Hotel Irrealismo discussion

Dear Hotel Residents

I've just finished my umpteenth (well, third, at least) read of If on a winter's night...

I believe Klowey and Steve have read the book and Gregory intends to. Steve has posted some preliminary thoughts. So what did we think?

By the way, nobody else posted their Ten Irrealist Ficciones in the first discussion. Anybody up for doing that?

All the best and I hope you're keeping safe

Paul

Klowey says she didn't like the romance sections. I'm assuming she means the Reader/Ludmilla relationship and this perhaps extends to On a carpet of leaves and Around an empty grave, which have the whiff of male fantasy about them... I can imagine these might be annoying from a female perspective. It's one regard in which If on a winter's night is very much of its time - from a certain culture and outlook. What does anyone else think? How far does it detract from the novel's power?

Steve says the writer-reader relationship currently strikes him as the most interesting aspect. I enjoyed this very much too - it's far more entertaining to have this relationship explored through fiction than in a dry academic paper on semiotics. What have people enjoyed most about the book?

For me, one thing that hasn't dated is the humour. Humour is a facet of culture that often ages very badly (think of Will Shakespeare's "comedies" or the great works of Benny Hill). On this re-read, I found myself grinning on many occasions. My favourite section is the one with Lotaria/Gertrude/Corrina and the revolutionaries, counter-revolutionaries and impostors. I also think the Borgesian tale of the plutocrat in his world of mirrors is very funny. Did other people find the book amusing or not?

Oh, and I just re-read Invisible Cities by Calvino and posted my review.

I agree about the humor; don't know how many times I laughed out loud reading this wonderful work. The sections Paul mentions are funny; Lotaria was generally a funny character (and the only really sympathetic character for me). Her description of a long neck and bird face reminded me of Thoth the Egyptian god of writing.

But I would say now, currently, what interests me most about this novel about novels are the themes of entropy and narrative (or are they somehow the same?).

To posit entropy as a theme is speculative on my part, I suppose. The first Calvino I read was an edition of 'T Zero', published in 1970 as a mass market paperback. I bought it used on a whim in the 70s or 80s. It was classified as 'Science Fiction' so I've always thought of Calvino as a writer of Science Fiction--really, really good Science Fiction. So when I read any Calvino I sniff around for science references--to Physics especially. (I'm not a scientist myself)

I love the 'hypocrite I' term. I is the main character and I is a deeply inconsistent and troublesome actor. At times (especially in the "What story down there . . ." chapter) the I seems to be an agent of entropy -- or maybe the personification of entropy.

The I first appears in the smoky Cimmerian lands (which as all lovers of Homer know, is the approach to the land of the dead) and he isn't looking for Tiresias; he isn't looking for knowledge or information. He's looking for an empty suitcase. He wants to lose information.

The novel IS funny but has some dark currents.

Remember, the password is 'Zeno of Elea' -- so this discussion may never end!

Steve wrote: "But I would say now, currently, what interests me most about this novel about novels are the themes of entropy and narrative (or are they somehow the same?)."

Do you know, that's exactly the conclusion I reached about Life a User's Manual on my last reading? It must be something to do with taking a mathematical philosophical perspective, since entropy is an essential feature of the universe. I hadn't really thought of that in relation to If.... Interesting - I shall ponder that.

Calvino is a writer of the fantastic, for sure, so not too far away from SF. I suppose when you stop to think about it, his works are almost all speculative in one sense or another too. As you say, Steve, the really good SF (not space cowboys/Star Wars). I've never possessed T Zero. I shall have to track down a copy of that...

We ought to reach a synthesis if we're referring to the dialectic. On the other hand, if we're discussing the novel as one of Zeno's Paradoxes, we could be here for several centuries.

Agreed that all of the opening scenarios are pretty dark, none of them a comfort read.

Wonderful comments Paul and Steve. Let me add mine tomorrow.

My partner has covid-19 so we are struggling a bit since we live in the same house. I suspect I have or will get it, but hoping for asymptomatic, which I am so far.

I listed 10 books I've read or would like to (on the other discussion). You'll have to tell me if they fit the Irrealismo definition.

Looking forward to your comments, Klowey. I hope you and your partner are soon fully restored to health.

Here goes. I know Paul and Steve are more experienced with this literature and I really appreciate your time and comments.


The publication date of 1979 does make more sense now regarding the attitude of a guy's fantasies about women. Though, at 56 years old I think I expected him to be more of the restrained academic type, sort of Vittorio di Sica in "The Earrings of Mme De . . . ", a real gentleman.

I was taken aback reading the first few chapters at how pleased I was with his humor which I hadn't expected from Vittorio di Sica in "The Earrings of Mme De . . . ". It kind of reminded me of Vonnegut or others (though I have read less than Steve and Paul I'm sure). I very much liked his humor throughout. So I guess I agree with you both that the humor stands up to time. And I'm thrilled to find another person who thinks that Will Shakespeare's "comedies" don't hold up well.

I was Ok with the Reader/Ludmilla relationship in the beginning. Less so later, but I think it was his later male-female relatsionships in the "books being read" that I kind of took offense to.

Steve mentioned "phenomenon of our consciousness, individual and shared". And here we are, in a group, because we want to share our personal-individual experiences of reading books with each other, because it broadens the experience. With authors I really admire I want to know more about what they thought of their work. There are a number of interviews and videos of Borges talking about his work. I wish someone had interviewed Kafka. Some say he left his work to Max Brod because he knew Max would not burn it, as Kafka had requested.

The writer-reader relationship was by far my most favorite part of the book. I was impressed with how the meta-conversation seems to be limitless.

I have some topics I'd love feedback on - a few things that reminded me of Borges.

In Chapter 1 he rattles off a list of types of books (e.g. books that haven't been written, etc.). I absolutely loved that and it reminded me of Borges list of animals.

Then in Chapter 7 (or 6 depending on how you're counting) he mentions an author as the reincarnation of Homer. Borges talks about this in "The Immortal" but now I am wondering if this 'rumor' or the theory that Homer never died is more widespread than Calvino and Borges; and if so, why.

I also think that who the author actually "is" threads through Borges works. And then there are the writers who never publish or don't publish much during their lifetimes (again Kafka) and those who don't finish books - again Kafka but also others (Man Without Qualities by Musil?). And what does writing mean then. I like IOAWNAT for exploring these topics.

Finally, since you are both much more knowledgeable than I am about Oulipo, I was wondering what you think of this reviewer's analysis from her 2014 update.

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

It's a bit over my head but looks interesting and I wonder if our discussion of LAUM will be similar as I have seen several diagrams of the book.

"The I first appears in the smoky Cimmerian lands (which as all lovers of Homer know, is the approach to the land of the dead) and he isn't looking for Tiresias; he isn't looking for knowledge or information. He's looking for an empty suitcase. He wants to lose information."

WOW. I don't know Homer's works (though I think I'm going to have to rectify that). That's fascinating. And it does relate to entropy.

Klowey wrote: "I was wondering what you think of this reviewer's analysis from her 2014 update."

Fionnuala often has interesting things to say about HI-type books. The apparatus outlined there is a structure generator. I would say it has more to do with semiotics than anything. Signifier and signified are from de Saussure, originally. A long time ago, I used to teach that stuff to pre-university students. It certainly fits with the search for "a new allegorical language" that I've just referred to in our discussion of "ten irrealist fictions".

As I mentioned, one could dedicate years of study just to aspects of the book such as its mathematical construction (and many students have). I don't feel equipped to say anything meaningful about this aspect. I need a comprehensive biography of Calvino to cut to the quick on these things. Do we know of one? Bellos's magnificent biography of Perec does just that with Life, outlining some of the methods the novelist used to create his masterwork.

Klowey wrote: "I also think that who the author actually "is" threads through Borges works. And then there are the writers who never publish or don't publish much during their lifetimes (again Kafka) and those who don't finish books..."

There's no doubt that Borges was a huge influence on Calvino, and Kafka was too. I think we could make a case for those two grand masters as the founders of the irreal. Off the top of my head, I think it was the unfinished novels that weren't published in Kafka's lifetime. Much of his short fiction was published, I believe. And the short works were complete, generally. He clearly didn't care about what publishers wanted, and thank God for that. What a dull thing literature would be if it were all shaped by the dictates of commerce.

Klowey wrote: "I am wondering if this 'rumor' or the theory that Homer never died is more widespread than Calvino and Borges; and if so, why."

I've read Homer but I don't have a clue about that! As an aside, Ismail Kadare wrote a fabulous book riffing on Homer's legacy called The File on H.. Kadare is another writer whom we should probably invite to the Hotel.

I've just read 'The Immortal'. Should there be a new discussion thread for that?

'Zeno of Elea' might be the best joke in the book ('mutters through clenched teeth, "Zeno of Elea"') - but you have to read through IOAWNAT to appreciate it.

I think it's very likely that Calvino was referencing Borges; Paul has pointed out the Borgesian mirrors story, and one story has a South American knife fight. And I wouldn't be surprised (and would like to see a study) if other authors were referenced.

Most popular 'romances' are really creepy when you think about it, full of obsessive 'true love' and such. Considering that both the Reader and the 'I' of at least two stories are described as snakes or 'snake-like', my guess is that Calvino was pointing out the basic creepiness of romantic cliches (especially the male part). Think this is worth a thesis? Calvino's depiction of romance? Or at least an article in a Journal of Calvino studies. Hmm, is there such a journal? Probably in Italian. Yes, I would like to learn Italian.

And the Reader marrying Ludmilla just to stay alive and end the damn book. Ain't that romantic. A bit funny, really, but no not in the least romantic.

Never heard elsewhere about Homer still being alive. Well, actually, the works are still alive.

I don't want to get too pedantic (and Paul probably already knows this) but the Iliad and the Odyssey are now considered to be works of an oral tradition that were later written down. 'Homer' is the traditional name of the 'author' but it's now accepted by classicists (since about the 80s) that these two works are the magnificent outcomes of an oral tradition.

Also the 'Arabian Nights': I stumbled onto a book in the 90s which is reviewed here: https://www.meforum.org/835/the-thous.... It's right out of IOAWNAT. Both Calvino and Borges were influenced (entranced?) by the 'Nights', so it seems appropriate to mention here. Personally, I find the Indian epic Mahabharata a more interesting example of endless narratives within narratives within narratives; but that's another discussion.

Steve wrote: "I've just read 'The Immortal'. Should there be a new discussion thread for that?"

Ha ha - I feel this is going to be difficult to keep up with, Steve! Haven't we only just begun discussing 'If on a winter's night a traveller'? I thought that you and Klowey had decided that 'Life a User's Manual' was next and after that Borges's fiction. Consequently, I made a start on 'Labyrinths'. I'll skip through to 'The Immortal', then (it's some years since I read it) and start a discussion page for it.

Many irrealist-type writers wrote short fiction. I think it could work well if we discussed just particular stories - like The Immortal - rather than complete collections to allow us to dig a little deeper. What do we think?

Steve wrote: "I don't want to get too pedantic but the Iliad and the Odyssey are now considered to be works of an oral tradition that were later written down."

Yes, that's kind of the premise behind 'The File on H.', as I recall.

Steve wrote: "I think it's very likely that Calvino was referencing Borges; Paul has pointed out the Borgesian mirrors story, and one story has a South American knife fight. And I wouldn't be surprised (and would like to see a study) if other authors were referenced."

Yes, the knife fight story must surely be a tribute to 'The South' by Borges. I've read in a number of places that the 'novel' chapters were pastiches/tributes to various authors. According to Wikipedia, Calvino himself mentioned the following in his correspondence: Mikhail Bulgakov, Yasunari Kawabata, Jun'ichirō Tanizaki, Juan Rulfo, José María Arguedas, Jorge Luis Borges and G.K. Chesterton. I can see 'On the carpet of leaves illuminated by the moon' as a parody of Kawabata. I'm afraid to say, I don't know enough about those other writers to comment. 'Looks down in the gathering shadow' could surely be any of a million pulp noir works. Knowing Calvino, though, I wouldn't necessarily take what he says too literally. Can we spot any other candidates in there?

Mahabharata sounds fun - I think I shall have to investigate at some point.

Sorry, not only am I retired, but since I'm sequestered due to the virus I don't even work part-time in the bookstore anymore. So I have plenty of time to read. And I read many things at once.

I am reading LAUM and am almost half way through. And I just gave a tentative comment on 'The Immortal'.

Thanks for passing on the Wikipedia info. Besides Borges, I've read some Chesterton, and 'The Master and the Margarita' by Bulgakov, so I'll wade back into IOAWNAT to see if anything rings a bell. And I think you're right that there is also pulp noir influence. As another candidate: what about Le Carre (pulp spy thriller)? The first story had an espionage feel.

Steve wrote: "Sorry, not only am I retired, but since I'm sequestered due to the virus I don't even work part-time in the bookstore anymore. So I have plenty of time to read. And I read many things at once..."

Ha ha, no worries.

I typed that without thinking - I've read The Master and Margarita too. I can't think which beginning from IOAWNAT that corresponds to, though.

Le Carre? Good call - maybe.

Rereading now and loving it. Plan to add more later.

Klowey wrote: "Rereading now and loving it. Plan to add more later."

It repays re-reading pretty much every year, I'd say, Klowey. It's so amusing too.

On a reread - one of the best novels I've ever read!
I'll blame my original assessment on my long-COVID severe brain fog. ;-)

If any of you ever want to examine Calvino's method for structuring this novel, let me know.

This review provides some info on that task:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

From the wikipedia entry:
The book was also influenced by the author's membership in the literary group Oulipo.[fn] The structure of the text is said to be an adaptation of the structural semiology of A.J. Greimas.[fn]

fn:
Calvino, Italo. Comment j'ai écrit un de mes Livres, Bibliothèque oulipienne; cited in Paul Fournel's preface to the French translation of the book, Éditions du Seuil

I should finish it sometime

Continuing LAUM

I think IOAWN requires an awake brain. Also, one chapter at a time worked for me best (by which I mean the first or second half of "the chapter").

I don't know if my COVID brain fog, which was quite serious, accounted for my reaction after my first reading. Possibly it's just a complex or complicated novel. Maybe a first reading is likely to be challenging with the two different levels of stories within stories, as well as a matrix of character relationships.

I did find the wikipedia entry helpful. Knowing a little about this book, what Calvino intended for the structure, and the authors & stories he's paying homage to, enhanced my enjoyment and understanding a lot.

You might want to check out this review which describes the method Calvino used for the structure of the book, inspired by his association at the time with the Oulipo group.

How are you liking LAUM?
I have and want to read his biography, Georges Perec: A Life in Words, which is supposed to be excellent. And I think I'll read it next year with a few other Perec books and a reread of LAUM.