Japanese Literature discussion

This is our discussion thread for our October 2020 discussion of Out by Natsuo Kirino. Translated by Stephen Snyder. Originally published in July 15, 1997, the English-language translation was first released in 2005.

Out was the first of Kirino's more than 40 novels to be translated into English. It won Japan’s Grand Prix for Crime Fiction and was an Edgar Award Finalist for Best Mystery Novel in 2004 (US). It also was nominated for the Naoki Prize 直木三十五賞 (1997).



In the course of spending 30 minutes of online research, I found a readers' guid at the Penguin site that described Out as "a daring and disturbing psychological thriller set in contemporary Japan," and "an audacious look at lives marginalized by society and the desperation that drives ordinary people to commit acts of unthinkable violence,", both typical descriptions of it in my experience. When readers encounter a novel in 2020 which was first published in 1997 and likely written at least a year earlier, are we stretching the boundaries of "contemporary Japan" beyond recognition? Putting COVID aside, the Japanese economy is in a different cycle than it was in the late 1990s. Is it "fair" to Japan for Western readers to reach conclusions about the treatment and role of women and other marginalized groups in Japanese society today based on a bestseller that is now 23 years old? Just wondering.

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/bo...

If you've read Out before or are reading it for the first time, share your thoughts on anything that strikes you.

A 2003 Japan Times interview with the author includes the following initial question and response.

"Why did you choose the English word “Out” for the original Japanese title of your novel?

The idea of “Out” for the title sort of popped into my head before I wrote the novel. In Japan, the word “out” conveys the sense of hakkiri dame (totally worthless). In the book, all the nuances would seem to apply — to depart, to go astray and to make an exit. By contrast, I couldn’t come up with a word in Japanese that conveyed the same feelings, so I came to the conclusion that “Out” was the only word that would fit.

The theme of my novel also suggests that one can become free (to get out) by deviating from what’s considered the accepted path, as if another door opens, so to speak..."

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/...

Thanks for opening the thread Carol! I read Out maybe 13 years ago so looking forward to a reread in October.

I read out sometime between 2008 and 2010, and started rereading it on Sunday.

I'm curious to see what people find in the book which is no longer applicable to Japan today. Our main female characters are in poorly paid jobs, struggling with poverty, overwork, and domestic violence. That still holds for people today in any country. The male lead is making good money from clubs, which do not go out of style.

I am at page 160. It reads very easily, as expected for the genre. The continuous changes of perspective from the different characters make it very dynamic and fun, and as a reader you get interested in all the story lines of each character, not only the crime, so that's fun to read. Although the lives of the characters are not much fun, for sure. It's well done. I am impatient for the author to return to the perspective of each of the characters, wondering how each of them carry on !

It is well crafted, but so far I haven't discovered yet why this book would have won the prices Carol listed. I guess that is because there will be some surprising dramatic turns I don't see coming at this point.

So far there is nothing that would suggest the novel has become outdated. As Bill said the situations of poverty, bad lodging, debts, domestic violence, etc (--- including teenagers who drink directly from the bottle, covid or no covid, drives me crazy...) can be found today same as few decades ago, so I would say it does not make a lot of difference.

I am half way thru and... I am bored. :(
Is anybody else reading or have you read it and do you have any motivational phrase to keep me going ? Is it going to be worth it ?

The most boring for me is the Satake / Anna story line.... I can't manage to feel any interest about what they will be doing..

It is 520 pages, that's a whole lot of pages , and I have the feeling the first 150 contained all the story to be shared ... Or is this going to pick up at some point ?

(view spoiler)[
As for our female protagonists, I have the feeling they will just be found out and go to prison, their family members will be surprised of what happened and that will be it. Probably the cat Milk will be the determining detail.
(hide spoiler)]

Agnetta wrote: "I am half way thru and... I am bored. :(
Is anybody else reading or have you read it and do you have any motivational phrase to keep me going ? Is it going to be worth it ?

The most boring for me..."

I abandoned it around page 100 a couple of years ago. I was completely surprised at how boring it was and how and unengaged I was. I had anticipated it would be in my sweet spot and an effortless read. I didn’t hate it, but one evening I realized I hadn’t picked it up in a week, didn’t miss any of the characters, and didn’t care what happened. I’m in the minority based on its presence on every danger must-read list that exists, but ...

If we get that motivational pitch, I’m open to it. :)

I read this exactly eight years ago so I'm afraid I don't remember much now. I don't recall finding it slow, and I gave it four stars in the end.

P.S. The book linked above is apparently only part one, so you might want to edit it to the full edition.

Scott wrote: "I read this exactly eight years ago so I'm afraid I don't remember much now. I don't recall finding it slow, and I gave it four stars in the end.

P.S. The book linked above is apparently only part..."

Sure, Scott. Thanks!

I also read Out almost 10 years ago, it was one of the very first Japanese novels I read. Like Scott, I don't remember it being boring at all, but I don't know how I would feel about it if I had read other similar novels beforehand. Because it's more concerned with the characters' psychology and the circumstances around the crime, I had never read anything like it before back then so I was completely enthralled. But then again I was only 18 so my literary tastes were not really that refined :)

Agnetta and Carol, I would definitely encourage you to finish it, just so you can have a full picture of what it is about. Though, if you need a pitch to be convinced to keep reading, then maybe the book just isn't for you. I don't really remember at what point and if any big twists happen, though, so I can't really be much help!

I read it last year, and have forgotten most of it, but I definitely wasn't bored by it. I remember being in a hotel on a work trip so I didn't have much else going for me at the time. Haha.

However, I'm a big advocate for dropping a book if you're not enjoying it - maybe it's just not the right time or not the book for you. But Out is a hefty beast and if you're bored by it I say leave it. Too much to read, too little time.

I have to concur with Jeshika. If you aren't enjoying it, drop it. It isn't going to suddenly change into something you enjoy.

Not every book is for everyone, and there are too many other books to read to waste your time continuing one you don't like.

I had a similar feeling with Naoko , but the last 30 pages just blew me away and from then on I would never drop a Keigo Higahino book, and I am an unconditional of his crime books now.

So I am just afraid this book might be the same, that all of sudden a brilliant turn will make me understand why it is so great, and i gave up too soon. Then again, it may not.

Maybe I just read too many great books at this stage of my life :) . Maybe too much Higashino to appreciate this one...

I feel like chiming in that I also read this a long time ago (about 15 years ago), remember it as being engaging and I wasn't bored by it at all. But I hadn't (and still don't) read a lot of thriller. I wonder whether it's the kind of book that doesn't age well, and just can't compete with the pace of books nowadays?

It was really the characters for me. I was uninterested in any of their lives or difficulties. She didn’t draw me in. It wasn’t that I require more action or events. If I were on a long flight and it as available I wouldn’t be averse to giving it another shot, which was know isn’t a raging endorsement. lol

Bill, that’s generally my view. So many books I’m excited to read.

After some reflection, I think the novel must have attracted the attention due to the special circumstances of the 4 female characters. They all came down to quite difficult circumstances, all for different reasons. For the readers, it must be a shocking reminder that if you make few wrong decisions in life, sequentially, you can get into a downward spiral and there is not always a safety net. Also in the forums the novel is praised to bring this out, the hardness of society, the critique of how women can be unjustly treated etc,

I think of Masako going down due to her resistance to unjustice in the company she works for , or Kumiko, who focuses completely on superficial indications of welfare (accessories, clothes, cheap style) while she cant focus on the essence of educating herself to really get a better job, etc. These themes seemed interesting for me. I would be interested in knowing how these women could have avoided the downward spiral or how they could get out ...

The trouble is, that interesting part covers a very small part of the content, the author only gives us a glimpse of how the dreadful present came to be, apparently without hope of getting better,.,.

From there , we go to a lot of focus on the chopping up of limbs and all that ... I don-t find it all very interesting.

So , I will move on to other readings for now.

I am rather sorry I voted for this. I liked it at the time, but it isn't deep enough for me to get anything out of re-reading it. So I'm going to stop as well and give the book away.

Hmm. It was alright but it missed a lot of opportunities to be great. It definitely started out slow and I felt the pace picked up almost too much by the end– the potential really was there, but the thriller took over the social commentary at that point.
A smaller grievance: I'm tired of a character's weight being used as some outward indication of their morality or character. It's old, it's tired, it's lazy at best and hateful at worst. The mention of overeating as a result of job-related stress and other factors could've been fine had the writing gone deeper into it, but it didn't.
A larger grievance: the ending. What did you all make of it? (view spoiler)[I didn't like it when I read it. While there were parallels between the two, sure, the final message of "we're the same" didn't fit for me at all and just threw any feminist theme out the window. If I had to justify it to myself, I'd try to believe that everything she said after injuring him was just part of the performance, a cold calculation to get her out of there. (hide spoiler)] Eh. So many pages spent on characterization with so little payoff.

I started with it today and find it an easy read till now

I'm slightly over halfway and recognize that it is quite a slow read. I must say I imagined this would read faster for something billed as a thriller.

I just finished my first reading of Out, and I was blown away. The subject matter is never something I would choose to read, but the execution was impressive to me. Kirino has a real knack for telling a story from multiple perspectives, delving into the psychology of her characters in order to bring them to life on the page. I never felt bored because I appreciated this thorough exploration. It seemed that I was reading about real people, imperfect people, which helped me to understand why they would do the things they did (previously unfathomable things!). I did not enjoy the last 30 or so pages, but overall, I surprised myself by how much I loved this book, which is really saying something because if I knew what it was about before opening it, I probably never would have read it. I’m so happy I did.

Finished it yesterday and dropped my 17 year’s old 4 stars to 2. I appreciate how Natsuo Kirino pulls you in the hopeless narratives of the women at the heart of the book, but the story is just to long spung out in my opinion. As a social commentary it kind of works, as a thriller much less so. And I really disliked the ending, which doens’t do Masako any favours, while she was really quite a badass character for almost all of the book.

Henk wrote: "Finished it yesterday and dropped my 17 year’s old 4 stars to 2. I appreciate how Natsuo Kirino pulls you in the hopeless narratives of the women at the heart of the book, but the story is just to ..."

I'm surprised you thought the ending didn't do Masako any favors. I believe she chooses the only way she could ever get "out"--out of a lackluster marriage, out of an economy that limits her options, out of Japan, out of a life she doesn't want to live.

I just found the ending (view spoiler)[with two times the rape scene and Masako kind of out of the blue falling in love or something with her torturer and rapist, after she first hates him, and that she just then takes the 50 million as a compensation (hide spoiler)] over the top and quite nasty.

Henk wrote: "I just found the ending [spoilers removed] over the top and quite nasty."

Oh! I thought you meant the conclusion, not the climax. Yes, it was nasty. Very difficult to read.

Bill wrote: "I'm curious to see what people find in the book which is no longer applicable to Japan today."

Going back to this question, did anybody find anything that suggested a time difference? I thought it could very easily be set last year - except maybe the references to phoning people at home.

Overall the ending really ruined the whole book for me I think. Masako was such a strange character and I was just about getting along with her until the end.

OK, I’m done with the book. I was curious of “Out“, especially since the new edition has been published in the same series as “The Makioka Sistes”, but in the end I found the text rather pedestrian and simplistic...

I was wondering, is this new re-issue Aleksandra mentioned also a re-translation?