Victorians! discussion

Welcome to our discussion of North and South by Elizabeth Gaskell! North and South is Mrs Gaskell’s fourth novel, and while it does have a ‘romance’ as one of its storylines, the central theme is of difference—between North and South, between factory worker and employer, between ‘gentleman’ and manufacturer/tradesman.

I've organised this week's points into places, people, and events

Places
London: While North and South might centrally be a book about the North and South, our opening chapters are in a setting different from all of these—London where our ‘heroine’ Margaret Hale has been living with her aunt Shaw and cousin Edith, with whom she’s been brought up—and amidst the hustle and bustle of preparations for Edith’s wedding. Here Margaret is dreaming also of the life that (she thinks) lies ahead for her—back in her father’s small parsonage Helstone with its natural beauty—roses and honeysuckle, and general calm and quiet. Having been away from Helstone though, she seems not to know how things like inside the parsonage—between her parents.
We travel to London again after the Hales leave Helstone, on the way to Milton—taking in its hustle and bustle, where everyone is constantly in a hurry, and the Hales find themselves desolate and different.

Helstone: After the wedding, Margaret arrives at her home, and things are pretty much as she described—as far as the environment outside and the peace and quiet is concerned, but things between her parents are not the same or at least not as she (or perhaps we) imagined them—there is a rift and one that seems irreparable to an extent. Then the ‘bomb’ drops and we find the Hales are to move to a place the complete opposite of where they’ve been, the manufacturing town—Milton-Northern.

Heston: A brief sojourn here is planned for the Hales, in this slight spot of calm, and clean air close to Milton, for Margaret’s mother to recover her health and for Margaret and her father to find a place for them to live

Milton-Northern: Finally the Hales arrive at Milton (based on Manchester), another place where people are forever in a hurry. Their position—social and financial—is different, and so is the way people react to them as we see in their house hunting adventures (their efforts at having new wallpaper vis-à-vis Mr Thornton’s), and their attempts at finding help. People are different too—all employed in factories, and freer in their ways and with their comments—some welcome, but others not so much. Yet even amidst all this, Margaret manages to find some green, some fields where she can walk and find flowers. In her walking in the town, she seems to adapt to their pace too, moving faster than she would at Helstone.

Corfu: indirectly makes an appearance, as does Italy: Edith is with her husband in Corfu after her marriage and living life with his regiment, with music and other activities. Mrs Shaw is in Italy, relaxing as she does each year.

People
Margaret Hale: our heroine all of eighteen, proves to be a fairly strong character, in fact the only strong one in her family—having to snap out of her dreams of a peaceful life at Helstone and being thrown into a situation where both her father and mother are incapable of handling things on their own—she has to take charge, not only of the physical activities of packing or at least directing the packing but also providing the much needed mental strength and support to her father in his wavering resolve and mother in her feelings of being a ‘victim’ almost, and taking to her bed when strength is most needed. But Margaret is strong in her opinions as well, expressing her disdain of ‘shoppy’ people right at the start. Yet she manages to find friends or ‘human interest’ in Milton, in Nicholas Higgins and his daughter Bessy who is ill.

Mr Hale: Mr Hale is somewhat a person with contrasts—on the one hand he seems unwavering (at least initially) when he takes the decision to give up the cloth and move to, specifically Milton and on the other he is weak and cowardly, not only not wanting to face his wife and tell her of his decision, but putting all responsibility on an eighteen-year-old girl. And when one thinks that perhaps he is at least strong about his decision, he seems to waver from time to time, and has to be brought back to his resolve by Margaret. In one feature, being lost in his books and study he seems to be a little like Mr Bennett (Pride and Prejudice) who also found his marriage not quite like he expected it.

Mrs Hale: She is certainly in a sense unhappy in her marriage, and yet loves her husband and wants him to spend time with her—like in their ‘holiday’ at Heston. One wonders if the rift with her husband was to do only with the incident involving Frederick or has something more to it. After all, even if Mr Hale as a poor clergyman, he could well have advanced within his profession—a better living perhaps, even position (like the clergy in Trollope’s Barsetshire).

Dixon: Mrs Hale’s faithful maid, contemptuous of her husband, yet supporting the family, but perhaps Mrs Hale herself through thick and thin.

Mr Thornton: Mr Hale’s oldest 'pupil' in Milton—a millowner, about thirty, we see that he has authority in the town, and also that he is interested both in his studies, and in the Hales—going out of his way to help in the matter of the wallpaper. He is interested in Margaret of course, but only just so, at the moment.

What did we make of them? First impressions?

Events
There’s plenty happening in this segment in terms of events and circumstances
A wedding: Edith Shaw marries Captain Lennox (who we really don’t see much of) and there is plenty of activity, shopping, and plans.

A proposal: The first segment, and Margaret already has her first proposal—from Mr Henry Lennox, brother of Captain Lennox who we could tell early on, admired her. But she is indifferent, or so she thinks at the moment. But we know her to be clear about her opinions.

Doubts: Mr Hale has doubts about the church that he is serving (the Church of England), and this causes him to give up his poor but comfortable living and start afresh, in a place which is as different as can be and where he is unknown. But what these doubts were exactly, I wasn’t too clear about on this read either.

The move: Shifting house for the first time ever proves too much for Mrs Hale and it is Margaret who ends up taking charge, and to be the source of strength, so much so that she is perceived as indifferent by the housemaid and cook, though she’s simply hiding her feelings so that she can be there for others.

Househunting/the new home: Their new home at Milton is as different as can be from the pretty old parsonage at Helstone, though ‘three sitting rooms and three bedrooms’ sounds not as poor a space as it was at the time. Still, adjustments must be made, and Margaret finds that even finding household help in this new place is not so easy.

The mutiny: Frederick, Margaret’s brother has been involved in one, and is currently in hiding in Rio. We don’t have the details and neither does Margaret, but of course, it has a role to play in the story to come.

So what did we think of this first segment.

I think I'll make a start by sharing my thoughts about some of the characters. All in all, I find it admirable how Gaskell manages to create characters whom one might meet in real life. I am a great fan of Dickens's - he's one of my favourite writers even - but his heroines are often extremely boring. (Little Nell, for instance ...) Margaret, however, seems to promise action and interior development - at the moment, I am very surprised to find her so haughty with regard to tradespeople. There was one passage when she said she respected farmers, sailors, soldiers as people who have something to do with the earth - but shopkeepers, nay, they are not her cup of tea. It's strange she should have such a strong prejudice against them when England's wealth depended to a large degree on trade and business, and industrialization.

I think that maybe, her attitude towards mill-owners, shopkeepers and the North as such will play an important role in the events that are going to unfold.

Then there is Mr. Hale. He is the character I like least of all so far: What exactly is it that made him give up his office in the Anglican Church? I did not quite get it and it seems like a finicky detail to me for the sake of which he is willing to sacrifice his wife and his daughter's financial security in life. He uproots them from their original abode and makes them go to Milton (Manchester) for a mere whim of conscience. Now, conscience is an important matter but should not his conscience also tell him that what he is doing to his wife is rather unfair? That, in fact, he is acting quite egoistically? And to top it all, he even sends his daughter to break the terrible news to his wife, and he also leaves it to Margaret to work out the details for their moving to Milton and for finding a new home. What kind of person is this man?

First a shout out to Lady Clementina, this is a great introduction!

This book draws you in like few others...

I do share the frustration with Mr. Hale. He is the catalyst who sets the story in motion. He is a self-centered person with a passive-aggressive way about him. He upends the life of his family but doesn't have the courage to do the hard things. This statement in Chapter IV I found revealing:

"No: we must go to Milton. That is settled. I can always decide better by myself, and not influenced by those whom I love,' said he, as a half apology for having arranged so much before he had told any one of his family of his intentions. 'I cannot stand objections. They make me so undecided.'"

Now Mrs. Hale is of a good family, landed gentry probably - I don't recall we're told completely, and she took a bit of a step down socially by marrying Richard Hale. He does have the potential of rising within the ranks of the Church of England, so her status may still be redeemed. It is quite telling that Mr. Hale does finally get the chance of taking a more prestigious position and he refuses! And Mrs. Hale knows nothing about it. Lets stop here for a moment: Marriage is a complimentary and reciprocal endeavor. The two work together for a common goal. After all Mrs. Hale has sacrificed for this marriage he is not willing to give her the pleasure of seeing some of the fruits. It would mean he has to sacrifice for her and his family, and he is not willing to do it. Mrs. Hale knows it and is the cause for her dissatisfaction. Once the move to Milton is revealed to her there is not longer any doubt.

The fact that he hasn't taken his wife into his confidence about his searching questions on faith is also a telling sign how utterly self-absorbed he is. He is never challenged on his findings. Finding a new life when you know you've had a conversion of any kind is never easy, and if you truly love your wife and family you don't present them with a done deal, and then let them worry about the particulars. And, lets not overlook that he wouldn't have been able to pull it off if he hadn't had the connection to his old tutor, Mr. Bell. It is much easier to be a Dissenter when you have people helping you along the way.

On a final note, in the Christian understanding both a pastor and a father/husband is a Christ figure - for his parish and family. Christ teaches a selfless love, agape. This love means that you are the first servant, a protector and provider for those whom you are responsible for. This comes before looking after yourself. Mr. Hale is not really capable of this selfless love. Yes, he loves his family, but his love has limits.

Tristram wrote: "I think I'll make a start by sharing my thoughts about some of the characters. All in all, I find it admirable how Gaskell manages to create characters whom one might meet in real life. I am a grea..."

She is rather prejudiced towards anyone in trade-probably a reflection of the circumstances i which she's been brought up--the circles her aunt moved in perhaps--and her initial reactions and thoughts are impacted by this prejudice--along the way, of course, once she gets to know them, we shall have to see whether and how things change.

Kerstin wrote: "First a shout out to Lady Clementina, this is a great introduction!

This book draws you in like few others...

I do share the frustration with Mr. Hale. He is the catalyst who sets the story in mo..."

Thanks Kerstin!

In not taking his wife into confidence, I also saw him as rather cowardly-- and also rather impractical-- you've identified a place to go but not thought of where you'd live when you get there. And wanting to live Dixon behind also didn't seem to reflect too well on him.

But while I felt sorry for Mrs Hale, I felt she comes across as rather weak as well.

What a fantastic start to this wonderful book! One of the things I’ve loved about N&S is the thoughtful layering of so many story elements. It is a masterpiece a d Gaskell does not get nearly the credit she deserves. Great job, Lady C!

Renee wrote: "What a fantastic start to this wonderful book! One of the things I’ve loved about N&S is the thoughtful layering of so many story elements. It is a masterpiece a d Gaskell does not get nearly the c..."

Thank you :)

True- I'd never have heard of it if I hadn't seen the adaptation. That was my intro to Mrs G.

I have read N&S before and I have seen the movie adaptation. The book and the movie/series are different. You get so much deeper into the characters when reading the book.

I am not through this week’s reading yet, but have finished reading through Mr. Lennox’s proposal to Margaret. He was not a man she could marry. I had to reread the portion of his visit to Helstone to get an understanding of why she rejected him. I am still not sure why or I have a difficulty putting it into words. He seems to not understand her situation in Helstone. There may be a feeling of thinking London is superior to a little hamlet or village. Also, it may just be that his personality does not fit with Margaret.

Mr. Thornton does not make the greatest first impression either. It will be interesting to compare and contrast these two men in their relationships with Margaret.

I really enjoyed these first few chapters. Mrs Gaskell has avoided those lengthy descriptions of landscapes and buildings that many Victorian authors love, she takes us straight in to meet our characters, and then we get to know the village of Helstone and the town of Milton through Margaret's eyes. It's a very effective and engaging way to approach things.

I shared the views expressed above about Mr and Mrs Hale, Margaret seems to be taking care of them, doing all the organising and protecting them emotionally.

I'm intrigued to see more of Mr Thornton, he is obviously attracted to Margaret but finds her proud and haughty, Sparks are going to fly!

Pamela wrote: "I shared the views expressed above about Mr and Mrs Hale, Margaret seems to be taking care of them, doing all the organising and protecting them emotionally..."

Suppose Margaret had married Mr. Lennox. What would have happened to Mr. & Mrs. Hale then. Would they have had to take care of themselves or would they have gone under. Mr. Hale seems totally irresponsible as he does no proper planning. It is pretty clear the parents are suffering from depression as they are not functioning well.

Brit wrote: "Mr. Thornton does not make the greatest first impression either...."

Shades of Pride and Prejudice there.

Brit wrote: "Pamela wrote: "I shared the views expressed above about Mr and Mrs Hale, Margaret seems to be taking care of them, doing all the organising and protecting them emotionally..."

Suppose Margaret had..."

They would have been completely lost, perhaps Mr Hale may not have taken the decision he did either, having no one to foist the responsibility on--of communicating it, and actually making the thing happen. One can only guess of course

Pamela wrote: "I really enjoyed these first few chapters. Mrs Gaskell has avoided those lengthy descriptions of landscapes and buildings that many Victorian authors love, she takes us straight in to meet our char..."

Glad you're enjoying it.

Yes, one can already sense that she's piqued his interest, but her haughtiness, and of course her opinions of tradespeople shows there are going to be a few clashes ahead.

I had the impression that Margaret rejected Lennox because of his half ironic, half disdainful attitude towards the world around him: When in London, he was more of an observer than a participator in what happened at Aunt Shaw's house, and a slightly mocking observer at that. The mocking attitude also comes over when Margaret starts raving about Helstone - he may mean no ill by making these rewards, but they do go against the grain with Margaret. Probably, this ironic attitude is just a kind of shield employed by Lennox, who seems to dislike losing control of a situation. He is apparently very ill at ease when divulging his feelings to Margaret.

And what would a man of his stamp have said if he had engaged himself to a woman whose father turns out to be a renegade priest? Would he have stood by her?

As other readers, I am completely drawn in and fascinated by Mrs Gaskell’s first chapters and the opposition of South as an idyllic sort of paradise and North as an industrialised wasteland. The characters really do come to life. Mr Hale comes across as an intellectually minded person who lives mostly in his head and has not a lot of ability to deal with the practical or the emotional. That is why, then, he thought his doubts and reservations thoroughly through and resigned from the Church, but did not mention it to his wife. I have to say I do not really understand what his doubts are all about. He says 'No! not doubts as to religion; not the slightest injury to that.', so it appears it is not about the existence of God. And then he says ’…how I love the holy Church from which I am to be shut out!’ – so I suppose it is something to do with the Church of England?
Margaret Hale is proud and capable, however, she is not free of prejudice. I was somewhat surprised at her reaction to Henry Lennox’s marriage proposal. At first, she seemed strangely naive and unaware of the gentleman’s feelings, although she had been brought up in London and in society. She even seemed to consider it as a bit of an insult, which is also strange, because I thought that it was the main perspective for young women to find themselves a husband and become the mistress of their own household. Maybe it will become evident later what sort of a future Margaret imagines for herself.

I haven't finished the chapters yet, but so far have enjoyed rereading this novel. There was one lovely little piece of humour early in the novel, which I have not seen replicated, and wonder whether humour is to be a feature later on. This is where Margaret's bonnet, hanging on a branch, is mistaken for a bird's nest. Her reason for not wearing the bonnet is practical, but I thought the instance lovely and whimsical. Speaking to his eldest daughter about his worries and foisting responsibility for telling her mother, is an interesting aspect of Hale's character. Is it usual to use the oldest child as a conduit for a father's uncomfortable decisions? Would a son have been entrusted with this task? Is this giving Margaret a powerful role in the novel, suggesting that she can control matters if she wishes, or is it putting her into a typical feminine position? Somewhat 'mothering' the mother? The emphasis on the differences between North and South is a good device for looking at the role of manufacturing in the Victorian age (a topic of a fascinating television programme Great British Train Journeys that does that so well). Perhaps Margaret's misunderstanding of the nature of Lennox's proposal is that she does not see herself in the same way as she does her cousin whose wedding has been described in the early chapters. What a pain it sounded! And perhaps Margaret felt that way too.

Triin wrote: "... he thought his doubts and reservations thoroughly through and resigned from the Church, but did not mention it to his wife. I have to say I do not really understand what his doubts are all about. He says 'No! not doubts as to religion; not the slightest injury to that.', so it appears it is not about the existence of God. And then he says ’…how I love the holy Church from which I am to be shut out!’ – so I suppose it is something to do with the Church of England?"

I have also been wondering what these doubts are. I agree, it cannot be the existence of God as we find them praying together several times in the novel. Elizabeth Gaskell came from a family of Unitarians, married a Unitarian, so I suspect it might be something about the nature of God. It would make sense if Mr. Hale’s doubts stemmed from leanings towards Unitarianism, but the novel does not shed any light on what it is. At least I have not figured out what it is.

Lady Clementina wrote: "But while I felt sorry for Mrs Hale, I felt she comes across as rather weak as well."

Mrs. Hale strikes me as a person who doesn't take change very well. She was raised in a genteel way and in her married life she never returns to it. This is probably not how she had envisioned things to turn out. Her sister in London lives the genteel life, but not her, and it wears her down. Mr. Hale is aware of it, but his own emotional distance to his wife prevents him from easing her suffering. If they lived a truly loving and happy marriage she would be much stronger and she probably wouldn't focus on the social and economic short-comings so much.

Triin wrote: "I am completely drawn in and fascinated by Mrs Gaskell’s first chapters and the opposition of South as an idyllic sort of paradise and North as an industrialised wasteland."

Isn't it? One can almost smell the stench from the smokestacks in Milton. It feels rather oppressive.

Tristram wrote: "There was one passage when she said she respected farmers, sailors, soldiers as people who have something to do with the earth - but shopkeepers, nay, they are not her cup of tea. It's strange she should have such a strong prejudice against them when England's wealth depended to a large degree on trade and business, and industrialization."

Margaret is only 18, so I do give her a bit of a break :-) She was raised within the old world order and the industrialization breaks in and upends it. The old wealth based on landholdings, tenant farming and ruled by the nobility is usurped by commoners who become rich, some fabulously so, and challenge the place and very existence of the nobility. Even though we are never told the exact legacy of Mrs. Hale, the Beresfords, but it is clear they are part of the old nobility. So it is no wonder Margaret is raised in an environment where tradespeople are not held in high esteem.

Triin wrote: "That is why, then, he thought his doubts and reservations thoroughly through and resigned from the Church, but did not mention it to his wife. I have to say I do not really understand what his doubts are all about. He says 'No! not doubts as to religion; not the slightest injury to that.', so it appears it is not about the existence of God. And then he says ’…how I love the holy Church from which I am to be shut out!’ – so I suppose it is something to do with the Church of England?"

It is my hunch Elizabeth Gaskell left the exact reason for Mr. Hale's dissent obscure on purpose. Religion in 19th century England was a hot topic and there were by this time so many Protestant denominations as well as a resurgence of Catholicism. She probably would have ignited too much controversy. Mr. Hale is one of many dissenters at the time, and she gives enough detail to make him a believable catalyst for the story.

You are right, it has something to do with the Church of England.

"It is not a month since the bishop offered me another living; if I had accepted it, I should have had to make a fresh declaration of conformity to the Liturgy at my institution. Margaret, I tried to do it; I tried to content myself with simply refusing the additional preferment, and stopping quietly here,—strangling my conscience now, as I had strained it before. God forgive me!'"

There is an oath of assent clergy of the Church of England have to give in order to work and is also required when taking on a new position. Mr. Hale can't see himself doing this any longer. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find the version of the 1850s from which we could glean some information. The only one I did find is contemporary. In addition, the Church of England has the 39 Articles of Faith, and we're not told if he finds any objection with them.

Kerstin wrote: "Lady Clementina wrote: "But while I felt sorry for Mrs Hale, I felt she comes across as rather weak as well."

Mrs. Hale strikes me as a person who doesn't take change very well. She was raised in ..."

True-life for her hasn't turned out as she thought it would and of course, change seems something she can't adapt too--especially the kind of change that is opposite to what she wanted (a better living, some position)--but still one can't help thinking (perhaps from current standards) that one would rather she tackled the situation strongly--head on. On the other hand, ill health is hinted at, which may also be a reason why.

Kerstin wrote: She probably would have ignited too much controversy..."

I think so too, plus the fact that her husband was a clergyman may be would have made the situation worse, perhaps.

Renee wrote: "What a fantastic start to this wonderful book! One of the things I’ve loved about N&S is the thoughtful layering of so many story elements. It is a masterpiece a d Gaskell does not get nearly the c..."

I agree entirely with Renee.

It is interesting to me that some of the prejudices explored in North and South are still prevalent today in the UK. For example, manufacturing qualifications including apprenticeships are still looked upon unfavourably compared with obtaining a university degree. In Germany for instance they have always had equal status. Another fact is that life expectancy in the North of England is a number of years less than in the South. Job prospects of those from the North are not as favourable as those from the South. Most of the manufacturing described by Elizabeth Gaskell in North and South has completely disappeared and partially replaced by a mix of light industries but also a higher level of unemployment than in the South.

Margaret’s prejudices against tradespeople seem to be a reflection of the narrow world she had lived in during her childhood and early adulthood. Her parents are benevolent to the poor in Helstone but her mother especially seems to want to cultivate a healthy social distance between her family and the workers. However she was willing to make an exception with the carriage maker’s son as a possible husband for Margaret. Margaret’s time in London would only have strengthened her prejudices, with her social life completely devoted to dinners, balls etc, surrounded by people from the middle and upper classes. However, she soon realised the shallowness of that sort of life and found it tedious. Maybe it was because Henry Lennox was participating in that social circle that she never developed anything more than a feeling of friendship for him.

Mr. Hale, for all his faults, was the only one in the family who seemed to treat everyone alike whatever their background. His decision to leave Helstone was probably linked to this as he couldn’t continue to work for a Church he thought was steeped in hypocrisy.

Trev wrote:It is interesting to me that some of the prejudices explored in North and South are still prevalent today in the UK. ..."
That was interesting to learn--one would perhaps expect contrasts to continue, perhaps in the way of life, an life itself but I didn't think in terms of the prejudices still continuing as well.

At first many thanks to Lady Clementina for the introductions and everyone else for expressing their opinions!

As it´s my third read, I looked out for other parts of the story I hadn´t seen before, and discovered the humour that at least in the first three chapters appears.

Aunt Shaw and her superficial talk as well as Margaret having to be draped with all the Indian shawls are such examples. Others I found are Dixon´s description in ch.2 of former Miss Beresford´s marriage as "her affliction and downfall", in which she had to be loyal to her, and in ch.3 the story that Mrs. Hale could only offer cold meat to Mr. Lennox when he arrived in Helstone and the subsequent sentence that Mr. Lennox "accepted the invitation with a glad readiness that made Mrs. Hale wish she could add something to the cold beef".

Of course the further story is mostly serious, but as you mentioned it´s got many layers, so will - beneath the tragical parts - also look out for more humourous ones.

My old Penguin Classics edition has got notes to each chapter, which are sometimes helpful, sometimes less so, but regarding the doubts of Mr. Hale it says that they are not definitely explained, but may have to do with Gaskell being Unitarian, so not believing in the trinity of God or in Jesus being God.
It also says that Dickens advised her to omit the topic of religion.

I always had the impression that Mr. Hale in ch.4 is a kind of coward to leave the explanation of his leaving the parish and going to the North to his 18 year old daughter Margaret who just has to struggle with Mr. Lennox´ sudden offer. It tells much about the "love" marriage the Hales had entered, at least from a modern point.

Like Michaela, I found a lot of humour in the first few chapters of North and South, especially whenever the narrator speaks of Aunt Shaw. Just consider this passage:

"'Married for love, what can dearest Maria have to wish for in this world?' Mrs. Hale, if she spoke truth, might have answered with a ready-made list, 'a silver-grey glacé silk, a white chip bonnet, oh! dozens of things for the wedding, and hundreds of things for the house.'"

Passages like this not only cleverly draw the picture of Aunt Shaw as a woman who enjoys seeing herself a victim of circumstance and a paragon of forbearance when in reality she has proved a good perception of what side her bread is buttered on and acted accordingly. Apart from that, this passage establishes a contrast between love marriages and such of convenience as well as between the two sisters: One professes herself to be miserable because she has never known true love (but access to the gratification of all her creature comforts), and the other is supposed to have married for love although at the same time she has stepped down in life and in wealth. A few chapters later we are even to learn that the husband she loves thinks nothing about sacrificing her happiness to what he perceives as the whisperings of his conscience.

Maybe, there is also another difference in the two father figures Mr. Hale and Mr. Higgins. We have not seen much of Mr. Higgins yet, but he seems to be a father who cares for his daughter instead of expecting his daughter to care about him and his whims. - Saying that, however, we'll have to see whether my first impression is borne out by the events to come.

Trev wrote: "For example, manufacturing qualifications including apprenticeships are still looked upon unfavourably compared with obtaining a university degree. In Germany for instance they have always had equal status."

Living in Germany, I can tell you that as far as I am concerned, I am even willing to regard an apprenticeship and then being a master craftsman as better than university degrees in literature, history and the like. I say that although I've got degrees in History and English - but it has become so difficult to find reliable and good electricians, plumbers, glaziers and other craftsmen in Germany that I wish there were more of them. Many more!

Tristram wrote: "I had the that Margaret rejected Lennox because of his half ironic, half disdainful attitude towards the world around him: When in London, he was more of an observer than a participator ..."
I just started reading it now, and I feel that Margaret intuitively understands that life with Lennox will be very similar to what she is used to in London. I think she wants more variety or adventure to her life even if she cannot fully verbalize it.

Tristram wrote: "Maybe, there is also another difference in the two father figures Mr. Hale and Mr. Higgins. We have not seen much of Mr. Higgins yet, but he seems to be a father who cares for his daughter instead ..."

Good point! N&S is a book of contrasts and a look at the changing society of Gaskell’s time. She uses the contrasts between the south and the north to illustrate this, especially through her descriptions of people. Another interesting contrast is found between Mr. Lennox and Mr. Thornton.

Michaela wrote: "I always had the impression that Mr. Hale in ch.4 is a kind of coward to leave the explanation of his leaving the parish and going to the North to his 18 year old daughter Margaret who just has to ..."

He certainly is--and like you i've always thought so too.

Kerstin wrote: "Triin wrote: "That is why, then, he thought his doubts and reservations thoroughly through and resigned from the Church, but did not mention it to his wife. I have to say I do not really understand..."

I agree that his leaving the Church had something to do with the oath. He, in good conscience, could not sincerely take the oath again and felt that taking it under false pretenses would put his soul in peril. While others may see his actions thus far as cowardice, I feel that he did a very brave and honest thing by stepping down from a comfortable position when he felt that he could no longer agree with the Church. Of course, he may have not handled all of his family's affairs in the right way, but I see him as being far from a coward.

When reading about the Unitarian denomination, I found that the main difference in view was that people of this faith did not believe in the Trinity. I would be very interested to know what Mr. Hale's specific qualm was with the Church of England as well.

I also find it interesting that, although Margaret seems practical and mostly accepting of the situation, she does not seem to agree with her father's religious views and is truly concerned about his spiritual fate. She does not inquire much about his religious views because she is afraid to know exactly what he will say about his change of heart.

Thank you to Lady Clementina for your introduction, a really great guide, really enhanced my enjoyment of the first part of the novel

I share the frustration about Mr Hale's reluctance to take his oath of allegiance again. EG makes it clear this is on a point of doctrine, as Mr Hale says:

“No! not doubts as to religion; not the slightest injury to that.”

But I am left wondering why were his doubts not made more specific? I wonder if EG had originally intended to be clear about his dissent and perhaps this was edited out of the text as it may have been too contentious? I wonder if Dickens advised her on this point?

If Hale’s doubts were more specific I might have a greater sympathy with him and if his moral stance was clearer it might hold out more promise for vindication later in the novel but it’s hard to like Mr Hale at this point as his behaviour seems unpredictable. I don't necessarily think he is cowardly or not committed to his marriage as in Victorian times love of God and obedience to faith would be paramount to those of good moral character it's just that his behaviour isn't fully explained at this point.

As it stands, this important change in the lives of all the central characters seems to result from capriciousness and I quite liked the boldness and slight insanity in this turn of events. EG seems rather ahead of her time in creating complex characters (not quite as adroit as George Elliot but near enough) it often happens that children are more adult than adults in a marriage breakdown, and at this point in the novel there is little connection between husband and wife, although this may the natural ebb and flow of emotions and they may grow closer again.

Michaela wrote: "I always had the impression that Mr. Hale in ch.4 is a kind of coward to leave the explanation of his leaving the parish and going to the North to his 18 year old daughter Margaret who just has to ..."

thank you to Michaela for answering this point about Dickens advice to EG, you can feel that in the text, such a shame, I do the novel would have even greater power if these doubts had been clearly expressed and worked through in the plot, maybe we will work them out later on

Jennifer wrote: "..While others may see his actions thus far as cowardice, I feel that he did a very brave and honest thing by stepping down from a comfortable position when he felt that he could no longer agree with the Church. Of course, he may have not handled all of his family's affairs in the right way, but I see him as being far from a coward."

I agree with you Jennifer! It is easy to dismiss someone like Mr Hale's actions as one of cowardice and weakness; but can you imagine being riddled with doubt and anger having to comply to something you truly feel is against your principles?

I suspect Mr Hale did not have the luxury of having open conversations re said doubts with his family or maybe even his fellow peers. I think Mrs Hale might not have understood his "feelings" and would have made it all about herself anyway. I don't think their marriage was what either expected it to be. And at the end of the day, the decision lies solely with oneself anyway.

I do not think Mr. Hale's resignation from the church as such cowardly - but the way he pulls it through, i.e. never talking with his wife before and leaving it to his daughter to break this news to Mrs. Hale and to make her realize all that comes with his resignation. He creates a fait accompli and leaves it to his daughter to confront his wife about it.

Mr. Hale's resignation as such is hard to judge on since we do not know any particulars, and I think Dickens advised Gaskell not to go into detail (or go out of it by deleting whatever passages she had already written) in order to keep people from focusing on theological questions and maybe thus forgetting the characters as such. Maybe, the topic was also too controversial; I also read somewhere that Dickens advised Wilkie Collins not to depict an Anglican clergyman in a negative light in The Moonstone.

Although, even without knowing too much about the particulars of the oath Mr. Hale is no longer ready to take, I can say that I find his course of action very egoistic. One may say that he is not willing to imperil his soul in professing something he no longer believes in, but then he is willing to sacrifice his wife's happiness and to disappoint the woman who has stepped down in life in order to marry him. One might argue whether one can really save one's own soul at the cost of other people's well-being, and I think that Mr. Hale's focusing on his own spiritual salvation rather than on the security of his family shows that he is an egoist, a refined and pious one, but still an egoist. But that's just my stance on him, and I must confess it will be very hard for him to live down my bad opinion on him :-)

I note as well that for Mr Hale, Christianity is a matter of doctrine. He cannot accept a specific form of theology, so his conscience tells him he must surrender his living. Margaret's Christianity is more practical and rooted in service - she is concerned about leaving the villagers who she helps and is heartbroken at the thought of a child waiting for a visit that will not come.

Jennifer wrote: "I feel that he did a very brave and honest thing by stepping down from a comfortable position when he felt that he could no longer agree with the Church. Of course, he may have not handled all of his family's affairs in the right way, but I see him as being far from a coward."

There is nothing wrong with following one's conscience per se, and at times it may be very brave.

Here is why I have come down so hard on Mr. Hale: I am not so sure he has completed his discernment because he shows so little humility. Does he really question whether or not he is wrong? Being shut in his study with his books is only a half-answer. We're not told the titles he is reading. He purposefully avoids drawing his family into the discussion. I'll post the quote again, because I think it is so revealing:

"I can always decide better by myself, and not influenced by those whom I love,' said he, as a half apology for having arranged so much before he had told any one of his family of his intentions. 'I cannot stand objections. They make me so undecided.'"

He is not interested in working through the issues in a healthy back-and-forth with other persons, having to rework his thinking and conclusions, making sure he hasn't made a mistake somewhere. He is by no means the first one to have a crisis of faith. It makes him very human. The usual course of action is to voice it to someone you trust. Better yet, someone who is qualified on a theological level to enter into a conversation with him. He doesn't show this kind of humility. When the ultimate consequences of his conversion are life-changing for everyone in his family and his parish, then I would expect better.

Tristram wrote: "I do not think Mr. Hale's resignation from the church as such cowardly - but the way he pulls it through, i.e. never talking with his wife before and leaving it to his daughter to break this news to Mrs. Hale ... but then he is willing to sacrifice his wife's happiness and to disappoint the woman who has stepped down in life in order to marry him. One might argue whether one can really save one's own soul at the cost of other people's well-being, and I think that Mr. Hale's focusing on his own spiritual salvation rather than on the security of his family shows that he is an egoist, a refined and pious one, but still an egoist."

Could his defect as a husband be a consequence of the times they lived in? I doubt most Victorian men made major life-altering decisions by first discussing with their wives and daughters.

And could the very nature of their marriage have made for a rather pointless endeavour even if he did? I may be wrong but I don't believe Mr Hale was wrong in not taking into account his Victorian wife's happiness here. Given his disposition, I think Mr Hale behaved as many a Victorian husband of the time would.

I didn´t think Mr. Hale cowardly in regard to his religious believes or rather the doctrines of his church, but in regard to his family. It may not have been usual for a Victorian man to discuss his affairs with his family, but using his young daughter to bring the news to his wife is a bit odd imo.

Pamela wrote: "I note as well that for Mr Hale, Christianity is a matter of doctrine. He cannot accept a specific form of theology, so his conscience tells him he must surrender his living. Margaret's Christianit..."

With Mr. Hale, very much so. There is something missing on a more fundamental level. To Christians their relationship to Jesus Christ is the root of all action and what one considers true. At least in the ideal. Margaret comes much closer to this. She readily sacrifices her own needs and wants to serve those she loves. She intuitively understands the human cost to abstract decisions.

Lois wrote: "Could his defect as a husband be a consequence of the times they lived in? I doubt most Victorian men made major life-altering decisions by first discussing with their wives and daughters."

Good question!
I think no matter the age, when a husband truly loves his wife and family he will value their input and will never put them before a done deal of the likes we see here. When you do what Mr. Hale did you cause needless hurt and suffering, and a loving man will do his best not to inflict such. Though I do think the Victorian age made it more permissible for men to act first as Mr. Hale did, and let the family know later no matter the fall out.

Michaela wrote: "using his young daughter to bring the news to his wife is a bit odd imo."

Very much so! I find it very skillful of Elizabeth Gaskell. Here Mr. Hale delivers this bomshell, and while we're trying to take it in along with Margaret he forces her to be the messenger. It is very hard to come away from this with a positive impression of Mr. Hale.

I do wonder too how Mr Hale would have handled the situation had Margaret not been in Helstone during his crisis.

But perhaps having Margaret there just made it easier for him to defer to her in all household matters knowing very well that she would be much more capable than his wife in handling the affairs. I think that was because Mrs Hale was weak not only in body and mind but also in spirit. I think that may have been why it would have difficult just to get her to at least acknowledge his doubts and to see the precariousness of his position. I get the feeling that Mr and Mrs Hale were never on the same page in their marriage.

Was it right to depend on your 18 y/o daughter to act as your conduit? No. But I think he satisfied himself knowing that she at least had more sense and lesser objections than his wife perhaps would have had.

Which is why, Kerstin, when Mr Hale said what he said re not being influenced by his loved ones in his decision, I took it to mean that he didn't want to be coerced into conceding (which would have likely been the case) especially when he was wavering himself. It was a huge decision and I think everyone around him would have said something along the lines of "oh, suck it up Hale; get it together now, will you" and he would have half-heartedly accepted their councel and denied his doubts with bitter remorse.

He needed to be strong to himself first. And if that meant deferring to his 18 y/o daughter, then so be it. Because if he faltered at any time then he would be the one riddled in guilt and regret till he died. Mr Hale (or anyone for that matter) I think would have crumbled under all that pressure. And all that estrogen coming at him lol! ;)