Victorians! discussion

Nicholas arrives in London. Meanwhile, Newman Noggs goes to meet Miss La Creevy. His errand there is to apprise Miss Creevy with Kate’s situation and Nicholas’s arrival and to request her to keep Miss Nickleby with her once she is removed from her present employment. Miss Creevy then advises Noggs to break this news very slowly and carefully to Nicholas so that he will not act rashly out of rage. Newman agreeing to this, they plan to be out of their respective places till late night to avoid meeting Nicholas before that time. By informing Nicholas of Kate’s trouble at the late hour they plan to prevent Nicholas's chance of resorting to any immediate rash act. But chance brings Nicholas to the contact of Sir Mulberry and his group, and their conversation which refers to Kate draws Nicholas’s attention to the group. Through this conversation, Nicholas is able to fully understand why he was summoned by Noggs. He challenges Sir Mulberry and a violent skirmish follows in which Sir Mulberry is wounded and Nicholas bruised.

Nicholas removes Kate from the employment of Wititterlys. He then removes his mother too from her present aboard and both his sister and mother are settled with Miss Creevy for the present. He then sends Ralph a letter severing all ties with him.

Finally, poor Kate is relieved of her misery. And Sir Mulberry is being punished, her suffering is avenged.

We meet a couple of past characters. Mr. Mantalini comes to borrow some money from Ralph. From him, Ralph learns the true facts of the attack on Sir Mulberry. Ralph’s hatred of Nicholas is intensified with this new knowledge. Mr. Squeers makes an appearance at Ralph’s office and Ralph makes this an opportunity to revenge Nicholas in some way. Knowing Mr. Squeer's hatred toward Nicholas, Ralph makes him and an ally and concocts a plan on how to get even with Nicholas. Although nothing definitive is fixed, they seem to think of using Smike as the bait.

Meanwhile, Nicholas decides to go back to Registrar’s Office to look for another job opportunity. Outside the office, Nicholas meets an old gentleman with whom he falls into a conversation, during which the old gentleman learns of Nicholas’s past misfortunes. He takes Nicholas with him to his office. The old gentleman is one Mr. Charles Cheerbly, partner of Cheerbly Brothers. He and his twin brother and partner Ned (Edwin) decide to employ Nicholas in their counting-house. Into the bargain is thrown a cottage for the Nicklebys to live at a low rent. All four settle in their new aboard. This is a happy opportunity for Nicholas. At last, he could see to building a future for him and Kate.

At another quarter, we meet the Kenwigses. Nicholas was commissioned the distasteful task of informing the Kenwigses of his marriage to Miss Petowker by Mr. Lilyvick. Nicholas goes on to execute his commission when his own affairs were a little settled. The time was ill-chosen as he finds Mrs. Kenwig in confinement. The news broken was not taken well by Mr. Kenwigs. His anger is built into a violent rage and he curses the old man.

This was quite an interesting and eventful segment – the most enjoyable so far for me. Very happy to see Kate’s and Nicholas’s present troubles are somewhat abated and that they can be hopeful of a better future. Poor Smike too has something close to a home of his own which he never has had.

What did you think of this segment?

Piyangie wrote: "Nicholas arrives in London. Meanwhile, Newman Noggs goes to meet Miss La Creevy. His errand there is to apprise Miss Creevy with Kate’s situation and Nicholas’s arrival and to request her to keep M..."

I agree that this segment is much better reading than some of the others. Everyone is getting back on track, but will they stay there? A good way of making us read further.

The plot to keep Nicholas unaware of the attack on Kate is so soap opera- a feature of all sorts of melodramas until the advent of the mobile phone (cell for Americans?). Now we have to go through the silliness of people leaving their mobile uncharged - who knows anyone in real life who does that, and what is going to happen to that ploy now there are mobile chargers? Anyway, Dickens has none of these issues to spoil his plot. I like that Nicholas overhears the comments about Kate so that he acts on his own understanding of Kate's treatment, rather than a relayed story. This part of the story also adds to the iniquity of Kate's detractors.

Nicholas really does find it difficult to keep his hands to himself though, and this is a real problem. He never seems to learn. Poor Kate, selfish foolish mother, goodhearted but volatile brother.

The Kenswig's story is quite funny., and a lesson to people who foster an unpleasant person for personal gain. Overlooking a person's faults to the detriment of others, while expecting positive results for oneself is not peculiar to Dicken's time, alas.

Robin wrote: "Nicholas really does find it difficult to keep his hands to himself though, and this is a real problem. He never seems to learn. Poor Kate, selfish foolish mother, goodhearted but volatile brother..."

This is the first time I come across a Dickensian hero with such a violent temper. Nicholas, however, was led to act as he did, so he cannot be wholly blamed.

I too found the Kenwig episode quite entertaining. Poor Mr. Kenwigs! All his future expectations are thwarted. :)

Piyangie wrote: "Robin wrote: "Nicholas really does find it difficult to keep his hands to himself though, and this is a real problem. He never seems to learn. Poor Kate, selfish foolish mother, goodhearted but vol..."

I am interested in your observation about Nicholas as the first Dickens hero you have come across with such a violent temper, I am not as familiar with Dickensian heroes as you, so this will be something to think about when I read more of his work.

The Kenswig's dilemma was even more marked as Mrs K. was in labour when the dreadful news of their presumed to be benefactor's marriage was delivered! What a marvellous touch.

I will try to overlook the fact that Nicholas happened to drop into the very alehouse (out of the hundreds in London) that contained Sir Mulberry and his fellow plotters making licentious and disparaging remarks about Kate.
Nicholas’ violence came about because of the cowardice of Sir Mulberry refusing to tell him his name. Nicholas’ stubborn determination led to the skirmish and the injury to Sir Mulberry. Nicholas was relieved when he found out that Sir Mulberry’s life was not in danger but he was no doubt pleased that he had inflicted some sort of revenge for the cruel treatment of his sister.
My concern for Nicholas, even after his turn of good fortune is that he has now made powerful enemies and, with the return of Wackford Squeers, there could be a gang of three - Ralph, Wackford and Sir Mulberry - all scheming against him.
However, Nicholas’ chance meeting with Mr. Cheerbly has drawn him away from Ralph for the time being. Maybe the family will gain powerful allies themselves from this association.

Trev wrote: "I will try to overlook the fact that Nicholas happened to drop into the very alehouse (out of the hundreds in London) that contained Sir Mulberry and his fellow plotters making licentious and dispa..."

Yes, Nicholas has made powerful enemies, and it'll be interesting to see how they will carry out their revenge, and whether they'll succeed. But Nicklebys are no longer alone. They now have a powerful friendly force in the Cheerblys, in addition to the faithful Noggs and Miss Creevy.

Nicholas's going to the same hotel is too convenient, I agree. But I thought it was part of the drama Dickens was planning for the confrontation between Nicholas and Sir Mulberry.

I was all over the board with emotions during this section. Love/hate/excitement/incredulity/sadness...
My admiration for Noggs, just grows and grows, and Miss Creevy as well.

What a misfortune for Nicholas to wander upon that group. And almost the same scenario as Squeers. I was glad that Nicholas rounded up his family to take care of them. I agree "convenient", but also "convenient" to go back to the registers office and "happen" upon Cheerblys. Its a story though.

The mother is SO infuriating, but Nicholas and Kate (and everyone else) pretty much knows her personality by now, and what can you do but try to roll with it.

I thought this segment also was interesting as more of the past characters showed up. Pretty much none of it was for the good. I certainly hoped we'd seen the last of Squeers, but unfortunately not. I think Ralph had his number as maybe he was going to try and collect on Nicholas leaving and taking Smike.

Ralph inquiring about Smike and wanting to use him to get to Nicholas really hit me like a lead brick. I think of all the characters, he's probably been the most abused and I wish all the best for.

I do agree about the Kenwigs, it was sad, but almost amusing. Now I fully understand what Lilyvick meant when he ran into Nicholas previously.

I do agree about Nicholas temper, although the men really were rascals, and now he is rather the man of the family, they are attaching the reputation of the one family member he cherishes most... and I think Mulberry baited him. I wonder how much he did have to drink, the next morning it inferred about when waking up drunk, so maybe he was a little inebriated as well? I also wonder what will come, as others have mentioned these are powerful monied men. And a story has already been contrived by one of the four.

I almost forgot about Ralph considering his younger days when he was compared with his brother, how well liked his brother was and how he was considered good with money. Its interesting to see Ralph get nostalgic and thoughtful, but just as soon as he does, poof he nasty old Ralph again.

I do agree, the story is pulling together more and getting more exciting.

Brenda wrote: "I almost forgot about Ralph considering his younger days when he was compared with his brother, how well liked his brother was and how he was considered good with money. Its interesting to see Ralph get nostalgic and thoughtful..."

I've forgotten this too. Thank you for bringing it up. I felt there was a touch of envy for his brother. Ralph compares his brother with Nicholas and finds them similar. In the previous thread, Robin has raised the question of why Ralph hated Nicholas. It seems to be coming from his envious feelings of his brother.

I wonder if that may be it, we're seeing Ralph's envy? For the most part, all we've seen Ralph as is money hungry and disagreeable.

The scene where Ralph was imaging Kate in his house was interesting, although it came at the expense of not having Nicholas or the mother. Which was then kind of creepy in a way. Is it just the feminine touch of a niece he is looking for? Most everyone does seem to like Kate, and those that don't it is probably due to envy. So is it that the hard-hearted Ralph has been unexpectedly charmed by the innocent, genuine niceness of sweet Kate? I'm sure she is something he would not be used to in his circles. And we all know money does not buy happiness, maybe Ralph is seeing glimpses of a different world he never knew, or did not know for many years? Although also interesting, is that he was competitive with his brother, yet he sees his brother in Kate. Which if Ralph hates Nicholas, and if it is because of envy, you might think Nicholas more resembled his father?

There are a lot of different dynamics and underlying characteristics that are coming out, which is very intriguing, besides the "convenient coincidences," so I wonder if we'll get to the heart of it, or at least closer?

I see a difference in Ralph seeing his brother in his niece and nephew. In Kate, it is a mixture of guilt for using his beloved daughter in a degrading manner to attain his financial ends and pity for the forlorn girl. And Kate arouses in Ralph his brotherly feelings despite their characteristic differences. But in Nicholas, it is coupled with a strong dislike for the characteristics of his brother who represents what Ralph is not.

Brenda wrote: "I wonder if that may be it, we're seeing Ralph's envy? For the most part, all we've seen Ralph as is money hungry and disagreeable.

The scene where Ralph was imaging Kate in his house was interesting..."

I believe That Ralph has no redeeming characteristics at all. After all he now wants Kate as his own property having wished that both her brother and mother were dead. Whether he wants Kate as his wife or just his housekeeper we are not sure but both are despicable objectives after the degradation he has already put her through. Ralph probably thinks he would be doing her a good turn, like he did with Noggs. The letter from Nicholas roused his anger mainly because of the effect it would have on Kate rather than the accusations and denunciations of Nicholas.

There is certainly a lot going on in this section. I also felt that Nicholas certainly has a hot temper and it is lucky that he hasn't severely injured anyone so far.

i'm still wondering if there might be a significant softening of Ralph, but unfortunately this section doesn't make it look likely.

For some reason, the discussion of Ralph brought Ebeneezer Scrooge to mind. Lol

Could Dickens pull a Scrooge with Ralph...???

Piyangie wrote: "Brenda wrote: "I almost forgot about Ralph considering his younger days when he was compared with his brother, how well liked his brother was and how he was considered good with money. Its interest..."

Yes, I am glad that we are being some clues as to the past informing the present in relation to Ralph's hatred of Nicholas. Not money, but sibling rivalry. And, although his wife is a fool, the younger Nickleby has had a marriage and two children, unlike Ralph.

Brenda wrote: "For some reason, the discussion of Ralph brought Ebeneezer Scrooge to mind. Lol

Could Dickens pull a Scrooge with Ralph...???"

Lol. Yes, there is a resemblance in them. But I doubt whether the three Christmas ghosts could cure his wickedness and rapacity as it did for Scrooge. :)

I do agree with Robin. Ralph feels the loss of a family. And his brother poor though he was had what his money could not buy for him was something to be envious of. Ralph hopes to compensate for his loss with Kate and wish she could live with him. But if he had genuinely cared for the girl would he have exposed her as he did? His conduct up to present makes me agree with Trev that Ralph has no redeeming qualities.

Piyangie wrote: "I do agree with Robin. Ralph feels the loss of a family. And his brother poor though he was had what his money could not buy for him was something to be envious of. Ralph hopes to compensate for hi..."

I think that the family motif is interesting, and Dickens follows it up with Miss La Creevy's story. Although it is her brother who has the family, she is welcomed into it, permanently if she wishes. She enjoys her month with the family, and this compares with Ralph's sterile existance.

Trev has it right about the limits to Ralph's seeming change in attitude towards Kate. His sense of ownership is paramount, as is shown by his wish to have her without the accompanying (to Ralph) impediments of mother and brother.

I just have to remark on The Cheerbly Brothers. CHEERbly? and could they get any more ridiculously, cheerfully sweet? Oh Dickens. Your mean characters are so mean but your nice ones are really over the top!

The value of companionship through family ties is asserted again in this section. Nicholas, Kate and their mother are nesting comfortably together in the cottage provided for them by the Cheerbly brothers (at a reduced rate, but at a level to maintain their pride) while Ralph is pictured unhappy and alone.

Amanda wrote: "I just have to remark on The Cheerbly Brothers. CHEERbly? and could they get any more ridiculously, cheerfully sweet? Oh Dickens. Your mean characters are so mean but your nice ones are really over..."

How I agree! But the naming gives the reader so many clues as to how we should view the characters. We are not in for a terrible surprise about the Cheerbly Brothers - they will continue as they are named, cheerful and kindly. How different is this style of authorship - bad is bad and the names tell us so; good is good etc. in Dickens - from contemporary fiction. In the latter we are always being 'led up the garden path' , finding that we are wrong about a character etc.

I wonder if those who know Victorian literature better than I do could enlighten me. Are there any characters who are not what they seem?

In Austen, even if the characters are taken in, we, the readers know their true worth, or lack of it.

While we are still at names, I'm trying to piece what Squeers might imply. Could it be that he is queer? :)

Piyangie wrote: "While we are still at names, I'm trying to piece what Squeers might imply. Could it be that he is queer? :)"

Oh, lets hope not. Would Dickens be homophobic? Or do you mean as in strange? That wouldn't be dastardly enough, though.

I wonder if there is an Old English meaning that has gone out of use?

I looked up Free Dictionary and it referred to 'squeezer' . This could be right , as Squeers is squeezing money out of his clients, and giving little in return.

Robin wrote: "I looked up Free Dictionary and it referred to 'squeezer' . This could be right , as Squeers is squeezing money out of his clients, and giving little in return."

Ah, that makes sense, Robin. Thank you.