes!! I saw that in Folly, too - so if we both saw it, we didn't imagine it. :)

Ooh, what was the connection, Dayna and Megan? I thought Rae from Folly was Kate's mentioned Aunt up north, but someone dashed my hopes and dreams in another discussion. I just want Rae to be Kate's aunt so badly!

Sabrina wrote: "Megan wrote:Yes!! I saw that in Folly, too - so if we both saw it, we didn't imagine it. :)

Ooh, what was the connection, Dayna and Megan? I thought Rae from Folly was Kate's mentioned Aunt up no..."

I thought it was explicitly stated somewhere, but I can't find it in a quick flip through With Child - it's been a minute since I read it, so I can't recall exactly where it was - or maybe it was in Folly itself? Do you remember, Dayna?

Hi Everyone - This is Jennifer. I'm going to take this conversation in a completely different direction ... I loved the book, but felt a little melancholy when I finished. Over a few days after I finished, I was reminded of and thought of occurrences from my past that I didn't really examine that closely when it happened but that shaped my life. I've come to terms with much of it, both things I did and things that happened to me, but this book brought some of those issues to light again. Did anyone else have that happen?

I think everyone has had ample time to read Beginnings, so we can open up the discussion to spoilers now!

Jennifer wrote: "Hi Everyone - This is Jennifer. I'm going to take this conversation in a completely different direction ... I loved the book, but felt a little melancholy when I finished. Over a few days after I f..."

It's amazing how books can affect us like that, Jennifer. I had a similar experience with Folly.

To go along with Jennifer's comment, one of the questions that I kept asking myself during Beginnings and I've often wondered about...

With so many current-day crimes, is it worth it to solve Cold Cases? Kate seemed content to let things lie, until Nora started picking away at a scab and opening an old wound. Should the past stay there or are there benefits to dredging it up?

Megan wrote: I thought it was explicitly stated somewhere, but I can't find it in a quick flip through With Child -

I hope Dayna can remember! If not, it might be a good question for Laurie towards end of the month.

I confess to some satisfaction when someone who thought himself immune from consequences is finally brought to justice, and I think it sends a message to perps and victims alike that justice, while sometimes delayed, will come. Balancing limited resources would be tricky to compute, so I'm glad I don't have to do that job.

I confess that I imagine a Kavanaugh-like breakdown when the case comes to court . . . outrage at actually facing consequences for his actions.

(Sorry all, breaking in for another giveaway mention: MWA's Deadly Anniversary, which has a new Russell & Holmes story in it, here: https://www.goodreads.com/giveaway/sh... )

I found Beginnings to be a fascinating backstory of Kate’s teenage years, but it brought back memories that I wish I could forget. I left the Central Valley for the Bay Area during my college years and have never regretted it. Classmates who stayed there along with my family resented me for leaving and for having a career that would have been very difficult to accomplish there.

I must admit that I loved the idea of justice catching up with predators and this has happened this past year, with Weinstein now in prison.

Cold cases definitely feel like justice catching up; especially in fiction.

But then I also think in real life it would be really hard for the victims of violent crime to get dragged back into an investigation again after they've gone through counselling or whatever and have tried to get on with their lives. Like I'm sure everyone would be happy to see on the news that the person they were pretty sure did something terrible finally got arrested, but not if they, the victim, had to be dragged through investigation and trial and all that again.

But then for like missing persons cold cases, I'm sure that the friends and family of the missing appreciate finally getting an answer. You always hear that it's harder not to know anything.

Or in Kate's case where it was written down as an accident, but turns out to be a cover-up. But really, how often does that actually happen outside of fiction, do you think?

Mary wrote: "I confess that I imagine a Kavanaugh-like breakdown when the case comes to court . . . outrage at actually facing consequences for his actions."
Ah, if only Kavanaugh had been tried in a court room, found quilty & hauled off to prison instead of sitting on the highest bench & allowing 45*'s crimes against all of us to continue.

Sabrina wrote: "And I think he used writers too, didn't he? Like Shakespeare?“

I seem to recall that once or twice he could not come up with scripture and may have quoted from a Shakespeare sonnet.

Sabrina wrote: "Megan wrote:Yes!! I saw that in Folly, too - so if we both saw it, we didn't imagine it. :)

Ooh, what was the connection, Dayna and Megan? I thought Rae from Folly was Kate's mentioned Aunt up no..."

I can’t remember which Martinelli book it was in, but Lee goes off for the summer to recuperate and she returns from an isolated island near Seattle(?). I had already read Folly at that time and wondered if the island was the one where Folly took place.

Another link between Martinelli and the stand-alones was in Lockdown. The police chief in that book contacts Kate about one of the other characters (I’m fuzzy on who or why).

Dayna wrote: "Sabrina wrote: "Megan wrote:Yes!! I saw that in Folly, too - so if we both saw it, we didn't imagine it. :)

Ooh, what was the connection, Dayna and Megan? I thought Rae from Folly was Kate's ment..."

The Lockdown situation was what I was thinking of, Dayna - thank you!! I had it in my head that it was the sheriff in Folly who called her, and thought I was going crazy when I couldn't find it. Now it's all coming back to me!!

Megan wrote: "Dayna wrote: "Sabrina wrote: "Megan wrote:Yes!! I saw that in Folly, too - so if we both saw it, we didn't imagine it. :)

Ooh, what was the connection, Dayna and Megan? I thought Rae from Folly w..."

Oooh, that's right! Kate did make an appearance in Lockdown! And I sure hope that's the case about the island and Folly connection, Dayna. I love it when favorite characters interact with each other.

I've always thought how cool would it be if all authors had to do was give an OK to other authors that they could use a character in a scene. I know there is at least one 'openworld' romance series that allows authors to write in the created world and use other characters. Wouldn't that be neat if, for example, Laurie could have used Lord Peter Wimsey more in the Mary Russell books?

Terisoares55 wrote: "I found Beginnings to be a fascinating backstory of Kate’s teenage years, but it brought back memories that I wish I could forget. I left the Central Valley for the Bay Area during my college years..."

Oooh, definitely in the Weinstein case. Especially, because the victims were still alive.

I think of the Brock Turner case, and it reminded me of Mark Fields... White, successful, 'Oooh the poor boy', and gets off with a little slap to the wrist.

Do you all think Mark Fields was convicted? I really liked that it left it up in the air.

Erin wrote: "Or in Kate's case where it was written down as an accident, but turns out to be a cover-up. But really, how often does that actually happen outside of fiction, do you think

I agree, Erin. Cases of disappearance would be SO horrible. No closure. And in cases where the victim is still alive is always satisfying when the perpetrator is brought to justice.

But I was kind of mixed with Kate's sister's case. I guess maybe it was secretly lurking in the back of Kate's mind as unresolved, and it's always good to drag bad things into the light, eventually, no matter how painful. Do you think she was better off knowing the truth?

Laurie wrote: "(Sorry all, breaking in for another giveaway mention: MWA's Deadly Anniversary, which has a new Russell & Holmes story in it, here: https://www.goodreads.com/giveaway/sh......"

All these Giveaways are great, Laurie! Thanks for putting them on here.

If I remember correctly, the killer was being charged in San Francisco (where Kate works) rather than the local community where the murder happened. While that may be attractive to the small town (murder trials are expensive) does it actually work in our legal system?