The Sword and Laser discussion

Disclaimer:
I read this book several years ago, and I read the UK edition which combines Magician: Apprentice with Magician: Master, so my memory of it isn't 100%, nor do I have any idea where the divide between the two volumes is supposed to go.

So. Confession. I really did not like this book, for a few different reasons, but if you asked me to sum up in a single word what I think is wrong with it, that word would be 'dated'. The world-building, the characterisation, the plot - it all feels stale and derivative. And let's not even get started on the way Feist portrays his female characters (or rather, I'll let someone else start that particular conversation).

Reading a few other people's thoughts, it seems like this is a book a lot of people feel nostalgic about, so I'm intrigued to hear from people who originally read this back in the 80s and/or as a child. Do you have fond memories? Does it stand up to a re-read or has it aged badly? And I'm also interested to hear from younger S&L-ers (or older ones encountering this book for the first time). Do you need a misty-eyed nostalgia filter to enjoy it - or has it attracted new readers who love it? Has it actually aged like a good single malt whisky and really my problem is that I just don't like whisky?

(This is a good analogy for me because I really don't like whisky, however fancy-single-malt-aged-in-oak-barrels it is!)

I just read it for the first time last month, but I can safely say that even the teenage me of 1982 would have found it derivative.

That said, I didn’t find it offensive. Nothing jumped out at me on any subject. It is palatable Extruded Fantasy Product, the equivalent of non-taxing generic TV. It’s the Chicago Med/Chicago Fire/Chicago PD of books.

Being written in the 80s is irrelevant to the discussion. Fantasy (and Sci-Fi) has not got better or worse in the, (only), near 40 years since then.

Relative to the genre, It's either good or it isn't. I wouldn't put it in the top echelon of Fantasy titles, but it is far from the worse.

Yes it is derivative. At least in the first half of the book "Pug and Tomas" (The half we are reading as the Book pick.) I did find the second half "Milamber and Valheru" was more original.

I was an adult when I read it back in 1983. Well, as adult as I was ever going to get. Only girls mature, Boys just get bigger ;-)

Tassie Dave wrote: "Boys just get bigger"

Some*

I'm about 10% of the way in and, well, Medieval Fantasy seems to have passed me by. As for the particulars of this book, it's so heavy on "tell not show" as to be almost unreadable. Were this a current-day Indie book by a friend of mine I would tell him to go back, rewrite and edit.

Some plot points are delivered with such a bludgeon that I feel like I am in Monty Python and the Holy Grail when Arthur, needing a shrubbery, stumbles upon someone who comments that he's a shrubber.

But, it's not just this one. I had little interest in reading The Sword of Shannara or any Brandon Sanderson. Wheel of Time left me cold. I can enjoy truly great Medieval Fantasy like LOTR or Narnia, but little else.

I'll finish this book, partly because it's easy and I can read it quickly. Unless it greatly improves I won't be moving on to the others. But what the heck do I know? The author sold oodles of these books and had a fine career as a writer. It's just not for me.

There has been some comment on the Discord about this one leaning heavily on Tolkien, but of course Feist is not alone in this (at least he didn't name his Mount Doom analogue "The Mountain of Doom", a la Robert Jordan).

It's all a bit clunky. The dialogue is bad. The women are portrayed badly (The princess in Krondor? Give me a break. She's six.) The plot is a jerky train, picking up speed the whole time but definitely lurching. The blatant racism! Which I have to remind myself makes the book a product of its time more than anything else.
As a teenager I probably wouldn't have minded (I wouldn't have noticed the racism, let's be real). Picking this up for the first time in my late thirties, I didn't enjoy it.

Having said that, I'm reading non-US market version with other half of the story, and I've kept going past Apprentice. None of my criticisms of the first are changed in the second, except now I'm halfway I may as well read the whole thing and log it in my GR stats.

Racism?

I didn't find the women portrayed too badly. They did have lesser active roles in a martial, medieval-like society at war. Princess Carline and Anita (the Magicians: Master aka Magicians Book 2, sixteen yo version) do have somewhat fleshed out storylines.

From what I remember, they do go on to have increased and significant roles in the rest of the trilogy.

Trike wrote: "Racism?"

Yeah, I'm confused as well. I'm 90% finished the full book and haven't encountered any. Or it's so subtle than I'm missing it.

Trike wrote: "Tassie Dave wrote: "Boys just get bigger"

Some*"

Is that a jab at me being vertically challenged?
:-?


;-)

Trike wrote: "Racism?"

One thing that did jump out at me when I was reading a plot summary to refresh my memory was that the character of Gardan is an absolutely perfect example - possibly the ur-example - for this tweet:

“ Well met, stranger! Welcome to Small But Noble EuroWhite Fantasy Kingdom! We have exactly One Black, and he is always our Captain of the Guard”

https://twitter.com/jifueko/status/12...

Ruth wrote: "Trike wrote: "Racism?"

One thing that did jump out at me when I was reading a plot summary to refresh my memory was that the character of Gardan is an absolutely perfect example - possibly the ur-..."

This is a long series and the characters rise to level of that their talents will take them. (view spoiler)[In a later book, Gardan rises to be a Duke in Krondor (hide spoiler)]

Ruth wrote: "Trike wrote: "Racism?"

One thing that did jump out at me when I was reading a plot summary to refresh my memory was that the character of Gardan is an absolutely perfect example - possibly the ur-..."

Hmm, I don’t know. If anything that might be an example of tokenism, which Epic Fantasy is particularly bad at. (Which is related to the trope of “Planet of Hats”, where everyone is the same. Each elf is *every* elf. Each dwarf is *every* dwarf. Each Klingon is *every* Klingon.)

Racism implies that entire races are uniformly evil or corrupt, like the orcs in Lord of the Rings or the Ferengi in Star Trek. I didn’t really get that from this book. There seem to be good and bad people in every society.

Tassie Dave wrote: "Is that a jab at me being vertically challenged?"

I would never! Some of my best friends are short!

The I think this book is a teenage nerd boy power trip, the same kind of stuff I read throughout the eighties. A country boy gets chosen to be on a quest where he will see the world and become bigger than his original in town could hold. It's simply the comfort food of fantasy, where disparate groups of peoples will overcome differences to defeat an implacable foe and the hero will conquer the bad guy, similar to the any hero's tale.

Since GRRM's Game of Thrones got popular, characters are more flawed and complicated. (not saying there weren't darker fantasies before, as there were) He used books like this derived from Tolkien to play with expectations for some great emotional twists. People are now used to character flaws and destructive rivalries, so that the characters from books like this seem quaint.

I am definitely feeling nostalgia on this one and see the flaws in the characters and know right where this plot is going. Yet, there is something nice about the familiar, especially now.

Trike wrote: "Racism?"

Maybe racism is not the word I wanted. Colonialism is a better fit (although colonialism is definitely predicated on racism). I bookmarked the passage that made me rage, although there are other instances. Spoiler tags, obviously.

(view spoiler)[Tchakachakalla bent his head slightly while listening, then nodded. He rose and said, ‘Tchakachakalla understand.’ Then with a grin he added, ‘Soon, I be your man. Good lord need good warrior. Tchakachakalla good warrior.’
‘Tully, take them along, and find out how much Tchak . . . Tchakal . . .’ Arutha laughed. ‘I can’t pronounce that mouthful.’ To the slave he said, ‘If you’re to serve here, you need a Kingdom name.’
The slave looked about and then gave a curt nod.
Longbow said, ‘Call him Charles. It’s as close a name as I can imagine.’
Arutha said, ‘As good a name as any. From now on, you will be called Charles.’

The 'oh ho ho your language is weird and I can't be bothered with trying', especially with a clearly Asian analogue versus a clearly White Euro analogue, left a bad taste in my mouth. There is a character later on who says "We couldn’t understand what they [the Tsurani] said; their tongue is more suited for monkeys than men". (hide spoiler)]

I don't have a problem with racist or bigoted characters, because that's people and good world-building should have real people. I don't even have a problem with colonialism in a story, because that's also people.

I think my problem here is that in modern fiction there would be a character 'hanging a lantern' on the problematic behaviour to call it out and that's what's leaving me uncomfortable. Everyone in this story is accepting of this behaviour. But, of course, it wasn't socially necessary to do this in fiction in the not-too-distant past and the book is a product of its time.

to answer your original question Ruth. I'm in my early thirties and I feel I missed the train on this one. I think if I read it when I was younger I would love it. has alot of elements I like. but 20% In and magicians: Apprentice still has not grabbed me yet at all. I can see my eye drifting to my growing TBR list. think the problem maybe investment as many say it's a long series and the second half/second book is where the story get interesting. I already want to return to Sandersons' stormlight archives where I have invested time already.

Wow, that "haha, can't pronounce your Name, you get a new one" does hurt now.

As mentioned in another thread, this is one of those Fantasy works that I surely have read - we even named part of our RPG world after it and blatantly stole other stuff, but I cannot remember a single plot Point about it.

I will try to get around for a reread to see how it feels nowadays.

And I would say Fantasy has evolved a lot since then - my best example is the Dark Elf books About Drizzt. Salvatore himself came to realise what an awful message the whole depiction of a Dark Skinned = Evil race was and has adapted that view in universe. Even going so far and having Drizzt himself encounter a Goblin (another Always Evil race) and challenging him for his preconceptions.

Here I was thinking, for a 1980s Fantasy book, not bad. I found Pug and Thomas a bit likeable. . The Princesses would have fit right in with the new crop of Disney Princesses.

Tassie Dave wrote: "I didn't find the women portrayed too badly. They did have lesser active roles in a martial, medieval-like society at war."

That's a myth. Premodern armies were always accompanied by large numbers of civilians, many of them women, who kept the soldiers fed and clothed, and who often got caught up in battles. Further, women in warzones struggling to keep their families alive are every bit as active as the men doing the fighting.

Elizabeth wrote: "Trike wrote: "Racism?"

Maybe racism is not the word I wanted. Colonialism is a better fit (although colonialism is definitely predicated on racism). I bookmarked the passage that made me rage, alt..."

I read your problem passage but I guess I am not really sure what you are saying the problem is. Is it the name change from the 1st paragraph?

I do agree regarding the "monkey" comment is inappropriate at best.

Elizabeth wrote: "Trike wrote: "Racism?"

Maybe racism is not the word I wanted. Colonialism is a better fit (although colonialism is definitely predicated on racism). I bookmarked the passage that made me rage, alt..."

This is one of the problems with splitting what is clearly one book in two. The second half of the book moves past these stereotypes and is far more interesting than the by the numbers medieval Euro fantasy world.

There are so many stereotypes in this book that there is no room to move!

I must admit I was more shocked by the sexism that runs through the book.

I first read Magician shortly after is came out in 1982 when I was reading every fantasy and SF book I could lay my hands on. I enjoyed it back then and the plot stuck with me so it must have hit a chord.

I definitely preferred the parts of the books based in Kelewan which seemed much more imaginative. The followup Daughter of Empire books are also a big improvement on these.

Reading it again nearly forty years later the book doesn't hold up well. The plot is too simplistic and the characters are not very interesting (not a Boromir among them) . Not a patch on Lord of the Rings.

For all of that it is much more enjoyable than the nihilism of Joe Abercrombie and his ilk who have no decent characters (no racism here, everyone is awful). .

Sean wrote: "Tassie Dave wrote: "I didn't find the women portrayed too badly. They did have lesser active roles in a martial, medieval-like society at war."

That's a myth. Premodern armies were always accompan..."

I wasn't undermining women's roles in society and history. I meant that comment as pertaining to the women and events of this book.

Most of the latter part of the whole book (Magician) was dealing with the war. The women were kept away from the battles and we only got scenes with them as the battle or politics came to those areas.

We do get some great action scenes with the women, but I acknowledge they are under utilised.

I'm still forming my thoughts on the portrayal of women - since we're only discussing the first half of Magician.

Iain wrote: "There are so many stereotypes in this book that there is no room to move!"

I wonder if the issue here is publishers. The first half is one giant bag of trope. The second is much better fleshed out and a standard I'd expect of a first-time writer - it's perfectly fine, not exceptional. Is the first book so one-dimensional because the publishers wanted a bland, generic, guaranteed-to-sell fantasy, and then let Feist have the book he actually wanted to write in the second?

Conal wrote: "I read your problem passage but I guess I am not really sure what you are saying the problem is. Is it the name change from the 1st paragraph?"

Yes, that is representative of the problem I have.

Conal wrote: "I read your problem passage but I guess I am not really sure what you are saying the problem is. Is it the name change from the 1st paragraph?"

Yes, that is representative of the problem I have.

I guess we have different outlook on this. I have worked for a Japanese owned company (in the US) for more than 30 years and it is a common practice for Japanese nationals who come here for work purpose (at least those whose job would involve customer interaction) develop a use name. This is mostly done for comprehension purpose/understanding rather than a sign of problems with their true name.

Conal - re-read the passage in the spoiler. It's racist as hell. You're also conflating two VERY different things... in your case, a Japanese national comes here and *they* decide to adopt a work name that's easier for English speakers. In the passage above, the new name is imposed because the person imposing doesn't feel it's worth the effort to try to pronounce a 'foreign' name.

I have read the passage as well as the book and I still am of the opinion that use names are for the most part used for comprehension/understanding no matter where the name came from (and unless the new name is used to denigrate the person than it is not racist). The experience of going through life with an unusual or hard to pronounce name is always going to put up barriers that have to be overcome (believe me I know).

Conal wrote: "I have worked for a Japanese owned company (in the US) for more than 30 years and it is a common practice for Japanese nationals who come here for work purpose (at least those whose job would involve customer interaction) develop a use name."

I had a similar experience with an Indian company I worked with for 20 years. A lot of the Indians went by a shortened version of their name or by their initials to save us dumb aussies butchering their names.

I will agree that imposing a name on an individual, if they don't choose to do it themselves, is culturally insensitive. I wouldn't go as far as to call it racist. Unless the name itself is racist or the intent is to be hurtful.

Interesting, heated discussion above. I haven't gotten far enough to have an opinion on most of it.

I'm now at about the 30% mark. My interest level has progressed from "how in god's name did this get published?" to "modestly interesting read." The endless telling seems to be over and with the plot progression looks like it won't be back. Well, I can hope.

Conal wrote: "I have read the passage as well as the book and I still am of the opinion that use names are for the most part used for comprehension/understanding no matter where the name came from (and unless th..."

Then you fail to appreciate the difference in agency and respect between choosing to do something and having something forced on you.

Let us remember that racism is a system and that identifying it in a work or even a person is not a personal attack. It is rather a good data Point to check your own privilege.

The quoted passage is a prime example of colonial privilege. "My language ad my comprehension is the important one, yours does not matter and has to change." This

Even if the persons choose call names by themselves, isn't it obvious that this empowers you over them? Why is it okay that they change their given names to make your life easier instead of the other way round?

I have no Problem enjoying the work and still highlighting its probems, hoping that myself as a reader and writer learn something and do better in the future.

Now at about the 40% mark when they're on the run against the Dark Path and, well, (view spoiler)[no one looked at Pug and asked him if he could throw the same spell he did against the trolls? Kinda seems like that would be a good time to throw a wide-effect spell to take out the enemy. (hide spoiler)]

At about the 50% mark. It's picked up, although WOW is this book by the numbers! All the way to the dwarves (view spoiler)[having mines that they can use to cut off obstacles.

I think what bothers me most about the book at this point is the MC is pretty much an observer to events. He doesn't affect anything but his own small life. At least not yet. (hide spoiler)]

John (Taloni) wrote: "At about the 50% mark. It's picked up, although WOW is this book by the numbers! All the way to the dwarves having mines that they can use to cut off obstacles.

I think what bothers me most about..."

Re: your spoiler, yeah that bothered me too

At about the 66% mark. It's okay fast-reading if thoroughly stereotypical. Was thinking about that aspect in relation to one of Tom's comments on the podcast.

There's no intrigue in this book. Characters are straight up. We don't worry (view spoiler)[if the dwarves are leading the group into the mines to betray them. Enemies are obvious enemies and act like it. Elves are declared friends and treat humans as such. The Kingdom is a bunch of backstabbers but are declared to be up front. The dragon in the mines is a friend, says so, and acts like it. Everyone is what they appear to be no subterfuge included. (hide spoiler)]

Elizabeth wrote: " Is the first book so one-dimensional because the publishers wanted a bland, generic, guaranteed-to-sell fantasy, and then let Feist have the book he actually wanted to write in the second?"

What part of 'one book split into two for the US market' didn't you understand. Or do you mean your read Magician and Silverthorn?

John (Taloni) wrote: "There's no intrigue in this book. Characters are straight up.."

That's not necessarily so. Not everything or everyone is as it/they appear(s) and doesn't become apparent to much later in the book (Magician) or later in the series.

we are circling back to my problem how many pages do I have to read till It gets interesting? how many book do I have to buy?

Some of us found it interesting from Page 1.

If it's not grabbing you by the end of Magician: Apprentice, then it's probably not going to. If you enjoyed M:A then you will enjoy M:M more. I rate the second half 1 Star higher than the first half (From 3 to a 4 Star rating)

AndrewP wrote: "What part of 'one book split into two for the US market' didn't you understand."

Wow, thanks. I guess I didn't understand and said the completely obvious part out loud.

I am a little over halfway through and was enjoying it until they hit the road and everything just became a Tolkein retread. I'm hoping things get better once they get where they're going. I am not usually a character development over plot person, but so far, their adventures on the trail have been skim material for me.

Nils wrote: "Let us remember that racism is a system and that identifying it in a work or even a person is not a personal attack. It is rather a good data Point to check your own privilege.

The quoted passage..."

To go somewhat (completely) off topic. I don't think it always that easy and obvious. Depending on your first language there will be sounds used in other languages that just won't be able to produce without extensive speech training (or sometimes not at all).
I spent 10 months in the US and absolutely no one was able to pronounce my name correctly. And it was not from lack of trying. I guess my point is, when you get into the details things often become complicated.

That doesn’t mean that the scene in this book isn't a particular bad example of "foreigners are weird, let's give this man a 'normal' name".

Did anyone else wonder why Pug or the Magician training him ( I can't think of his name right now) did not use magic for the 2nd half of the book. It seemed Pug got into a fix in the beginning of the book and magic would suddenly happen. But not when he really needed it. (view spoiler)[ When he got kidnapped is a really good example. It also didn't seem that the Magician did much other after he created a fog bank to hid them in. (hide spoiler)] This really annoyed me. Other than that it was a decent read. I may read the next but not sure yet.

^Yep, I was complaining about (spoiler) in my own spoiler, message 31 above. What was the point of magic then?

Joyce wrote: "Did anyone else wonder why Pug or the Magician training him ( I can't think of his name right now) did not use magic for the 2nd half of the book. It seemed Pug got into a fix in the beginning of t..."

This is all explained in the 2nd half of the book (Magician: Master) so I won't go into details if you want to continue reading.

Are there any queer characters in this saga? I spent the first half of the book expecting Pug to realize that he was in love with Tomas, hence his ambivalence towards Carline.

Heather wrote: "Are there any queer characters in this saga? I spent the first half of the book expecting Pug to realize that he was in love with Tomas, hence his ambivalence towards Carline."

This book is so vanilla....

Heather wrote: "Are there any queer characters in this saga? I spent the first half of the book expecting Pug to realize that he was in love with Tomas, hence his ambivalence towards Carline."

Gay people didn’t exist in 1982.

Trike jokes, but gay relationships were much less the norm in fiction even a decade or two back. Sticking to Fantasy of about the same era, Thomas Covenant went around the Land for three books with Saltheart Foamfollower, a twelve foot tall hunky Giant, with nothing more than fellowship between them. And going further back, we can joke about Frodo and Samwise, but Tolkien didn't intend anything sexual. Nor really any of the Hobbits, nor even the centuries old, presumably bored Elves.

Trike wrote: "Heather wrote: "Are there any queer characters in this saga? I spent the first half of the book expecting Pug to realize that he was in love with Tomas, hence his ambivalence towards Carline."

Gay people didn't exist in 1982.

I know, right?

I read the newer/revised edition and it was OK? I had (at least) two problems with the book's pacing and structure. The first is that the story line routinely jumps years with hardly more than a by-your-leave. That certainly could have been done much better. Second, there was a logical way to kind of time-share Tomas and Pug and the tail end of the first book focused mostly on Tomas and had very little about Pug, which makes sense because he was the actual Magician's App...oh, right.
Still, I wanted to see what happened in the story, so I went through the second book as well. I'm had a prediction about one of the major plot devices in the book which had to do with the wizard Macros. I was totally wrong (and fine with that), but I'll put it in spoilers anyway. (view spoiler)[I thought we were going to find out the Macros was older Pug blown through the past of some other such thing. Nope. (hide spoiler)]