Vision Quest Café- Book Club for a More Beautiful World discussion
The More Beautiful World
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Transition Between Worlds
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I would love to believe that now is the turning point but I've believed that a couple of times in recent years and felt the fall after it didn't happen. My want to protect myself from another big fall pushes me towards a cautionary cynicism which of course the book has a whole chapter of its own on and discusses the cynics' apparoach of protection in detail. That said, I do agree that it's undoubtedly an unprecedented time that we've entered into and there is the possibility that this may provoke an absolute shift in the mindset of the masses. Based on only the people I am connected with (family, friends, people living in the area) I just don't think we're there yet. I don't believe the collective 'we' have been through enough to change our ways, by saying that I don't wish to undermine the huge suffering that so many people are going through now.
Your comments around "profound change only happening through collapse" very much resonate. It makes decision making much easier when all the other options are just so unappealing or even nonexistent!
Applying this to society I think there is so much variability in individual people's readiness to change. I don't know what would be needed for this variation to level out (if it's even necessary at all). Some of us have been jumping up out of our sleep for years, calling others we love to join us and see how different it could be, only to be met with blank faces, ignoring what we may have shared. I've had this disappointing experience many times even recently when sharing something of a consciousness shifting nature on Facebook which not one person acknowledges. Yet when it comes to nominating music albums that define them people can't get enough of it!
Maybe the shift is occuring at an individual level and that by progressing on our own journey we are preparing a collective shift to occur and realising our interconnectedness in the process?
Mod
Hi Lorna! Yes I can totally relate to how you feel when people around you don´t seem to listen or be in the slightest bit interested. I have also been through that and continue to do so!
But you know what? I think you are completely right in what you said about our realising and deepening in our own paths and our interconnectedness. I think that is why I feel so compelled to try to connect with other like-minded people right now. I have had enough of my secret in the closet spirituality and I am tired of hiding my true voice for fear of ridicule (A more beautiful world? yeah right!). For me, it´s a time to reach out to others who are also on the same path so we can join hands and hold each other up.
Because like you said, after so many disappointments and the pain that living in this society can bring us, it can be difficult to keep that dream alive. Like the book says, that naive part of us that wants to believe but has been betrayed so many times that it doesn´t dare risk it. I think it´s important to recognise that wounded part of ourselves and give it the love and nourishment it is craving. Allow it to be for as long as it needs to be before it can regain its strength.
I think that's where aligning with like-minded people comes in, even if just an online book club! Once enough people begin to have the courage to dream maybe something can happen. And it is so much easier to be courageous in a group.
Maybe it seems inward-looking to only talk about connecting with like-minded people when there is so much to be done and there are so many people who are yet to see it, but ultimately I think it´s much more powerful to lead by example. I have also tried to tell friends and family time and time again but ultimately it can have the opposite effect and inevitably leads to me feeling crap. Now that many years later, I don´t care what they they do or think, they are starting to pay more attention!
It can also be a huge drain on your energy when you are trying to show someone who doesn´t want to be shown. Better put that energy into yourself and your path I´d say.
I want to really thank you for the sincerity of your comments because I think it is true for so many people. I´m sure many people will be able to resonate with your experience.
I wonder about how powerful we could all be and what we could do in the world if we could collectively heal that fundamental doubt about whether a more beautiful world is possible...because your doubt is also my doubt and the next persons doubt.
I even had and still do have massive doubts about whether this book club is going to work or whether it will be a massively flop! But somehow I feel that this is what the world really needs- and what I really need...and maybe that counts of something?
Thinking about what the book says about every action being connected and significant...maybe this very conversation is sending energy to people in other parts of the world who are having the same thoughts and experiences as us.
So that being said, is it not worth believing that it could be true through the pain of lifetimes of disappointments, just in case? And believing that these tiny steps we take individually count towards something?
Now I am rambling. Not sure if I have made any sense but I guess that is what a discussion forum is for right, exploration of new thoughts and ideas as they hatch! Sending you a big energy-filled hug Lorna!
Olivia wrote: "Lorna wrote: "I would love to believe that now is the turning point but I've believed that a couple of times in recent years and felt the fall after it didn't happen. My want to protect myself from..."It just made me feel so good to read your post as what you've said deeply resonated.
I very much appreciate the bringing together of like minded beings for discussing, sharing, dreaming and supporting each other.
When starting something or make a change in life you have your reasons but after time you can then see all of the offshoots, the connections, the ideas, the synchronicities and the growth and it's loads more than you ever would have imagined when starting out. And for those who feel the pull to connect they won't need any convincing!
Well I'd say even if it's just the two of us talking about the book and our experinces that'd be a big tick for me! Of course, I would also love to hear from others if they're drawn to share.
And yes, I would have to admit it's worth dreaming of a better world for sure.
For me the key is bringing these dreams outside like you mentioned and turning them into a reality. I think having something so rich and well structured as this book as a focus, combined with our own views, experiences and questions may really help to bring very subtle ideas, energies and dreams into the material plane. This is something I've been missing in the past, that bridge between the inner and outer worlds. And also working though barriers, uncovering our own blind spots and assumptions about how we've been programmed to believe life is.
I've just read through this thread and I have a big smile and a warm heart and I'm still nodding because, well, it all rings so true! And I know through this exercise I'm going to be pushed to find new words so I won't have to use "resonate" over and over again! Lorna, I can relate to the things you're saying, and Olivia, your reply is so very well constructed and hopeful and I'm so with you!
What we're doing now, and what you've created, Olivia, is this space for us to come together, because that's what we need. Enough of arguments falling on deaf ears. Enough of that frustration of people not understanding the gravity of the situation.
"is it not worth believing that it could be true through the pain of lifetimes of disappointments, just in case? And believing that these tiny steps we take individually count towards something?"
Yes! And how happier will we be if we start looking at what we can do, and make a positive change even if it's tiny? And find ways of living that correspond to our beliefs?
I had a breakthrough a couple of weeks ago. I was treading dangerously close to disconnecting from my closest family members, because I finally let go of the need to please them, appease them, and silencing my views for the sake of avoiding conflict (this is not to say I didn't speak up - but that many times I did I'd end up frustrated, sometimes angry, and feeling alone and not understood). And that empowered me to speak my truth - but it was unexpected and met with resistance, and I didn't react well. And then I remembered what's important - that I love these people, I care deeply about them, and I'm passionate about finding better ways to communicate, so as I work on this (reading the book Non-violent communication is really helping) we can all come to benefit from this, and heal our relationships (I believe and hope).
Leading by example is for sure the best way of teaching. And teaching to those who seek to be taught, they will come when the time is right. Trying to teach someone something when they don't seek it is so often met with resistance.
I think this is key. If we have the passion in our hearts, the yearning for a more beautiful world, we should put this valuable fuel to good use!! We should channel it into positive outlets.
OK so back to the question at hand - this time, yes I believe is a truly special time. It's a liminal state - betwixt and between worlds, in the process of establishing what certainly will be a "new normal"
Let us not forget that as we've been in lockdown, maybe embracing this time for more introspection, so too have many many people in powerful positions, and they too will have been asking big questions. I was in a talk yesterday with some people that work with big business leaders, and it was said that some of the questions they've been asking in boardrooms have huge implications - how to get people to consume less, how to work with competitors to create systemic change... (I would love for it to be more radical, but it's at least not business as usual) and the CEO of the AA in the UK has urged the government to consider NOT going ahead with a huge plan to build more motorways, and invest instead in broadband so more people can work from home. These things are big! and hopeful!
What if we just pushed the doubt aside - and with the belief, took action that we really want to see. I'm noticing that as I'm reading more and more about permaculture, watching films, talking to people about it, my imagination is getting more and more active, and I'm having lots of ideas of positive action I could start to take. I've spent too long wishing the changes I wish to see just happen, and for me to slip in somewhere somehow, but I'm starting to see that I must shift that apathy and replace it with action.
"Does that resonate with anyone else? do you think that this kind of micro-macro idea holds any truth? i.e. the same rules that govern our own transformation govern societal transformation?" For sure!
"Do you think we could be approaching the tipping point of change and transitioning towards a different ´world´ so to speak?"
Yes, and I think we have to really acknowledge our role - our collective role in bringing about this shift. If we are approaching this tipping point it is because enough people are making the shift. So we have to be part of it.
Ok I hope in future posts to stick a bit more to the questions asked and points raised, and structure better my responses!
So happy to be here!
Mod
first of all about your family- good for you for speaking your truth! I have felt more and more recently that I ´m tired of swallowing it back down or putting up with listening to something that I don´t agree with just to keep the peace. I did a course online with Lee Harris in April and he had a great piece of advice about this. He said, when in this situation you could just say ´´well, I don´t quite see it like that so we can either discuss it and listen to each other or else talk about something else.´´ More or less something like that! or something about when you are listening to a comfortable you don´t feel comfortable with, you could say ´I don´t quite feel comfortable with this conversation, so if you want to continue I will have to leave´´...more or less something like this- obviously in a defensive way. But I´m sure you know this already if you have been reading about non-violent communication (which I am really interested in, by the way, I will have to check the book out that you mentioned!).
secondly- your experience is that talk you mentioned is really interesting and heartening! great to hear. I think that such a shock such as this must have some effect on this in the future. Although it´s true that now that things are opening up again, it will be interesting to see if any changes stick!
Like you I have been opening myself up to lot´s of new things. It´s all invisible for now, from the outside someone might think that I´ve not advanced much, but on the inside, I feel like things are changing rapidly (with my blog and this project etc). So I wonder if the same is true for others? Like seeds spouting below the surface...maybe we are going to have be patient to see any real changes for a while.
And so glad to hear you are feeling inspired to take positive action! that´s amazing that you feel like your imagination is getting more and more active, reimagining what is possible...you go girl! It sounds like your time has come to step up! :D
Olivia wrote: "´´We live today in a moment of transition between worlds´´ page 3.What is your feeling on this?
For me, I feel like it is could be pertinent to what is happening in the world right now...so muc..."
I love all of your thoughts here Olivia, Lorna, and Aurelie! Thank you for including me in the discussion. After reading Chapter 1, I feel a sense that a change is going to come and is boiling within me. In response to the original question you posed, Olivia, I loved Eisenstein's mentioning of the transition between worlds and his acknowledgement that its happening to all of us, even him, as we reach for the next phase of living. One of the highlights of the book so far for me is the mention of each individual as the agent for change, and like Lorna says the huge, massive shift will come about when we get people who are aware of the interconnectedness in positions of control or power. I am reminded here of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez who drew up the Green New Deal with not just the environment in mind but also the economy and other departments in existence.
Personally, I know the most about the department or structure of education as we currently know it. I would love to bring about change in that department to find equity and reshape the view of humanity that lawmakers and decision-makers have of the way it should function. Thanks for the prompt and I hope you have a wonderful day!
Mod
What is your feeling on this?
For me, I feel like it is could be pertinent to what is happening in the world rig..."
Hey Micheal! Thanks for joining us! Thanks for the insightful comments. I am also a huge fan of Alexandria Ocasio Cortez- let´s hope that more politicians and lawmakers spring up like her!
About what you said about a boiling change happening within you, I am totally feeling that right now...things a moving on the inside even though nothing is happening on the outside!
Looking forward to sharing more of the book with you!
Hope you have a lovely day too!
Hi all!Just wanted to leave a little message to say I LOVE CHARLES and I wish everyone would read his work, I'm 100% with him and he shares the message in a lovely way.
I almost want to memorise some of the things he writes for future discussions with others, because he manages to say so well what I want to say and struggle to - that EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED - which is too much of a platitude that does nothing to explain the concept to a skeptic, and Charles lays the connections out very well, methodically and persuasively. So then it leads me to think, perhaps when we read something that resonates, that frustrates us for "preaching to the converted" - the task is to sing along, from the same hymn book, with him, so that more will hear it.
For years I've had this desire to write, to share my thoughts and dreams for a better world, but the things that stop me are several and rooted in what I'll refer to as 'what society did to me and I'm undoing' :P - not being good enough, not wanting to be loud, to bother others, to be perceived as 'preachy', to be perceived as un-modest, thinking I should be thinking more about things that will make me money, and eventually I'll write, someone else already saying the same thing...
The point I wanted to make was that THE MORE PEOPLE SPEAK ABOUT THESE THINGS, THE MORE PEOPLE WILL HEAR, so someone already doing it should never stop us, and that if we feel a calling we should heed to it!
Last little point, does anyone find themselves chuckling at the big words Charles uses? I've started a list of words I'd never heard before and their definitions, with no compunction :p
Have a lovely day!
Mod
Just wanted to leave a little message to say I LOVE CHARLES and I wish everyone would read his work, I'm 100% with him and he shares the message in a lovely way.
I almost want to memorise..."
So beautiful Aurélie! I am so happy that you are finding him to be so deeply inspiring! I also love him and his message and want the whole world to read it! Such as shame that there is still no Spanish translation because I´d love to share it with my partner. Like you said, there´s so many interconnected parts that it´s difficult to summarise and tell someone else about.
So cool what you said about singing from the same hymn sheet. I totally agree that the more people, the stronger the message.It gives us strength to go on and plus everyone has their own unique voice that makes it impossible to do the same as another person.
And about heeding the call- YES! DO IT! If you have always had the desire to write, then please, start writing! I would love to hear what you have to say and I´m sure that many others would too. Write for yourself, so that YOU can hear what you have to say. When I write I am often surprised myself by what comes out, like oh, i didn´t know I knew that!´. Then I read it back and think, ´´did i write that??´´ And I realise that the message was for myself.
And if I were you, I wouldn´t worry about remembering paragraphs or quotes from the book. I say that because when I first read it about 6 months ago, I read it so fast and thought I hadn´t taken it all in (which is partly true). I was just starting the blog at that time. And then now, when I´m reading the book again there are moments when I think ´´wait, I wrote about this in the blog´´. I think it works like an activation of the knowledge we already have but we don´t know it, hence why it resonates so much. And then when we come to express ourselves, his message (which has now become our message) has alchemised into our own, unique voice. It´s the same message but it is completely authentic to ourselves, not a regurgitation. And that´s where the power lies, in our authenticity.
I can tell that you would be a great writer Aurélie from some of the things you have written! Start a blog ;)
Oh lovely, thank you for the comment and the very kind words of inspiration and encouragement! It really means a lot.Yes I am fully with you about the integrating knowledge /remembering, and relaying it in our own voice. The same goes for experiences in life - we keep them with us somewhere, they affect our actions and behaviour continuously, without us needing to remember and relive them. Indeed the things that we say, think and do are products of everything we've thought, felt, seen, read, etc. But then as I write it it somehow goes against the other belief I have of the need to almost wipe that slate, in order to uncover our fundamental good, nature (if you are familiar with Buddhism, the Buddha nature is what I am referring to)... I guess herein lies a difference between wisdom, knowledge, experience...
I say these things about memorising what he writes because often when I speak about big issues I feel I lose track of myself, and go too far, and can't connect the dots to make my listener understand. Perhaps it's a case of being too self-critical, but does anyone else feel this sometimes? Then I think by writing, and sharing thoughts - like here, we can solidify our arguments /ideas, and communicate them more effectively in the future.
On that note, I wonder if you've thought about having a live session on sharing book ideas? No pressure whatsoever!
Mod
And really interesting you point about how our experiences and past shape our behaviours now. I am feeling that quite a lot with this whole online thing with the social media etc. I have never been one to seek attention from the crowd or post to Facebook etc and now I´m coming up against these old tendencies, maybe based on past experiences of feeling like I don´t fit in or that i am different in some way, and it´s a real block sometimes! I´m trying to get over that!
And about live session- yes I was recently toying with that idea! I think it would be really cool! So if you are up for, it why should do it! I feel like then it would really make our little group ´´something´´ :)
What is your feeling on this?
For me, I feel like it is could be pertinent to what is happening in the world right now...so much strangeness, disruption and chaos- could these be birthing pains of a new way of doing things?
Similarly, ´´profound change only happening through collapse´´ really spoke to me.
I can really see how this has been applicable to my life over and over. It seems like I only really make an effort to really change when I can no longer put up with whatever it is that I need to change.
As in, I can put up with low-level discomfort for a while if making a change is difficult, but only when the discomfort grows to a point where I can´t take it anymore do I say ´enough!´´ and take action. I always thought that if this was true for me and my own evolution, then it must also be true for society. As a society, we will only make those necessary and perhaps difficult changes when we are uncomfortable enough with the current way of doing things to take the risk.
Does that resonate with anyone else? do you think that this kind of micro-macro idea holds any truth? i.e. the same rules that govern our own transformation govern societal transformation?
Do you think we could be approaching the tipping point of change and transitioning towards a different ´world´ so to speak?
Or could you envisage this happening in the not so distant future, considering the current situation?
Lots of possibilities for discussion with this book it seems! Let´s get stuck in :)