Dresden Files discussion

Spoiler Zone! Use all the spoilers you want in this thread!

Yikes. I knew this one would be intense, but I wasn't prepared for *this* intense.

On the unimportant side, we did get confirmation on who Mac is/was. We also got clarification about how Demon Reach and Mab possessed statues in the cemetery during Ghost Story to interact with Harry... there had been some discussion as to who they actually had been.

And, well damn, we learned that fallen heroes don't return until no one is left alive who remembers them. Damn, damn, damn.

I have to thank this group for preparing me for Justine, otherwise I'd have spent too much time in denial and would have missed the rest of the book.

And now we have a year in Harry's life before we see if he really fulfills Mab's promise to fully ally with the White Court vampires.

Holy matrimonial machinations Batman! What can Mab be thinking?! She said in one breath that she expects to be doing the defiance dance until 'the end of time' and yet she wants him to marry a White Court Vamp? I mean, I know Harry considered Lara as a form of suicide but c'mon!

The losses were somewhat different than I expected, except for Murphy. I got my Thesis/Hippolyta moment when Harry carried her back to the Bean but not the retribution Rudolph so richly deserved. I hope we get to see that weasel get some payback, even if it's only in a parallel universe. ;-)

About Mab's 'end of time' assertion... doesn't that imply that Harry is now immortal? I didn't think that was part of the Winter Knight Mantle, just the reality if the new Knight chose his fae side over human.

And I'm wondering if the political marriage between Winter and the White Court actually requires that the marriage be consummated?

I finally have a new favorite quote from the Dresden files

"When horrors begin to tear apart the people of this City" Mab said calmly "when its women and children cry out for help, i should find it amusement in seeing you attempt to restrain him"

If i had to edit this book i would have put only those words on the back of the book. It's the most perfect of summing up Harry i have ever read, including putting him down 3 sentences later.

This book was intense, but i was prepared to see an even larger death toll. Not that the losses were not terrible, but some where just put in for shock value McCoy, the Carpenters.

It also seems that either Mab is foreshadowing her end, or she has an uncanny way of making sure Harry protects her really well. But then again killing another winter lady, three times is the charm as they say.

I was seriously ready to put down the book down yesterday evening at a civilized time, just to read Murphy getting shot into the chest by Rudolph, and naturally i was not putting the book down.

There is also a thing that i find disconcerting, Harry soul gazes with a kraken, since when do monsters have souls? And even more surprising that soulgaze scares the kraken. I can see the point the white council is making.

I found the Marcone twist a bit disappointing, it diminishes the character, the plain vanilla mortal was way more badass. But it makes of course sense how he was always operating, and it is going to make the final confrontation between him and Dresden much more epic.

Caryl wrote: "Holy matrimonial machinations Batman! What can Mab be thinking?! She said in one breath that she expects to be doing the defiance dance until 'the end of time' and yet she wants him to marry a Whit..."

I think that is Mab's romantic streak as Mother Winter calls it. Defiance is at the core of Harry's being, and its not going to ever cease. But i don't think Harry is immortal, but then again Ebenezar McCoy was outed in this book of having had birthdays in four centuries. That is a long time for a wizard to be defiant.

Who are the most prominent completely non-supernatural characters left, without Karrin, Marcone, or Justine?

Christian wrote: "This book was intense, but i was prepared to see an even larger death toll. Not that the losses were not terrible, but some where just put in for shock value McCoy, the Carpenters."

Did McCoy die? I thought they said he and Listens to Wind were in surgery at the end.

And the scene with the Carpenters was legitimate, not just shock value. OK, Ethniu did it to shock Harry, but she believed it was real and wanted to gut Harry to prevent him from binding her. This is the only way I ever want to see harm come to the Carpenters. And I loved how Harry figured out it was an illusion set up by Molly because Mouse wasn't there, and then later how he used an image of Maggie and Mouse with him to keep his identity whole.

I also loved how that earlier Harry's former neighbor didn't recognize him, but remembered Mouse. If Harry ever needs a little humility, scenes like that will do it. :)

@jeanie
No McCoy didn’t die, but from the way he went down in battle he has no real right to be still alive. But that one and the carpenters scene were written as jump scares, admittedly the carpenters had purpose for the story but after Murphy’s death everybody seemed to be fair game.

So the only characters that are gone Murphy and Hendricks plus thousands of red shirts.

I noticed at the end Harry put photos into the "mass grave" of the three wardens taken out by the Black Court vampires. Is this Butcher's signal that they are dead, or merely Harry acknowledging that, whoever they were before, those people are essentially dead?

I think for intents and purpose wild bill meyers and yoshimo are dead, even if they might show up as vampires again. With “steed” Chandler I still hope he might come back, but at the moment he is MIA.

As positive point, I felt that they finally got rid of Harry’s open grave, and that in a very dignified manner.

Christian wrote: "Caryl wrote: "Holy matrimonial machinations Batman! What can Mab be thinking?! She said in one breath that she expects to be doing the defiance dance until 'the end of time' and yet she wants him t..."

Jeanie wrote: "About Mab's 'end of time' assertion... doesn't that imply that Harry is now immortal? I didn't think that was part of the Winter Knight Mantle, just the reality if the new Knight chose his fae side..."

Jason wrote: "Who are the most prominent completely non-supernatural characters left, without Karrin, Marcone, or Justine?"

I agree 'the end of time' phrase was an exaggeration for effect in her discussion with Harry. He's not immortal. But wizards are very long lived. Maybe she just meant it would feel that long because of Harry's personality.

Jason wrote: "Who are the most prominent completely non-supernatural characters left, without Karrin, Marcone, or Justine?"

The Alphas aren't truly supernatural but since they do a type of magic, I'll leave them off the list.

Charity isn't supernatural in any way. Michael is no longer supernatural. He just held a sort of supernatural job based on a faith based power source. Father Forthill is completely human, but probably doesn't qualify as a prominent character.

Wow, Harry needs some new vanilla mortals in his life. He's being isolated from wizards by the White Council. He's losing vanilla allies by attrition. Good thing he's a bit of hermit.

Christian wrote: "@jeanie
No McCoy didn’t die, but from the way he went down in battle he has no real right to be still alive. But that one and the carpenters scene were written as jump scares, admittedly the carpen..."
Thomas is still gone as is Justine. They're just not completely dead.
3 of the wardens Harry worked with and taught younger wardens with are gone and we KNOW that 2 of them are dead because a) Harry saw their dead bodies and b) the Black Court vamps took their bodies for a purpose, to turn them. It was clearly stated that that was the purpose of drawing them to the graveyard in the first place.

Christian wrote: "I think for intents and purpose wild bill meyers and yoshimo are dead, even if they might show up as vampires again. With “steed” Chandler I still hope he might come back, but at the moment he is M..."
My tin foil hat theory is that Chandler was sent to the parallel universe and Harry's reason for going there is going to be to get him out. Now that is probably going to be orchestrated by the evil Harry rather than our Harry figuring it out on his own.

Myers and Yukie hit me hard. I might be the only one to read The Dresden graphic novel war cry. Both them and Rameriz are awesome in that.
Their hatred for Vampires. Now they'll be extremely dangerous ones. I'm assuming they're talent is even greater than Mavra. I hope Rameriez and Dresden can find a way to team up to put them down. I thought they were underutilized.

Caryl, i just would love for chandler to team up with a kick ass woman the parallel universe. Let's just call her Emma.

Charity used to be a wizard. She gave it up when Michael rescued her, and that make it go way down, but not "supernatural in any way" is a bit higher than I would pitch it.

Christian wrote: "Caryl, i just would love for chandler to team up with a kick ass woman the parallel universe. Let's just call her Emma."
Ah yes, Mrs. Peel would be perfect. -You do realize we're aging ourselves?- But of course, if Chandler meets Mrs. Peel, he may never come back to this universe and Harry will be another ally down.

Mary wrote: "Charity used to be a wizard. She gave it up when Michael rescued her, and that make it go way down, but not "supernatural in any way" is a bit higher than I would pitch it."

How about 'no longer supernatural'? Now she's as vanilla as they come but with Knowledge. Because if she's not on the list that only leaves his former friends from SI and the only one left on the force that is a named character is Stallings.

Tee hee, Rawlins and his Lethal Weapon reference. Sneaky Mr. Butcher, sneaky.

Caryl I think I’m aging myself by using a picture of me. You just showed impeccable taste by recognizing what I alluded to.

Christian wrote: "Caryl I think I’m aging myself by using a picture of me. You just showed impeccable taste by recognizing what I alluded to."
Thank you. Mrs. Peel was my favorite of Steed's partners. Did you ever see the episode where she parted ways with Steed? That was a classic.

So who wants to lay bets on how much actually gets swept under the rug a la government cover up after that whole mess? I mean, we saw in the end of the book how Marcone thinks it's all going to shake out, but I have to think that if the authorities are putting up a "psychological wall" around Chicago, there are going to be some people inside that wall that respond by looking closer for answers and actually drifting closer to the existing magical community.

And at least some of those people are going to find Chicago's supernatural good guys. Dresden and Butters and the Alphas and St. Mary's and Mac's are all a lot more accessible for someone looking for answers than Marcone, and maybe you start to see a much stronger subculture of mortals in the know.

What about the police and EMTs and the like? Because there's that whole thing with the cops being out for Dresden before the blackout, but then Murphy sounded the alarm right before things went to hell exactly like she said they would. They saw a lot of things that they might of credited as crazy. And yeah, some might react like Rudolph, but there will be others that put things together and go, "This can't happen again. We need a better way to meet this threat. Who do we know who can give us that?"

And if THEY go looking for answers, where are they going to go? Dresden, more than likely. Maybe they get pointed to Mac's.

It could make for a much more interesting backdrop for the coming books and the larger conflicts that have been teased.

Ugh. That was brutal. Be back in a few days.

Caryl wrote: "Holy matrimonial machinations Batman! What can Mab be thinking?! She said in one breath that she expects to be doing the defiance dance until 'the end of time' and yet she wants him to marry a Whit..."
Gotta say I saw Lara flirting with Dresden in the older books but I always figured it would be Molly or Murphy. On the other hand Molly was a bit surprised, so he is definitely dating Lara for the next book but in the end infinity with Mab and Molly is a long time and did you catch that looks like Dresden has a greater mantle than just a common Winter Knight or maybe he can power it to the higher level where he can go toe to toe with Mab and Oden. (plus he can draw on the power of a Titan, so yeah. He just moved up to the level of Mab but hasn't realized it yet.)

Another thought. The Angels let Molly cross into her parents house, so while she might think she is an evil sexy fairy, she is probably an old testament Power or Principality, which in the Dresden verse probably just means she is in charge of winter type things under God eg death and renewal.

Begun rereading with the print book. I've found that listening to the audiobook is a much more different experience then I realized. When I read the print Peace Talks, there were passages I barely remembered. I think I'll be able to comment as I go.

But I want to thank whoever here mentioned the possibility of this being the book where *spoiler* (I know this is a spoiler zone, but just in case) we lose Murphy. I thought it would be a few more books away. I'll probably create a new thread for that. I have too much to say. But knowing it was coming made that scene marginally easier to handle.

Monica wrote: "Begun rereading with the print book. I've found that listening to the audiobook is a much more different experience then I realized. When I read the print Peace Talks, there were passages I barely ..."

I always find that reading followed by re-reading produces that phenomenon. The first time through I'm concentrating on the story. The second time through I can focus on the details--including foreshadowing, clues, revelations about previously obscured points, small details, etc.--that I either ignored or simply went over my head the first time through.

You can also catch the significance of things that seemed insignificant.

I've only read Battle Ground once so far, but did anyone else notice a scene where Harry was looking at McCoy holding the black staff and he saw an image of a hunched old woman reminiscent of a traditional Halloween witch? If so, this might confirm the speculation that his staff is Mother Winter's walking stick. If not, then I plead PTSD from BG itself and that was merely a hallucination of my own brought about by the trauma of Murphy's death.

I thought the black staff being winter mother's was already confirmed. it would seem ebenezer is able to pull out dark magic and if he's holding the black staff he takes zero backlash for it corrupting him. I'm assuming he over used it and her shadow showed up.

Darkcain11 wrote: "I thought the black staff being winter mother's was already confirmed. it would seem ebenezer is able to pull out dark magic and if he's holding the black staff he takes zero backlash for it corrup..."
There was a lot of fan speculation and hint dropping that the Blackstaff was Mother Winter's cane but it wasn't confirmed until BG.

Caryl wrote: "Darkcain11 wrote: "I thought the black staff being winter mother's was already confirmed. it would seem ebenezer is able to pull out dark magic and if he's holding the black staff he takes zero bac..."

Wait, is it actually CONFIRMED that the blackstaff is Mother Winter's cane? Where? Apparently I missed that reference, because I keep considering as just speculation.

Depends on your level of 'confirmed'. Mother Winter's shadow appeared above him during the Battle of the Bean as Eben was wielding the 'Blackstaff'.

Caryl wrote: "Depends on your level of 'confirmed'. Mother Winter's shadow appeared above him during the Battle of the Bean as Eben was wielding the 'Blackstaff'."
I just reread that particular scene, it's true that the reshaping of the shadow until "it looked like a hideously twisted old woman, complete with the classic nose and chin, looking somehow darkly amused."
While that seems to be an accurate description of mother Winter it's not necessarily a proof.
The only other mention is in Cold Days that Mother Winter lost her walking stick.

I think i prefer this to be just hinted at than outright confirmed.

Yeah, I also went to re read the scene, I am not convinced it is "confirmed". Hinted, sure. But in the Dresden world, I think there may be several "hideously twisted old women".

Was anyone else surprised by the involvements of the "normals," as Harry calls them? One thing I never expected was a wholesale involvement of the Chicago citizenry in a battle. Things can't go back to normal for Chicago after this book. How do you think they'll deal?

i felt like he rolled it back at the end of BG with non-Chicagoans being fed non supernatural explanations. Rudolph shows that even repeated exposure won't convince some people. So it's wider, but not likely large enough to substantially change the weave of the world going forward.

I think the use of the normals, go back to Butchers repeated use of the phrase that tor he’s and pitchforks are still a scary proposition in the hands of an angry mob. So battleground just reinforces the picture that the non magical world could pose a serious threat to even the monsters and spell slingers of this world.
The mortal authorities have been likened to the nuclear option if the supernatural world.

Wow, that was intense. Murphy shocked me, as did the Justine twist. What if Harry doesn't find her before she give birth? I love the Lara surprise...Butcher's going to have fun with that one.

Would an Outsider CARE about Thomas' child, except as a tool to bait Dresden? Would the mother love allow Justine to pull free of the Outsider influence, at least enough to get her child to some sort of safety? Don't forget, Justine's character was not mentally stable before contact with Thomas or the Outsiders presence.

Would the child, conceived while under Outsider influence, Be and Outsider or at least remain permanently under Outsider influence? Could Fidelacchious be the cure for what ails Justine, the child, Thomas?

All I have on that front is question after question after question.

Caryl wrote: "Would an Outsider CARE about Thomas' child, except as a tool to bait Dresden? Would the mother love allow Justine to pull free of the Outsider influence, at least enough to get her child to some so..."

I had that thought too. Would the kid be born under Outsider influence? In essence, a sleeper agent from birth?

Oooh, hadn't thought about that at all. It would be too easy to just let the baby be born, healthy and normal, would it? Yeah, I think you guys are on to something. Jim would never allow that much happiness. I mean, we JUST got Harry and Murphy together, dammit. So clearly, happiness is not allowed. (yes, still sulking)

I feel like when they track down Justine (or prior to Harry making an attempt to), we may get the most words ever out of Mac as he seems an, if reluctant, excellent wealth of knowledge for Harry to tap on Outsiders.

Ben Fiore wrote: "I feel like when they track down Justine (or prior to Harry making an attempt to), we may get the most words ever out of Mac as he seems an, if reluctant, excellent wealth of knowledge for Harry to..."

At this point I don't care WHO tells Dresden what being Starborn is all about, just so someone does! Listens To Wind may make that his wedding present when/if Dresden actually marries Lara Raith since the White Council certainly won't be offering any info willingly. Especially if Langtry had a hand in manipulating for or against Harry's birth in the first place or if Any member of the council had plans for Dresden that they tried to manipulate without his knowledge and permission.

Harry doesn't like being a cat's paw. He even let Mab know that.

There's even a frightening possibility that whoever encouraged Maggie to arrange the time of Harry's birth to create a Starborn may be Black Council. If Langtry was in on that and then Harry escaped Justin's control and therefore HIS control, that would be a powerful reason for his active dislike of Dresden. If you'd created a powerful tool and then lost the ability to control it, you might be trying to destroy it too.