Science and Inquiry discussion

For June 2020, we will be reading Origins: How Earth's History Shaped Human History. Please use this thread to post questions, comments, and reviews, at any time.

Yay. As audiobook listener, based in the U.K. it is great to have a title that I can easily get hold of. I look forward to the listen. Thank you very much for all the effort you put in each month in selecting nominated books.

I finished this a couple days ago. I enjoyed this book, but I thought it had some minor flaws. Here is my review.

I have the book, will start soon.

Currently reading it, so far so good

In Chapter 1, there were some things that I had never really thought about before. One was how the lakes in the Rift Valley saw major changes in their water volume: "many of the lakes in the Rift Valley are exceedingly sensitive to the balance between precipitation and evaporation, and even a slight shift in climate causes their water levels to respond very considerably and rapidly–far more so than other lakes around the world and even elsewhere in Africa. As small changes in the regional climate cause very large changes in the levels of these vital bodies of water." And he then relates how this may have affected evolving intelligence of hominens.

Dartnell, Lewis. Origins (p. 21). Basic Books. Kindle Edition.

Another very important point that Dartnell made was that "If you look at a map of the tectonic plate boundaries grinding against each other and superimpose the locations of the world’s major ancient civilisations, an astonishingly close relationship reveals itself: most are located very close to plate margins." And unfortunately, these locations are very prone to earthquakes.

Dartnell, Lewis. Origins (p. 25). Basic Books. Kindle Edition.

Betsy wrote: "I finished this a couple days ago. I enjoyed this book, but I thought it had some minor flaws. Here is my review."

Betsy, I really look forward to reading the chapter on medieval trade mentioned in your review.

Chapter 2 provides a clear and useful summary of recent age ages ... and then it gets into a good summary of the modern human exodus out of Africa. My summary that summary

Our exodus out of Africa was a single event of a few thousand original migrants. We immediate began to encounter other hominins that had left Africa much earlier. There was some interbreeding with Neanderthals. That’s makes up about 2 percent of the non African humans. Another species, the Denisovans contributed between 4 and 6 percent of the DNA of modern people in Melanesia and Oceania and some to Native Americans. Humans made it into the Americas sometime after 20,000 years ago. About 11,000 years ago with a warming planet, the seas rose and the Bering land bridge disappeared.

I think that there has been some more recent research that actually shows some movement back into Africa from Europe after the mixing with Neanderthals so that there is evidence of Neanderthal genes in Subsaharan populations. I strongly recommend David Reich's 2018 book, Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past for very recent detailed study of the DNA evidence of how the Earth was peopled.

I started this today. Interesting & a good refresher, but he's pretty repetitious in places.

Jim wrote: "I started this today. Interesting & a good refresher, but he's pretty repetitious in places."

He is indeed repetitious. That bothers me more in books where the author doesn't have important things to say.

Larry wrote: "He is indeed repetitious. That bothers me more in books where the author doesn't have impo..."

Perhaps that's why it is bugging me so much. I've read several other books that cover these same points, some specific to just one of the subjects he covers, so it's already somewhat repetitive for me. If I hadn't, his nailing points down might not be quite as bad.

Jim wrote: "Larry wrote: "He is indeed repetitious. That bothers me more in books where the author doesn't have impo..."

Perhaps that's why it is bugging me so much. I've read several other books that cover these same points, some specific to just one of the subjects he covers, so it's already somewhat repetitive for me. .."

It's a different kind of repetition--one across books instead of within a particular book--but one thing that has really bugged me for years is the apparent need for authors to rehash the same basic information in their field before they get into the main theme of a book. I am so tired of reading about Newton in popular books on physics or Mendel in popular books on genetics. I understand why really good authors, e.g. Siddartha Mukherjee's The Gene: An Intimate History, do this, but unless these chapters are strictly chronological it makes it difficult to skip the introductory materials. And I do realize that it's not introductory to everyone.

Ch.3 - The book starts nearer to history, with a section on the Natufians in the Middle East who were there even before agriculture first began TO develop. And then it jumps ahead to when agriculture and animal husbandry first began to develop as it explains when crops and animals were first domesticated. It explains how agriculture is a trap, because it allows for population growth and then locks in certain aspects of society, which really can't be removed with a population crash and also leads to social stratification.

But then the chapter keeps going backward to much earlier eras.
I learned a lot about the evolution of plants and animals in this chapter. I was actually shocked to learn that trees evolved first and then grasses, and that grass first developed about 55 million years ago and spread widely between 20 and 10 million years ago. That is extremely recent in geological times.

Larry wrote: "I was actually shocked to learn that trees evolved first and then grasses, and that grass first developed about 55 million years ago and spread widely between 20 and 10 million years ago. That is extremely recent in geological times."

I was also surprised when I found this out some years ago when I got my pesticide license. It was part of why/how glyophosate worked on grass, but 2,4-d works on broad-leaved & woody plants. I thought grass was more 'primitive'. The more I read about evolution, the more I realize just how many irrational ideas were planted by my early education. Actually, that holds for most things.

Jim wrote: "I was also surprised when I found this out some years ago when I got my pesticide license. It was part of why/how glyophosate worked on grass, but 2,4-d works on broad-leaved & woody plants. I thought grass was more 'primitive'. The more I read about evolution, the more I realize just how many irrational ideas were planted by my early education. Actually, that holds for most things. ..."

Jim, in one of my last jobs before I retired I helped direct funds toward the EPA for developing and maintaining a Maximum Residue Limit database for all pesticides so that U.S. exporters would know what was acceptable by different importing countries. One thing I learned during that time was how little I understood about pesticides.

I think that that database has been pulled back into USDA/FAS ... I worry a lot about the gutting of EPA, so that even commercial activities that would have been supported in bipartisan way seem threatened. Here's the FAS link anyway: https://www.fas.usda.gov/maximum-resi... (The link actually takes you to a company that maintains the database. It's a company that I trust very much.)

Ch.4 - I enjoyed this chapter greatly. All about water ... especially the seas and oceans and how they have influenced human development in historical times.

From the thirteenth century, the Dutch have been “using windmills for drainage … to create new farmland from the sea and marshes. … reclaiming portions of the Ice Age Doggerland” that was resubmerged. This could only be accomplished by the community pooling resources. One step toward Holland becoming “a land of capitalists.” The Dutch also developed the concept of a futures market. The first national central bank and the first formal stock market were founded in Amsterdam early in the 17th century. These “financial innovations helped build the modern world.”

Others have noted that because rice in East Asia usually requires community efforts for paddies and/or terracing that that has led to social development that is very different than for communities/societies/economies that developed around grasses like wheat/barley/oats ... for these other grains, more individualistic economies have developed. I can accept that to a degree but the Dutch certainly displayed a lot of individualism also.

In Ch. 4, I also learned a lot about the Mediterranean: The northern coast is “peppered with islands,” which faciliated the development of civilizations like the Greek city state with trade throughout the Mediterranean. The southern shore is very different with few islands and this has hampered the development of civilization along the North African coast. The exceptions for cities with good harbors are Carthage and Alexandria. ... The Mediterranean will eventually disappear as the African plate pushes northward.

I just got finished with some geology, how rocks are formed, why NYC & London are built as they are. Incredible!

Oh yes! I really liket that part as well.. And i was thinking about how is Elon going to make these underground motorways in some places? Or is it an outdated question?

Larry wrote: "One thing I learned during that time was how little I understood about pesticides...."

I don't know much either, but I don't use many or often & I do a fair amount of research before I do. A bit of Sevin Dust around the asparagus when the beetles come for it & stuff like that. I mostly use herbicides to spot-spray the horse fields & fence lines to keep specific weeds down. I've used glyphosate & 2,4-d for years, no license required, but an invasive "Star of Bethlehem" (Ornithogalum umbellatum L.) took over in some areas. It's poisonous to the livestock, but since it's one of the first things up in the spring, they'll eat it, especially when it is mixed in with early grass. It's devilishly difficult to kill. The common herbicides just kill off the top green briefly.

I found out that Grammoxone, which contains paraquat, has the highest kill rate, about 90% if sprayed during a few weeks in the spring. I had to get the pesticide license to buy it which took long enough that it was the next year before I could apply it. Then I had to keep the animals off the spots for 40 days & reseed grass. A total PITA & I can't get spray some areas such as around the pond or it will kill the trees & everything in the pond.

I tried digging it up, being really careful to dig well outside the bulbs & then tossed the entire thing in a special container or the trash. I filled in the holes & planted a bunch of native plants back &/or spread straw around to minimize any run-off. The next year, the entire area I'd dug up was covered in SoB. I'd done a dandy job of spreading it. Sigh.

Good stories, Jim. We live in a chemical world, and you are so smart to do that research on the pesticides you use.

Larry wrote: "Good stories, Jim. We live in a chemical world, and you are so smart to do that research on the pesticides you use."

I appreciate it, but I'm terribly ignorant. I'm not a chemist & struggle with the thoughts of unintended consequences especially after reading I Contain Multitudes: The Microbes Within Us and a Grander View of Life & Gulp: Adventures on the Alimentary Canal. I wonder if anyone knows just how they really work on us. For instance, my wife has chronic gut problems that could well be the result of bacterial loss or imbalance. I doubt it's due to pesticide/herbicide intake, but antibiotics are a possibility.

Fungicides are terribly documented & we have a lot of fungus around here in KY. A rust started killing off my hollyhocks & the more I looked into saving them, the less I thought anyone knew about their effects on pollinators. I finally just planted a different variety & let the old ones die off. Really sucked since I had half a dozen years invested in some gorgeous displays, too.

Jim, I am so sorry for your wife’s ailments.

That book I CONTAIN MULTITUDES is by Ed Yong, who I think is the best science journalist writing today.

That is an excellent book.

I'm on chapter 8 now. It really is picking up for me in the past couple of chapters where I'm not as familiar with the content.

Ch. 5 -- Just a lot about a few basic minerals here ... especially limestone, chalk, marble ... and granite ... and a little bit about basalt.

The pyramids … made out of limestone, which is a biological stone, fossilized foraminifera, the remains of a single felled organism. This is oolitic limestone. ... Granite is the most common rock of the continents, “the sweat of plate tectonics.” It is less dense than basalt. It is hard and durable, the core of ancient mountain ranges. Mt. Rushmore is granite formed 1.6 billion years ago.

Ch. 6 - we move into a discussion of the metals ... starting with copper, the first metal used for tools but ever so soft ... mix in a little tin and you get bronze, good for ornaments and tools and even better for edged weapons.

I am fascinated by how the original trade patterns began for the two metals needed to make bronze. I don't know where the first bronze was created [elsewhere I have read it started in Greece and China around 3000BCE] but a lot of it was created in Mesopotamia ... which actually doesn’t have its own sources of tin, so it came long distance from near the modern-day German-Czech border, Cornwall, and Brittany. And a lot of copper came from Cyprus, where some ore is actually 20 percent copper. From the 2nd millennium BCE, Cyprus became the supplier of copper to the world.

The Minoans were the first major traders of this copper, beginning in about 2700BCE. They were master bronze-workers and mariners. The plunging plate that produced the copper also produced the volcano at Santorini in the Aegean Sea. Sometime between 1600 and 1500 BCE, it erupted and covered Crete totally with ash. Soon afterwards, Minoan civilization went into decline. As Minoan civilization declined, Mycenaean civilization rose.

These explanations are great but they leave me with so many questions ... and especially that first one about how the trade routes for copper and tin were first established.

Definitely worth reading & interesting. I finished it & gave it a 4 star review here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Could anyone suggest some books on the origins and evolution of different technologies?

Ayushmaan wrote: "Could anyone suggest some books on the origins and evolution of different technologies?"

Sheep: The Remarkable Story Of The Humble Animal That Built The Modern World got a 4 star review from me here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

The Man Who Made Things Out of Trees: The Ash in Human Culture and History was another 4 star book I reviewed here:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...

Not exactly what you asked, but I'm a bit of a nerd with woodworking & trees. It's a big subject since they've been critical for our entire history. I've reviewed quite a few books & they're on my shelf here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/list...

The Demon Under the Microscope: From Battlefield Hospitals to Nazi Labs, One Doctor's Heroic Search for the World's First Miracle Drug traces the tech of making antibiotics through the discovery of sulfa. I gave it 5 stars here:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Ayushmaan wrote: "Could anyone suggest some books on the origins and evolution of different technologies?"

Maybe Stuff Matters: Exploring the Marvelous Materials That Shape Our Man-Made World. I haven't read it, but it might be what you're looking for.

Ayushmaan wrote: "Could anyone suggest some books on the origins and evolution of different technologies?"

If you want to consider technology in the broadest context, consider these three books: Basalla's The Evolution of Technology; Headrick's Technology: A World HistoryTechnology in World Civilization: A Thousand-Year History; and Science and Technology in World History: An Introduction by McClellan and Dorn. All are available at reasonable prices as used books from Amazon.

Pacey's Technology in World Civilization: A Thousand-Year History is a work that I know nothing about. But the title looks interesting.

The suggestions by Jim and Betsy are really good for studies of specific technologies and how they came to be adopted and employed.

My own dissertation--many decades ago--was on the adoption and diffusion of the combined harvester and how this technology, even though it was invented in the 1880s, did not gain wide acceptance for harvesting small grains until the 1930s.

One specific example of the evolution of technology is found in Ch. 6 ... We use so many different metals today,over 60 different metals in a smart phone alone. And non-metals also. Of the 83 stable elements, around 70 are used in a smart phone.

Microchips used around 20 metals in the 1990s and now use around 60. That is rapid evolution of this technology indeed.

Thank you so much for your valuable suggestions.

Jumping back to my own earlier comment about how water control shapes human societies ... Larry wrote: "Others have noted that because rice in East Asia usually requires community efforts for paddies and/or terracing that that has led to social development that is very different than for communities/societies/economies that developed around grasses like wheat/barley/oats ... for these other grains, more individualistic economies have developed. I can accept that to a degree but the Dutch certainly displayed a lot of individualism also..."

I just ran across this article yesterday: "Growing collectivism: irrigation, group conformity and technological divergence" : "This paper examines whether collaboration within groups in pre-industrial agriculture favored the emergence of collectivist rather than individualist cultures. I document that societies whose ancestors jointly practiced irrigation agriculture historically have stronger collectivist norms today. This finding holds across countries, sub-national districts within countries, and migrants, and is robust to instrumenting the historical adoption of irrigation by its geographic suitability. In addition, I find evidence for a culturally-embodied effect of irrigation agriculture on economic behavior."

SOURCE: https://link.springer.com/article/10....

Ch. 7 On forests, grasslands, and deserts ... and camels and horses.

I enjoyed this chapter a lot. It explained how the different kinds of terrain and geography led to empires, notably the Roman and Chinese empires ... and how barbarians conquered those empires. I enjoyed learning about the importance of the camel in desert travel and in the establishment of the Silk Road ... and of the horse in allowing the grasslands (steppes/prairies/pampas/veldt) to be mastered.

For me, one of the valuable things about the chapter was just the simple review of history with some rough dates ... e.g. the change in China from the Qin Dynasty to the Yuan Dynasty to the Ming Dynasty and some simple reasons why that happened. ... And how gunpowder allowed agrarian based states to eventually overcome the barbarians.

Ch.8 -a wonderful chapter on the early mariners--especially those of the Iberian peninsula--who figured out prevailing wind and ocean current patterns and eventually used them to establish trade patterns all over the world.

The Iberian sailors mastered the winds and currents off of Africa, but eventually after sailing far enough South, there was a new challenge … the loss of sight of Polaris, which affected navigation. Eventually they noticed the Southern Cross, which helped them guide their ships.

What made the Indian Ocean different was the importance of the monsoon in establishing prevailing winds. The trick to sailing in the Indian Ocean is to time the change in the monsoon winds.

Ch.9 - One the movement toward "modern'" modes of power ...

Renewable power came in the scene with water wheels about 2,500 years ago and then windmills in Persia in the ninth century AD. Finally coal began to be used in Europe in the 18th century. Coal is essentially a combustible sedimentary rock. Coal built the modern world.

Good simple explanation of where coal, oil, and natural gas come from ... with the different geological processes involved in creating each one.

One quick summary of the book is that it is another book in the genre of Big History. I've read a few books in this genre, and this one perhaps stands out because it is about Big, Big History. And it does a very good job of relating science, especially plate tectonics to human history. Is it great book? Maybe not, but it is a very good book and one that I totally recommend to people who want to understand how natural processes and the natural world influenced human history.

Larry,
I agree with you - it’s a great book and one I would definitely recommend to my friends & family. I love books that explain the evolution of ideas or that show connections between disparate things.
Thanks for your great summaries of each chapter.

Betsy, in your review you note this: "My primary objection to the book is that I think he tried to cover too much in too little space. For instance his chapter on medieval trade is mostly about wind and ocean currents and while he does make clear the relationship to geological processes, that seemed like almost an afterthought."

That's really true, and also he doesn't go into the developments in such human matters as double-entry bookkeeping or joint stock companies that helped expand trade. But minor criticisms, indeed.

Martin, thanks so much for your complimentary words.

Larry, I'll second the thanks on the summaries. Excellent.

Larry wrote: "Ch.8 -a wonderful chapter on the early mariners--especially those of the Iberian peninsula--who figured out prevailing wind and ocean current patterns and eventually used them to establish trade pa..."

I thought this was fascinating! I had some vague notion of gulf streams and trade winds, but had no idea about the seasonal variations, or the complexity. That first guy to sail west into the Atlantic from Africa to try to wind up back in Portugal had a lot of guts!

Jim wrote: "Larry wrote: "Good stories, Jim. We live in a chemical world, and you are so smart to do that research on the pesticides you use."

I appreciate it, but I'm terribly ignorant. I'm not a chemist & s..."

I'm watching one of those food documentaries ... The Future of Food or something like that ... about Monsanto suing farmers for their patented GMO plants winding up on farms where they aren't supposed to be (shame on those damn winds! Off with the heads of those Queen Bees!) And how Round-up works, and all the other stuff that make me just want to crawl into a cave and eat dirt, it's so depressing. You just can't get away from that stuff.

Nancy wrote: " I'm watching one of those food documentaries ... The Future of Food or something like that ... about Monsanto suing farmers for their patented GMO plants winding up on farms where they aren't supposed to be (shame on those damn winds! Off with the heads of those Queen Bees!) .."

I was director of Trade Policy for Asia and the Americas for five years for USDA. Watching the naked display of power by Monsanto and some other companies and industries was sometimes not a very pleasant sight.