Catholic Thought discussion

Summary

Chapter 5:
Catherine is forced out of her cell by Christ so that she can engage the world and thereby bring souls to salvation. At daily Mass she would take communion and go into ecstasies. In her ministry she helped the poor and cared for the sick. In all she engaged life with such sweetness and joy that a number of townspeople began to consider Catherine, despite she being younger than they, their spiritual mother.

Chapter 6:
Having completed her cell of self-knowledge, Catherine is asked by Christ to enter the world to perform His mission. She takes on the duties of a nurse, where she cares for the most horrible of patients, patients that no one else wanted to care for, either because of the patient’s irascibility or because of the repulsiveness of the patient’s disease. Through these hardships, Catherine is triumphant coming to learn that the blood of Christ is what lets the soul receive grace.

Chapter 7:
Undset provides a rendering of the violent and acrimonious Sienese politics, the noble family feuds, and how these feuds and acrimony permeated even the religious of Siena. We learn of Catherine’s father’s death in 1368 and how his sons became involved in the Sienese politics. She tells of how Lapa had momentarily died and then brought back to life on Catherine’s prayer.

Chapter 8:
Undset reaches the transitionary year of 1370 in Catherine’s life. We see here that the followers Catherine has gathered around her have become almost an institution and re about her all her waking moments. We see her become more involved in the events of her town. We see how the death of her father has dispersed the family, and where she herself had to relocate her residence. We see her have three major mystical experiences: the exchange of hearts, the mystical death, and the partial stigmata.

This book is so well written. I can't remember a saint's biography written this well. I'm totally enjoying the writing as well as content.

I will say there is one little tic in the writing that's a little annoying, and I suspect it may have to do with the translation. I assume Undset wrote this in her native Norwegian, though she was proficient in English. The book frequently refers to male Dominicans and even Franciscans as "monks." Monks are from the Benedictines and other monastic orders. Dominicans and Franciscans and other mendicant and itinerate orders are called "friars." I wonder if the word monk and friar is the same in Norwegian.

Thank you, Manny. Until you wrote this, I had thought that a man committed to the cloistered life is called a monk, regardless of the religious order.

I was particularly moved by the descriptions of St. Catherine's nursing endeavors. My grandmother and aunt are both nurses and I think they'd be floored at the conditions that Catherine was working in and the amount of abuse that she put up with from different patients. When I did hospital chaplaincy a couple summers ago the nurses were incredibly committed, but I don't think they'd take the kinda crap she was putting up with.

Frances wrote: "Thank you, Manny. Until you wrote this, I had thought that a man committed to the cloistered life is called a monk, regardless of the religious order."

I guess it depends on what the definition of "cloistered" is. I'm not exactly sure. If cloistered refers to those limited to a monastery, then they are usually called a monk. Wikipedia has a good explanation of the term friar. Here's the opening paragraph:

"A friar is a brother and a member of one of the mendicant orders founded in the twelfth or thirteenth century; the term distinguishes the mendicants' itinerant apostolic character, exercised broadly under the jurisdiction of a superior general, from the older monastic orders' allegiance to a single monastery formalized by their vow of stability. The most significant orders of friars are the Dominicans, Franciscans, Augustinians and Carmelites."

Think of it as this way: monks are homebodies, friars are traveling salesmen. ;)

Plus, haven't you read the Canterbury Tales? There was at least one monk and there were several friars.

Joseph wrote: "I was particularly moved by the descriptions of St. Catherine's nursing endeavors. My grandmother and aunt are both nurses and I think they'd be floored at the conditions that Catherine was working..."

Yes, Catherine of Siena is a patron saint of nurses, among other patronages. If a nurse works in love and in support of Christ, how could she not get to heaven? A nurse is probably among the most saintly of occupations, even more so than a doctor.

Chapter V presents an important transition in Catherine’s life. It’s worth reading over the entire narrative.

A little while after her mystical betrothal Catherine again saw her Lord in a vision. It was at the time of day when the good folk of Siena gathered round the dinner table. Jesus said: “You are to go and seat yourself at the table with your family. Talk to them kindly, and then come back here.”

When Catherine heard these words she began to weep—she was so completely unprepared to leave her cell and her life of contemplation and mix again with people in the world. But our Lord was firm:

“Go in peace. In this way you shall serve Me and become more perfectly united to Me through love of Me and your neighbor, and then you will be able to rise even more quickly to heaven, as though on wings. Do you remember how the desire to bring souls to salvation burned in you while you were still a little child—and that you dreamed of dressing yourself as a man and entering the order of the Friars Preachers to work for this end?”

Although Catherine was more than willing to obey the will of God she tried to raise objections: “But how can I be of any use in the work of saving souls, I who am merely Your poor servant girl? For I am a woman, and it is not seemly for my sex to teach men, or even to speak with them. Besides, they take no notice of what I say,” she sighed.

But Jesus replied as the Archangel Gabriel had once replied:

“All things are possible for God who has created everything from nothing. I know that you say this from humility, but you must know that in these days pride has grown monstrously among men, and chiefly among those who are learned and think they understand everything. It was for this reason that at another period I sent out simple men who had no human learning, but were filled by Me with divine wisdom, and let them preach. Today I have chosen unschooled women, fearful and weak by nature, but trained by Me in the knowledge of the divine, so that they may put vanity and pride to shame. If men will humbly receive the teachings I send them through the weaker sex I will show them great mercy, but if they despise these women they shall fall into worse confusion and even greater agony.

“Therefore my daughter, you shall humbly do My will, for I will never fail you; on the contrary, I will come to you as often as before and I will guide and help you in all things.”

Catherine bowed her head, rose and went from her chamber and seated herself at the table with her family. It is a pity that none of Catherine’s biographers has described for us the amazement it must have caused Jacopo and Lapa to see their hermit daughter seated among them… (p. 51-2)

There are a number of observations one could make from this passage. The most striking to me as a Lay Dominican is in how this follows the Dominican charism. There is a period of contemplation and there is a period of going out into the world to preach. That is the Dominican mission, to go out into the world for the salvation of souls. Christ even uses those words. One must have a period of study and contemplation, but ultimately one has to share one's contemplation. The Order of Preachers have several mottos, but one of them is “contemplare et contemplata aliis tradere (“To contemplate and to share with others the fruit of one’s contemplation”). One supposes Catherine could have joined any number of orders, but it is most fitting she joined the Order of Preachers.

Second, the fact that she’s a woman seems to not be a wall to her mission, but as Christ points out it’s actually a necessity. It’s true, women before Catherine did not preach except within monasteries and convents. Either out of convention of the times or unspoken public rule (I don’t think it was a Church doctrine) but women did not preach in public. The only notable exception I can think of was St. Hildegard of Bigen, and she obtained endorsement from St. Bernard of Clairvaux and then permission from the papacy. I can’t think of another woman unless you go back to apostolic times and church mothers. St. Catherine was really breaking a mold here.

Third, once you have entered the cocoon of spiritual contemplation, it is very hard to come out of it. Catherine weeps when she hears she must do so. Can you imagine feeling the security, spiritual comfort, and orderliness of spending three years with God alone and then having to come out? And then from the family’s perspective to have what must seemed like the “crazy woman in the attic” come down after three years locked away must have been startling. Yes, it is too bad the biographers did not get their reactions.

Fourth, Catherine bowing her head and coming out, reminds me of Elijah coming out of the cave and hearing the “still small voice” of God in 1 Kings 19:12. I think that is a fitting allusion for Catherine’s new life of ministry.

Catherine's patience with her detracters, even gratitude for them, her assumption that they were motivated by a desire for her spiritual good impressed me.

A number of things stood out to me in these chapters. Catherine's reluctant acceptance of Christ's wish to go out into the world is a big one. It's interesting that her trajectory follows the Dominican charism. Yes, definitely an Elijah moment for her.

I too was amazed at her nursing services and her care for the poor. She ministered to the sick and the poor with gentle care and treated each person with dignity. She truly was the Mother Teresa of her era.

I hadn't realized until reading this biography how well known Catherine was in her time. And how polarizing. Catherine's brothers' political enemies likely had field days spreading scandal about her. It almost seems her supporters and detractors were at war, one side proclaiming how holy she was, the other saying how hypocritical she was. Both sides likely pointed to extremes to prove their points, which is probably why the stupid pus-drinking episode gained far more prominence than it ever should have.

There are several more things that I marked in these chapters. I'll summarize to keep this from getting too long.

I was impressed:

-- to learn that Andrea di Vanni sketched an authentic image of Catherine.

-- by Catherine's almost super-human ability to rise from her sickbed to serve others or go to church.

-- by the fact she appreciated the beauty of the natural world.

-- by the way she was able to converse freely and openly with both sexes, all ages and different social classes.

I was also taken with how Catherine seemed to have a sixth sense granted when "she begged her Bridegroom to give her the grace to see the beauty of the souls among whom she lived ..." In reply, the Lord granted her the ability to understand the souls of others with her inner senses. Not just the souls around her but also those for whom she prayed. Undset says many people commented on Catherine's uncanny ability to read people.

On a side note, I too offer up pains and challenges. I try to give them up for the souls in Purgatory. The practice was drilled into me by the Sisters of Mercy at St. Brigid School
--

Totally googled di Vanni's image. It's very Middle Ages but there's something about having a face to go with what we're reading.

Oh I'm sorry I didn't link it. Yes, the di Vanni painting is the only painting of her during her lifetime. Here it is:
http://www.drawnbylove.com/Vanni%202.jpg

If my memory serves me correctly, the lily and the woman kneeling in front of her were added after her death. There is a bust of Catherine which I think was made shortly after her death. It does have her likeness:
http://drawnbylove.com/Bust.htm

As you may have read, upon her death, Rome and Siena squabbled over her relics. Rome kept the body but they sent the head and thumb to Siena. Her head is on display. The centuries have altered it a bit, but you can actually see her features here:
http://drawnbylove.com/La%20sacra%20t...

Also, if you go to this link, you will see pictures of the places in St. Catherine's world, like her home and cell under the stairs.
http://drawnbylove.com/cw.pdf

I just read an explanation of the marble bust. The claim by the artist is he made it from a mold from her "death mask." That is, a cast of her head as she lay dead. So if true, that's as close to actual facial features as one can get.

As I've looked at these over the years, I have to say that for a woman who supposedly never ate, she doesn't exactly look emaciated. If you look at the actual head relic, there seems to be a good deal of flesh still on there.

I appreciate the historical irony that St. Catherine is buried over the Temple of Minerva, the Roman Goddess of War. It seems very appropriate that a woman who spent her later life working for peace be buried in the monument to Our Lady's triumph over the pagan gods of Rome.

Joseph wrote: "I appreciate the historical irony that St. Catherine is buried over the Temple of Minerva, the Roman Goddess of War. It seems very appropriate that a woman who spent her later life working for peac..."

LOL, I never thought about that. Yes, she did work tirelessly for peace, but not as widely known today (probably because it's politically incorrect) but St. Catherine supported another crusade against Islam. If the cause was right she wasn't against all war.

Also, Minerva was also the goddess of wisdom, and I think Catherine had a lot of wisdom. Nice pickup Joseph. I like that. :)

I'd never seen the bust before! I can see facial similarities to the portrait. I love having a face for this complext saint. (I've also heard the lilies and the second person in the portrait were added later.)

It's intriguing that Catherine doesn't appear emaciated in either the portrait or the bust. Someone who truly doesn't eat looks more like 1970s singer Karen Carpenter did before she died. (Sorry, I was a huge fan and upset at her death.)

I share this before/after image link as an example only. Not promoting the blog or approving its content and not starting a conversation about anorexia. Just want to show the picture because Karen and Catherine were about the same age when they died (32 vs 33), and Karen's was a documented case of someone who didn't eat. I'm starting to believe more and more my entirely emotional assumption that Catherine's admirers and detractors stayed busy by promoting extremist views about her. https://doyouremember.com/79384/karen...

Now for something completely different ... We know about Lapa's near death experience but I wonder if Catherine also experienced a near-death. On pages 108-109, we learn that Fra Bartomommeo and another Dominican were summoned from the church to come immediately to Catherine's bedside. People were crowded around her and were convinced she was dying. At the scene, a consumptive friar had a lung hemorrhage. Fra Tommaso placed Catherine's hand on the monk (friar?)'s breast and his hemorrhage stopped. Immediately after, Catherine opened her eyes. She looked around "with an expression of deep disappointment - and turned to the wall and wept." The reason I wonder about this is because we know today how transformative near-death experiences are for people. Such an encounter with God could only have deepened Catherine's piety and her convictions and made her more determined to pursue the course she set out on.

Thanks for the Temple of Minerva reference, Joseph. I never ever would have noticed that irony!

I thought Catherine herself says that she could not eat anything except the host. I am not sure that her followers exadurated her disciplines, at least not by much.

Irene wrote: "I thought Catherine herself says that she could not eat anything except the host. I am not sure that her followers exadurated her disciplines, at least not by much."

Yes, she does say that herself. Perhaps God gave her the grace of not being emaciated.

Gerri, there are three mystical experiences in chapter eight. The exchange of hearts with Christ, the mystical death, and the partial stigmata. I had forgotten about the last two, but I always remember the exchange of hearts. Though she is not the only mystic that has reported exchanging hearts with Christ, I find that very striking. In some ways I find that more profound than a stigmata.

Irene wrote: "I thought Catherine herself says that she could not eat anything except the host. I am not sure that her followers exadurated her disciplines, at least not by much."

Irene - and Manny, too, because I saw you also replied - I believe Catherine subjected herself to long-lasting and severe fasts during which she ate ony the host. But no human can last years as she did without taking food - saintly or not. I have to consider that in between her fasts Lapa managed to get her to take some nourishing broth and/or other types of soups.

Manny wrote: "Gerri, there are three mystical experiences in chapter eight. The exchange of hearts with Christ ...."

Manny, reading about the exchange of hearts also had a profound effect on me. The depth of Catherine's mystical experiences is inspirational - even across so many centuries. It's no wonder she had so many devotees in her own time.

Gerri, It does say that her spiritual director/confessor insisted that she ate and it caused her great suffering, so much so that he stopped putting her under obedience to eat. Yes, I have to assume that she ate small amounts of broth or something similar on occassion, but nothing near enough to sustain normal healthy life.

Gerri, Irene, it says in chapter XI that she ate a small amount of nourishment. It's at the bottom of page 141 if we have the same pagination.

Yes, I read that last night. She chewed some vegetables and spit out the solid part. Can't imagine she consumed remotely enough calories to keep a bed ridden person alive doing that, let alone someone who was active.

What amazes me is how much she achieved during her short life in such difficult circumstances. I've always known of her primarily because of her interactions with the Pope. Reading this book has opened up for me the depth of her charity work. She was so dedicated to caring for the sick and poor.

Gerri wrote: "What amazes me is how much she achieved during her short life in such difficult circumstances. I've always known of her primarily because of her interactions with the Pope. Reading this book has op..."

Absolutely amazing. And for a woman in the middle ages! We haven't even gotten to her big accomplishments yet. There are certain people who can really pack a lot into their short lives.

Manny wrote: "The book frequently refers to male Dominicans and even Franciscans as "monks." Monks are from the Benedictines and other monastic orders. Dominicans and Franciscans and other mendicant and itinerate orders are called "friars."

Very possible. In German there is no distinction between monk and friar. A mendicant is a begging monk.

Kerstin wrote: "Very possible. In German there is no distinction between monk and friar. A mendicant is a begging monk."

That would explain it. Norwegian is a Germanic language. But it does surprise me somewhat. Germans seem to love to create words. I would think they would have created a word for friar. Friar comes from the Latin for "brother." How do you say "brother" in German?

Manny wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "Very possible. In German there is no distinction between monk and friar. A mendicant is a begging monk."

That would explain it. Norwegian is a Germanic language. But it does surpri..."

Yes, they are addressed as "Brother", but isn't every monk or friar addressed and referred to as "Brother"?
The German language has endless ways of making compound words, but when it comes to using special words for nuance, such as monk and friar, the English language has more words at disposal. The way it was explained to me, the British Isles had so many new settlers come in over the centuries that the language absorbed many words. I think the Normans brought in roughly 10,000 words of French...

As far as I know, if the man is in religious vows, but not ordained a priest, he is addressed as "brother". If he is ordained a priest, he is addressed as "father". It does not matter if he is in a monastic order, a mendicant order, an order of parish priests, a missionary order etc.

Yes Irene and Kerstin, every non priest religious is addressed as "brother." You may have missed my point. The term "friar" which is the title of a Dominican and Franciscan, has its Latin etymology in "brother." From the Ety,ology dictionary:

friar (n.)
late 13c., from Old French frere "brother, friar" (9c., Modern French frère), originally referring to the mendicant orders (Franciscans, Augustines, Dominicans, Carmelites), who reached England early 13c., from Latin frater "brother" (from PIE root *bhrater- "brother").
https://www.etymonline.com/word/friar

Oh I was aware of that ;-) We essentially said the same thing.

I also was aware of the use of Friar for mendicant orders. I thought Kerstin was asking a different question; I thought she was asking about the form of address. I apologize if I misunderstood her question.

No big deal, Irene. :-)

LOL, we all understood it but we didn't understand each other. :)