Black Coffee discussion

Dawn by Octavia E. Butler

Reading Schedule: to be posted


Part I. Womb Monday, January 12 (Message 32)
Part II. Family Friday, January 16

How many are joining in for this one? Have any of you already read it?

I read it last month. I'm super excited about the discussion!

I read this book in the early 1990's. This was my first read by Octavia Butler (and the author quickly became my fav sci fi author) - so it is definitely one of my fav science fiction books.

But I am not a re-reader so probably will not be joining the discussion.

I hope everyone enjoys this book as much as I did.

I am so bummed. I can't find this book at my library. I was looking forward to reading it.

I read it a few months ago and can't wait to start the discussion. There is one character whose name I couldn't read without getting a twitching eye lol

Onni wrote: "I am so bummed. I can't find this book at my library. I was looking forward to reading it."

My library is the worst. My goal in life is to spend less money on books, but I keep buying. Maybe someone can lend it to you. Mine is on the kindle and it isn't lendable.

Linda wrote: "Onni wrote: "I am so bummed. I can't find this book at my library. I was looking forward to reading it."

My library is the worst. My goal in life is to spend less money on books, but I keep buyin..."

I don't know if they do this on Amazon.com, but the best option for me is to buy second hand books from Amazon.co.uk which are normally priced at 1 pence with a delivery fee of £2.80. It would probably be cheaper to buy them from second hand book stores, but who has time to be rummaging around in those shops on the off chance that you'll find the book you want:-)

Have you tried using your library's Interlibrary Loan service?
It takes a little longer than if the book is in the library but can usually get most books.

Also on Amazon.com the kindle edition is $1.99. Don't need a kindle to read just the kindle app on your phone, computer, etc.

Yes, Amazon.com does sell used/second hand books from their site, but this is a science fiction classic so the "used" prices may not be that low.

I'll be joining. On Amazon.com the prices were exorbitant (in my opinion) for a paperback copy of this book. I bought the Kindle edition instead.

Linda, my library didn't have it either!

I couldn't get it through an inter-library loan, I think my only option is to buy it.

My library did not have Dawn by itself but it did have Lilith's Brood

Dawn is included in that book as a part of the Xenogenesis Series.

You might have luck looking for it that way.

Thanks!

I just started reading this yesterday and I will probably finish tonight. I really love it! I think it will make for a great discussion. I think we should discuss it in the sections/parts that it is already divided into.

I. Womb
II. Family
III. Nursery
IV. The Training Floor

Womb is fairly short. Why don't we start discussing that on Friday, January 9.

If the first part is short I might be able to pull that off.

Hattie wrote: "Jumping in to just say I have Dawn by Butler. Ever since I read Kindred, I've wanted to read another of her books. Could never pick which one I wanted to read. I'm not good with Sci-Fi, but I'm wil..."

Kindred is the one people rave about the most. I've only discovered Octavia Butler recently through Goodreads and have to ration myself when it comes to reading all her works as I don't want to finish them too quickly.

I don't know anything about her life either, but really love her work.

There are several videos/podcasts/panels on Youtube regarding Octavia Butler.

In March 2013, Tananarive Due put together a tribute to Octavia Butler at Spelman. A lot of it was live-streamed so I am sure it is captured for viewing. I did watch the live-streaming and had me wanting to re-read Ms Butler's work.

http://wabe.org/post/spelman-college-...

I can add a hand-me-down anecdote. My brother went to one of her book signings in Seattle. He got there early, and she happened to be there. He engaged her in conversation. When he recounted the story to me, he said that she was very generous with her time and encouraging to him as a young writer. He was very saddened by her death. He told me that she slipped in the snow. Wikipedia says that her she may have had a stroke. Her estate is silent on the matter.

My brother loves science fiction, and Octavia Butler was the first science fiction writer that he insisted that I read.

Thanks for the link, Beverly. That is such a sweet story anecdote, Linda.

Linda wrote: "I can add a hand-me-down anecdote. My brother went to one of her book signings in Seattle. He got there early, and she happened to be there. He engaged her in conversation. When he recounted th..."

Linda -

It is so true what your brother said about Ms. Butler. I also had the honor of meeting her. She did not due many appearances and did not travel much so did not often make it to the East Coast.

So like your brother, we got there early (not surprising as we were not excited as soon as we heard she was coming to one of our favorite bookstores).

What struck me (and the others) was how humble she was. She said to us that she was so surprised that so many of us came out to hear what she had to say. And was so surprised that we loved her work.

We had our bags of books for her to sign and she took the time to speak to each of us personally.

We were so giddy. And this was not a giddy group especially as we were in our 40s, 50s & 60s.

In 1995 Octavia Butler became the first science fiction writer to receive the MacArthur Fellowship, nicknamed the Genius Grant.

Let's start discussing PART I: Womb (SPOILERS AHEAD)

Lilith Iyapo has awakened to find herself still imprisoned by unseen captors. Kept in solitary confinement in a room devoid of any type of sensory stimulation, she has barely managed to hold on to her sanity.

During one time of her captivity, Lilith decided that she would resist her unseen captors by refusing to speak to them, and they responded by refusing to speak to her.

What did you think about her silent protest

It seemed to be the only way of resisting her captors. There wasn't much else she could do.

I don't know if I would have done that, but I understand it was her only playing card.

Solitary confinement is truly on of the most awful tortures to put someone through. I can't imagine being in solitary confinement and being naked. That would push me over the edge for sure!

When Lilith finally meets her captors, she is shocked to find out that they are not human. It was difficult for me to picture what they looked like and why their appearance alone might drive someone insane.

This is an artist's rendering of an Oankali, and now I can totally understand the horror. LOL

An Oankali

That picture gave me goose bumps.

Lol That picture scared the hell out of me too. The thing is that the Oankali didn't see leaving her naked and in solitary confinement as torture. But I suppose the Oankali were only really interested in human beings because of what they could get from them and always put their interests above human's. What did you think about Jdahya offering to kill Lilith. Do you think she should have accepted it?

A.D. What did you think about Jdahya offering to kill Lilith. Do you think she should have accepted it?


No. There was no way for her to know the future, especially at that point.

A.D. wrote: "What did you think about Jdahya offering to kill Lilith. Do you think she should have accepted it?


No. I agree with Linda. I would have wanted to wait and see what was going to happen. Your question reminded me of this quote

“Life is dear to every living thing; the worm that crawls upon the ground will struggle for it.”
― Solomon Northup, Twelve Years a Slave

Even though she was terrified, she still wanted to live. I almost feel as if his offer was another test of her character. The Oankali did not do much of anything without advanced planning.

I hear what you guys are saying about her refusing it, but although she didn't know what the future held, she just knew she had no choice in it. And what Hattie said reminded me instantly of Colonisers. That was part of the propaganda they put out, that they were there to help when they were only there to get as much out of the country they colonised.

I knew that Octavia Butler was comparing the Oankali to either Slavers or Colonisers, but it was only when I read your comment that I saw their actions in restoring Earth in that way. Makind's fate didn't really have anything to do with the Oankali, but they intervened and only because they had something to gain.

Glad that you are enjoying this Hattie. I really loved it! I have read some of her other books and I haven't found one I disliked yet.

Hattie wrote: "If I were Jdayha, I would have touched him and died. That was her only chance to return home again. From now on she is theirs forever. They have conquered her. She is becoming one of them and not one of us.

Very interesting Hattie. Thinking more about it, I guess choosing to die would be comparable to the Africans who chose to jump into the shark filled ocean rather than be taken by 'aliens' to a place they didn't know.
-----------------------------

I am glad you brought up that comparison to colonizers AD. The colonizers' promises of 'true religion' and their idea of 'cultured civilization' do seem very similar to the Oankali's promises of health and peace.

I did notice how the Oankali kept saying that everything they were doing was for the benefit of the humans of earth. They are seemingly truthful, so they did admit it....

Jdahya said .... I can only say that your people have something we value. You may begin to know how much we value it when I tell you that by your way of measuring time, it has been several million years since we dared to interfere in another people's act of self destruction.

The Oankali need the humans, but they want the humans to believe that they also need the Oankali.
-----------

Let's start discussing Part II Family tomorrow.

Lilith starts her new life with the Oankali. She learns about them and their culture mostly through her child teacher, an ooloi named Nikanj.

Londa wrote: " did notice how the Oankali kept saying that everything they were doing was for the benefit of the humans of earth. "

Unfortunately this sounds suspiciously familiar in our day and age.

" She will only know how to cope in their world. It's very frightening.

If I were Jdayha, I would have touched him and died. That was her only chance to return home again. From now on she is theirs forever. They have conquered her. She is becoming one of them and not one of us."

Agree with what you said, Hattie, especially the last line.

And Londa, despite the fact that the Oankali saved humans from destruction, I think they definitely need humans more than humans need them. And what you said about Africans choosing to die rather than allow their suffering to continue helps me see that the Oankali are exactly like slavers and colonisers but their methods are very different as they are non-threatening but don't give Lilith a choice about anything.

Anastasia wrote: "Londa wrote: " did notice how the Oankali kept saying that everything they were doing was for the benefit of the humans of earth. "

Unfortunately this sounds suspiciously familiar in our day and age."

lol, Anastasia:-

It's more about the fact that they wanted her to learn their way. And is exactly like colonisers asserting their culture on the people they colonised. This can be seen a lot more later on in the novel.

Hattie wrote: "Londa: "The Oankali need the humans, but they want the humans to believe that they also need the Oankali."

Your sentence helps me understand their usage of the word "trade." I didn't really unders..."

I don't think it was me. I'm not sure who did.

Hattie wrote: "Okay, sorry."

Np :)

I just started this one, just finished Womb. This is quite an interesting read. Lilith is a survivor that's obvious. The description of Jdayha scared me. I don't think i'll be able to read this book at night...it's creepy.

I don't know about this gene trade thing either....it has to be more than what Jdayha is saying.

Lulu wrote: "I just started this one, just finished Womb. This is quite an interesting read. Lilith is a survivor that's obvious. The description of Jdayha scared me. I don't think i'll be able to read this boo..."

Everytime I read Jdayha's name my eye starts twitching. I rarely have such strong reactions to characters from books, but he/she really creeped me out lol

Sorry, it's not Jdayha that creeps me out. I meant Nkanj.

A.D. wrote: "Sorry, it's not Jdayha that creeps me out. I meant Nkanj."

I've just reached the part where Nkanj "opened" Lilith's mind and the way it's all snuggling up to her and being affectionate is creepy. LOL.

The name Lilith is a Hebrew baby name. In Hebrew the meaning of the name Lilith is: Night monster. Storm goddess. In Jewish folklore, Lilith was a female demon and first wife of Adam.

Lilith name meaning - SheKnows
www.sheknows.com/baby-names/name/lilith

Creepy doesn't even begin to describe it lol

I watched one of those Hidden Secrets of the Bible documentaries where they talked about Lilith. I'm trying to see if the name fits our Lilith or not...I can see some similarities.

They keep talking about Lilith's size...how big/tall is she?

I'm stuck on the "first wife of Adam" part, lol.

Anastasia, it is quite interesting. She rebelled and abandoned Adam...and that's when God created Eve.

Lulu wrote: "Anastasia, it is quite interesting. She rebelled and abandoned Adam...and that's when God created Eve."

I'll have to look that up, it does sound interesting.