The Sword and Laser discussion

We're going to get some good Discworld TV! We talk about why sometimes you don't want to read old stuff, and whether you're someone who likes depressing consequences or happily ever after stories. All that and our first non-spoiler impressions of Magician: Apprentice.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/36858145
https://soundcloud.com/swordandlaser/...
http://swordandlaser.com/home/2020/5/...

I think the best known example for an adaptation not liked by the author but in general considered very good is probably "The Shining". Stephen Kings hates the Stanley Kubrick movie because the shift of theme and message, but is in general considered a masterpiece...

Oh and the other big example is of course Disney's "Mary Poppins" which was very much disliked by PL Travers (even if the Disney movie about it - "Saving Mister Banks" - tries to make this a bit more ambiguous)

Jan wrote: "I think the best known example for an adaptation not liked by the author but in general considered very good is probably "The Shining". Stephen Kings hates the Stanley Kubrick movie because the shi..."

The Shining, of course! Even I should have known that one!

Authors hating good movies made from their books is actually quite common. I’m sure there are dozens of examples. A few off the top of my head:

Roald Dahl HATED Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

Winston Groom likewise despises Forrest Gump.

Ken Kesey hated One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest.

E.B. White (and his wife) hated Charlotte’s Web.

And a special bonus just for Veronica: Stanislaw Lem hated *both* versions of Solaris. 😆

Jan wrote: "I think the best known example for an adaptation not liked by the author but in general considered very good is probably "The Shining". Stephen Kings hates the Stanley Kubrick movie because the shi..."

Before quarantine, I rented Doctor Sleep on Blu-ray & watched all of the special features. Stephen King seems to have gotten over his original feelings about the Stanley Kubrick film. He at least accepted that it was best for the film version of Doctor Sleep to be a compromise. I think it worked out well. I really enjoyed both books & films.
Managing expectations is one of the keys to happiness, imo.

As requested in the podcast...

Interesting.

Arthur Clarke was pretty displeased with how 2001 turned out. Michael Moorcock has a an article that includes a pretty lengthy discussion of that. Long article, if you want to go straight to the film discussion, search on "2001" and go to the fifth occurrence.

https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/...

John (Taloni) wrote: "Arthur Clarke was pretty displeased with how 2001 turned out. Michael Moorcock has a an article that includes a pretty lengthy discussion of that. Long article, if you want to go straight to the fi..."

Does that one count? Clarke wrote the original short story, which is nothing much, but Kubrick and he developed the subsequent story together, with each putting their own spin on it. Clarke overexplaining and Kubrick underexplaining.

Lovecraft country has two high-level producers Jordan Peele of comedy central's Key and Peele fame has shown a talent for horror films US and Get out also host of the new twilight zone. J.J Abrams is a the Star Trek/Star Wars guy movies like Armageddon and Cloverfield and shows like Lost and Fringe. both are really involved in sci-fi genre. Tom was probably joking when he asked what they have done. But I took the bait!

“Happy Ever After” makes sense, of course. But when I heard HEA on the show, I thought, “Happy Ending Assured.” Which I think is more fitting. Sometimes I’m in the mood for a book where the author has made a contract with audience promising that no matter how bad things get, the book will end with a happy resolution. Often it isn’t “ever after,” since these are often part of a series with new troubles in the next book. But each book closes with a sense of peace and relaxation.

In sci fi, I think of the Union Station books by E. M. Foner.
Outside of Sword and Lasers, the No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency or even Wooster and Jeeves stories do this.

Sometimes it is a sort of palate cleanser between the dark and gritty reads. And sometimes I just need to manage my mood a bit.

I'd always understood HEA to be a Romance trope. Romance novels are expected to end Happily Ever After, or at least HFN - Happy For Now.

Seeing as the Shining was mentioned, I'll take the other low hanging fruit regarding authors who hate their adaption: Alan Moore famously detests all adaptions of his work to the point that he refuses to have his name on the credits.
To his credit, none of the adaptions do his work justice, in my opinion. The Watchmen HBO series was awesome, but the fact that it had a (mostly) HEA ending wasn't really what Moore was going for with that story.
So yeah, I don't know if he's too picky about his adaptions, but I'm willing to bet that after what happened to the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen adaption, he rightfully lost all hope.

Paul wrote: "Seeing as the Shining was mentioned, I'll take the other low hanging fruit regarding authors who hate their adaption: Alan Moore famously detests all adaptions of his work to the poin..."

True, but none of the adaptations of Moore’s stuff has been good, so it doesn’t fall into the category Veronica outlined of “good adaptation hated by the author.”

The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was so bad that it caused Sean Connery to retire from movies, and not even Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford could entice him back. (Which, given how Indy 4 turned out, was probably for the best.)

Speaking of HOV, in the time of corona do we get to travel in the HOV lane solo?

“I’m social distancing, Officer. Speedily.”

QuranCon2020 cost all of $147 dollars to put on. That is not counting the volunteered hours it took to get it going. You can still view the panels and reading on the YouTube channel .
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQRT...
May 16th is MayDay Con . You can subscribe here .
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCObU...
Mark Lawrence has the Fantasy side covered as regards to Self Published Books, But no such contest exists for Science Fiction. And if you think about it, It was The Martian and The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet that got me thinking that somewhere along the way Publishing Houses dropped the ball. Someone needs to do a Self Published Science Fiction Blog Off ( SPSFBO) . There is that need .

*sigh* I liked the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie. It's thoroughly different from the book, but I still enjoyed it. Huck Finn fit the story well, and I enjoyed Dorian Grey's appearance.

...probably about the same as people who like the Starship Troopers movie. I can see how fans of the original League find the movie a betrayal, just like I would say of the ST movie. *shrug*

Funny thing about Winston Groom hating Forrest Gump - because I was *not* impressed with the book (and the sequel is even worse). I know the movie is somewhat saccharine, but Forrest is an unpleasant character.

Trike wrote: "True, but none of the adaptations of Moore’s stuff has been good, so it doesn’t fall into the category Veronica outlined of “good adaptation hated by the author.”"
To be fair, the HBO Watchmen adaptation is at 95% on Rotten Tomatoes... What kind of standard do we expect an adaptation to have in order to be considered "good" ;-)

I read Forrest Gump when I was to young for the mature content. but I thought it was awful. my brother who liked the first read the sequel and claimed it unreadable. I will go to my grave believing Tom Hanks made that character. Groom should be honored!

what I mean is Forrest Gump is a forgettable character in literary terms. but one of the greatest characters in cinematic history because of Tom Hanks!

Jan wrote: "To be fair, the HBO Watchmen adaptation is at 95% on Rotten Tomatoes... What kind of standard do we expect an adaptation to have in order to be considered "good" ;-)"

I, and most people and critics agree that HBO's Watchmen was good. I won't go as far as Trike, and say it wasn't good. That's why I thought it fit the description.
But considering the book ended with(view spoiler)[ New York blowing up, and the heroes basically being bad people deciding what's best for humanity, the way the show ended (good guys being really good, bad guys being bad and dying, racists get blown up), (hide spoiler)]I think it was a bit of a betrayal of the book's message. But Moore from what I understand refuses on principal to have his name on adaptions, so I don't think he cares how good or true to the story the adaption is.

Very impressed by John's post. I've never met someone who liked League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Stand by your tastes, friend! And I also liked the Starship Troopers movie.

Jan wrote: "Trike wrote: "True, but none of the adaptations of Moore’s stuff has been good, so it doesn’t fall into the category Veronica outlined of “good adaptation hated by the author.”"
To be fair, the HBO Watchmen adaptation is at 95% on Rotten Tomatoes... What kind of standard do we expect an adaptation to have in order to be considered "good" ;-)"

I agree it’s quite good, but I don’t consider that an adaptation. Aside from the names, it’s more of a pseudo-sequel that reimagines the characters, recontextualizing the basic themes.

Joe Sherry wrote: "Funny thing about Winston Groom hating Forrest Gump - because I was *not* impressed with the book (and the sequel is even worse). I know the movie is somewhat saccharine, but Forrest is an unpleasa..."

Groom pretty much states his feelings in the first paragraph of the sequel, Gump and Co., “Let me say this: Everybody makes mistakes, which is why they put a rubber mat around spittoons. But take my word for it — don’t never let nobody make a movie of your life’s story.”

Paul wrote: "Jan wrote: "To be fair, the HBO Watchmen adaptation is at 95% on Rotten Tomatoes... What kind of standard do we expect an adaptation to have in order to be considered "good" ;-)"

I, and most people and critics agree that HBO's Watchmen was good. I won't go as far as Trike, and say it wasn't good."

I want to be clear: I think HBO’s Watchmen is very good. I highly recommend it.

But it’s not an adaptation of the comic book by Moore and Gibbons.

Trike wrote:
"I want to be clear: I think HBO’s Watchmen is very good. I highly recommend it.

But it’s not an adaptation of the comic book by Moore and Gibbons."

Well, by that measure the thing that sparked the discussion - "The Watch" TV series - isn't an adaptation of Terry Pratchett's novels either. It has characters loosely inspired by his works in a a modern world with a completely different plot.

And the argument that an adaptation is having a completely different message or outlook on the world is in 99% of all cases why authors dislike an adaptation. That's why King disliked The Shining (Movie-Jack is a horrible person from the beginning so there is no alcoholism parable anymore), that's why Michael Ende disliked The Neverending Story (it completely leaves out the second part of the story and thereby totally inverts the message), that's why PL Travers disliked Mary Poppins (it's not supposed to be cute and silly and palatable)

Therefore, I find "Watchmen" fits the discussion perfectly.

That’s not how I heard it, but whatevs. Not worth arguing about.

You are right. I just would prefer it if people would see adaptation more as a spectrum from more to less liberties taken with the source material and everyone sees the point when there's not enough similarities anymore differently. Is Cruel Intentions an adaptation of Dangerous Liaisons despite different setting, characters and plot points? Is Frozen an adaptation of the Snow Queen even though the only thing that remains is the idea of love melting an icy curse? What about Game of Thrones' last few seasons?

John (Taloni) wrote: "*sigh* I liked the League of Extraordinary ... probably about the same as people who like the Starship Troopers movie. "

Starship Troopers with the campiness and mindless bug-shooting action was so much better than the book's preachiness.

Seth wrote: "John (Taloni) wrote: "*sigh* I liked the League of Extraordinary ... probably about the same as people who like the Starship Troopers movie. "

Starship Troopers with the campiness and mindless bug..."

You are grounded for a week, young man.

John (Taloni) wrote: "*sigh* I liked the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie. It's thoroughly different from the book, but I still enjoyed it. Huck Finn fit the story well, and I enjoyed Dorian Grey's appearance.

...."

Someday I will read League, but I loved the movie when it was new. I haven't re-watched it recently. I also really enjoyed Starship Troopers & plan to read the book someday. I watched all of the Starship Troopers movies. I recognize that it's cornyy like the original Robocop & the acting is not great. I love corny movies sometimes. I recently had a lot of fun watching the Iron Sky films.

Jan wrote: " Is Cruel Intentions an adaptation of Dangerous Liaisons despite different setting, characters and plot points? Is Frozen an adaptation of the Snow Queen even though the only thing that remains is the idea of love melting an icy curse? ..."

I think it's useful to differentiate between things like this that clearly take inspiration from a work and stated adaptations.

Inspired by... works get to take liberties precisely because they're using the source work as a jumping off point. Adapted from... works are claiming that they are telling the same story within the limits posed by the new medium. You can allow divergence when comparing Cruel Intentions with Dangerous Liaisons... but when comparing the movie version of Dangerous Liaisons with the book of the same name it's fair to ask if the movie was faithful to the book.

Examples...

LotR the movie cut some scenes that were not needed (Tom Bombadil) and some that could be been there, might arguably have added to the movie but were expendable (the roundtable scene at Elrond's where they all discussed what to do with the Ring and where Frodo declared he'd bear it). But overall, the movies hewed pretty closely to the story told in the book.

Starship Troopers told a very different story with very different beats than the book and the criticism it gets is for claiming to adapt the book while doing that. I've not watched the HBO series of The Watchmen but from what people here have said, it makes very different points than the comic does.

Of course, it's a continuum - movies can't tell precisely the same story with all of the scenes as a book, they're different media and how they tell stories is simply not the same.

Rick wrote: "how they tell stories is simply not the same"

The *how* is different but you can arrive at the same destination. For instance, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and Blade Runner are very different in both style and specific story beats, but they end up in the same place, as meditations on empathy with the other.