Science and Inquiry discussion

For November 2020, we will be reading The Disordered Mind: What Unusual Brains Tell Us about Ourselves. Please use this thread to post questions, comments, and reviews, at any time.

This nonfiction book doesn't have a lot of ratings so I was somewhat surprised to see that both the city and county library systems here have copies, and I look forward to reading it.
A couple years ago I read The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat and Other Clinical Tales by Oliver Sacks and enjoyed that; this seems to be in the same area.

just started this. so far I like it.

I've read about a quarter so far and am finding quite a bit of interest in it. This part on autism has information I had never heard before.

It may take me about 2 more weeks to finish because I'm reading several other books, including Deadliest Enemy: Our War Against Killer Germs by Michael T. Osterholm and In the Shadow of Man by Jane Goodall.
This is the first time I've ever read three nonfiction books at once, perhaps this group has helped inspire me.

Just finished the book. I found it a good primer on the biology of the brain and brain disorders, with some new information on Alzheimer's that I hadn't heard before. There was a chapter on consciousness that I wish was more extensive. Unlike people like Harris who declares there is no free will, he suggests that unconscious thoughts can be intercepted by consciousness to "approve or veto the action". Given the number of decisions we make in a day, I wonder how often this happens?

I'm about halfway through the audiobook while waiting for a hard copy from the library. I'm finding it very interesting.

At the midpoint, around ch6 or so, Kandel mentioned the left hemisphere logic and right hemisphere creativity divide. I can't remember where (maybe from The Body: A Guide for Occupants?), but I thought that the neuroscience indicates that there is no clear cut division - ie. the two hemispheres are actually more integrated than described in this paradigm. Does anybody else recall recent discussions about this delegation of logic and creativity?

Woman Reading wrote: "I'm about halfway through the audiobook while waiting for a hard copy from the library. I'm finding it very interesting.

At the midpoint, around ch6 or so, Kandel mentioned the left hemisphere lo..."

I can't cite any sources but it's known that if in a young child one brain hemisphere is damaged or for some reason fails to develop, the other hemiphere can function quite well for all the tasks needed of the full brain. This plasticity is no longer present in the adult brain however. This argues against a clear- cut division of function.

Woman Reading wrote: "I'm about halfway through the audiobook while waiting for a hard copy from the library. I'm finding it very interesting.

At the midpoint, around ch6 or so, Kandel mentioned the left hemisphere lo..."

I just finished The Tale of the Dueling Neurosurgeons: The History of the Human Brain as Revealed by True Stories of Trauma, Madness, and Recovery
This was fascinating. He talks about the hemispheres and the divisions and connections between the right and left. Examples of people who have had their corpus callosums severed to reduce seizures. Apparently without this connection each hemisphere has a mind of its own, although in many cases it's not noticeable, in some cases the left and right hands actually fight each other. Incredibly frustrating!
Kean points to evidence against localization in many mental functions, although studying people with brain damage, the resulting deficits have helped scientists locate certain areas of the brain responsibly for certain things (speech, memory etc.) It is amazing though that, in spite of the damage, people do manage to function surprisingly well even missing great hunks of brain.
As George noted, if the damage happens early in life, one hemisphere can function pretty well as a whole brain. I know a guy who got in a car accident in his 20s. When they xrayed his brain they found only half a brain! The guy is no rocket scientist, but geez, he drives, holds a job, etc. No one ever knew.

George P. wrote: "if in a young child one brain hemisphere is damaged or for some reason fails to develop, the other hemiphere can function quite well for all the tasks needed of the full brain. This plasticity is no longer present in the adult brain however. This argues against a clear- cut division of function."

Hmm, talk about getting set in one's ways with aging.

Nancy wrote: "I just finished The Tale of the Dueling Neurosurgeons: The History of the Human Brain as Revealed by True Stories of Trauma, Madness, and Recovery
This was fascinating. He talks about the hemispheres and the divisions and connections between the right and left. Examples of people who have had their corpus callosums severed to reduce seizures. ..."

How interesting! It seems as though neuroscience still has a lot to discover.

it does! The brain must be incredibly complicated. I know it's endlessly fascinating, I can't get enough of books on brains, minds and behavior.

What did you think about his great interest in art and creativity? I enjoyed those parts and thought them good illustrations of what is and isn't impaired with different afflictions.
(I still have about 1/4 of the book left to read).

Nancy wrote: "it does! The brain must be incredibly complicated. I know it's endlessly fascinating, I can't get enough of books on brains, minds and behavior."

Nancy, what other titles on this topic would you recommend?

George P. wrote: "What did you think about his great interest in art and creativity? I enjoyed those parts and thought them good illustrations of what is and isn't impaired with different afflictions.
(I still have ..."

I've finished listening to the audiobook, but I'm still waiting for a physical copy from my library. In other words, my retention isn't perfect if new info comes solely through lectures. OK, that's my disclaimer 😉 Overall, I really like this book.

As to your question, George, my takeaway thought on this chapter was about the need for a release from inhibitions in order to have creativity flourish. And yet, even those who are really logical wouldn't necessarily see an increase in their creativity were they to become less inhibited (probably with some alcohol).

I'm an avid museum visitor (present pandemic excepted). I saw Van Gogh's "Bedroom at Arles" in person and actually thought that he had been depressed when he had painted it. It was there in the angles & perspectives of the room; it felt like the room was closing in upon the occupant. I had seen this painting in books before, but I had never been struck before by such a strong impression of this painter's mood.

My field of undergraduate study emphasized the assumption of human rationality. (My old field has since slightly evolved from that position.) That plus a fondness for Spock led to a belief that emotions could be suppressed during the decision-making process in favor of a rational approach.

So, my takeaway from ch 8 is how this is not a good assumption. Kandel included two persons with injuries / damage to their prefrontal cortex areas. Both had personality changes because their decision making process had radically changed. The attending doctors concluded that some part of the brain dealing with emotions had been affected. Kandel described the prefrontal cortex " which evaluates whether a particular emotional response is appropriate to the situation at hand."

What has surprised you or what will be your takeaway thought from this book?

Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior

Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst

Unthinkable: What the World's Most Extraordinary Brains Can Teach Us About Our Own

How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence

Into the Gray Zone: A Neuroscientist Explores the Border Between Life and Death

Gosh I am going on and on ... last but certainly not least ANYTHING by Oliver Sacks such as The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat and Other Clinical Tales. and An Anthropologist on Mars: Seven Paradoxical Tales

George P. wrote: "What did you think about his great interest in art and creativity? I enjoyed those parts and thought them good illustrations of what is and isn't impaired with different afflictions.
(I still have ..."
I also really liked the part about art. I think it was the callous treatment of animal experiments that turned me off on the book somewhat as it was a very interesting book.

Nancy wrote: "Subliminal: How Your Unconscious Mind Rules Your Behavior

Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst

[book:Unthinkable: What the World's Most Extraordinar..."

Thanks for sharing, Nancy. I've added some to my TBR.

Nancy wrote: "I think it was the callous treatment of animal experiments that turned me off on the book somewhat as it was a very interesting book."

I've taken some psychology courses in university. As academic disciplines have tried to appear more scientifically rigorous, it also meant the rise of animal testing. How else could psychology tests be replicated by other researchers? Humans could lead to too variable results or some other tests would be unethical if done with people. Yes, there are issues with animal testing.

Animal testing has always been a conundrum for me, too. I don't see them as sufficiently different from humans to justify some of the cruel things we've done to them, but they've certainly advanced our knowledge immensely. There are other dangers, too.

According to my current book The Unexpected Truth About Animals: A Menagerie of the Misunderstood, we used to use an African frog for pregnancy testing. When a modern test was developed, they were no longer needed so many were released into the wild. Unfortunately, they were really good at surviving & so became an invasive species around the world. Worse, they carried a fungus to which they're immune, but most other frogs aren't & it's wiping out entire species all over the world, even in some of the remotest places like high up in the Andes.

That one is on my list. Youd think they'd know better than to release them places where they weren't native? geez.
in one of Franz de Waal's books (maybe Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are, probably) he talks about the difference between testing on humans vs testing on other primates (and animals in general.) when testing on kids, their parents bring them in and the child is treated gently and humanely if course. In contrast, these animals are kept in small cages in totallt unnatural environments, often from birth. Such treatment of humans even on death row would be regarded as inhumane. It's been proven that lack of socialization and stimuli result in abnormal behaviors and physical and mental development. So much of this lab work is measuring individuals far from their natural states. for what that's worth. Not to speak of being just plain cruel.

Nancy wrote: "That one is on my list. Youd think they'd know better than to release them places where they weren't native? geez.
..."

You'd think. Apparently it was a combination of soft-heartedness, finances, & ease.

You're point about natural environments is well taken. The section on pandas makes this point abundantly clear.

It's common knowledge that there's a time limit on the healthy viability of women's eggs. First time mothers over 35 are more likely to have certain complications, including miscarriage and having babies with birth defects.

This was explained quite quickly but it was interesting. Contrary to popular belief, men don't have total immunity with their sperm. Some genetic mutations [called de novo or new mutations] arise spontaneously in the sperm of adult men. The prevalence of de novo mutations increases with the man's age and they contribute to autism, schizophrenia, and bipolar disorder.

In ch8, Kandel explains that when the areas of the brain which deal with emotions have been injured, the character and behavior of the afflicted person can radically change. Examples include a man named Elliot with a brain tumor in 1982 and Phineas Gage, whose brain had been impaled by a metal bar in 1845. Antonio Damasio's research on Elliott and others with similar brain damage led to his conclusion - that although their IQ levels remained unchanged, they didn't experience emotion and therefore had tremendous difficulty making decisions.

I had finished a nonfiction about economics recently-Doughnut Economics: Seven Ways to Think Like a 21st-Century Economist - in which the author criticized economists' baseline assumption that people make rational decisions, ie emotions have been removed from economic decision-making. In actuality, the field of economics had expanded since the 1990s to encompass "behavioral economics" in which that baseline assumption had been tossed out on its ear. Prior to the emergence of behavioral economics, I wonder if the neuroscientists / psychiatrists like Damasio could only shake their heads in disbelief over the faulty assumption that underpinned many economic theoretical models.

I'm putting that one on my list, it looks very good. meanwhile I'm wracking my brain trying to remember where I read about typical economic behavior not being entirely rational. Dan Ariely perhaps? Risk aversion, the fact that losing a certain amount makes you sadder than gaining the same amount, the fact that once you have something you won't take as much for it as you would have refused to buy it for before you had it (if you can follow that gibberish then you know what I'm talking about.) I've read a bit on behavioral economics and how we evolved these traits and now can't remember where.

Nancy wrote: "I'm putting that one on my list, it looks very good. meanwhile I'm wracking my brain trying to remember where I read about typical economic behavior not being entirely rational. Dan Ariely perhaps?..."

There have been economists digging away at the entrenched assumption but they had been regarded for a long time as being on the fringe. Herbert Simon came up with "bounded rationality" in the 1950s. It was an "outsider" - Daniel Kahneman a psychologist and economist - along with Abel Tversky who challenged the assumption further. Kahneman won a Nobel prize in economic science in 2002. He wrote Thinking Fast and Slow which I haven't read but I recall that the Novel prize conferred "legitimacy" on behavioral economics.

Dan Ariely's Predictably Irrational: The Hidden Forces That Shape Our Decisions brought the message to the masses. Like Kahneman, he's also an Israeli who have combined psychology with economics.

yes! thank you! Kahneman of course! I read so much then stuff it all in random cobwebby corners of my mind

I am not familiar with Simon, though. Will have to look him up.

Nancy wrote: "yes! thank you! Kahneman of course! I read so much then stuff it all in random cobwebby corners of my mind"

I have mental cobwebs too which is where Google comes in. I read https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/r... to refresh my memory about Kahneman. I knew Ariely wasn't the earliest pioneer. Economist Richard Thaler also won a Nobel prize in behavioral economics in 2017, and the web links says he's also a "founding father" of behavioral economics.

Oh, Kandel mentioned Kahneman and Tversky in ch11 pp 243-44 and how their research in the 1970s set the framework for behavioral economics.

This book whetted my appetite. I got the sense that Kandel was restraining himself. It could have been a much longer book.

My review - www.Goodreads.com/review/show/3648998200

I just finished Inferior: How Science Got Women Wrong—and the New Research That's Rewriting the Story by Angela Saini. And I'm now dubious about Kandel's claim for sexual dimorphisms within the brain -
"sex-specific structural and molecular differences, or sexual dimorphisms, [do exist] in several regions in our brains... What we don't know yet is how these dimorphisms relate to behavior."

While reading Kandel's chapter 10, I kept thinking of a documentary in which a female scientist started that it was not possible to look at brain MRI scans and identify them as female or male. In Saini's book, the neuroscientists stated that there are many, many differences between individual brains due to life experiences shaping the brain over time - ie plasticity. But what I respect at least is Kandel's careful qualification that his dimorphisms don't determine behavior and thus perpetuate gender stereotypes.

I finally finished The Disordered Mind: What Unusual Brains Tell Us about Ourselves

The book is a summary of many topics. It could have been much longer than 304 pages. Something topics are inadequately covered.
My review