Catholic Thought discussion

Chapter 9
Another transition in her life now occurs, going from corporal works of mercy to spiritual works of mercy. This chapter outlines Catherine’s conversions of men who go from lives of sin and lack of faith, to repentance, conversion, and a death that is in a state of grace. Her extended spiritual family—her devoted followers—continued to grow as she becomes an important part of Sienese life.

Chapter 10
Undset provides the historical background as to why the Popes had moved to Avignon, and the attempts to persuade the Pope to return to Rome by St. Catherine’s predecessor, St. Bridget of Sweden.

Chapter 11
As Catherine’s growing influence makes her more sought after, her band of followers, the “Caterinati” also grows, attracting educated and nobility, religious and secular, and most especially sinners, those who want to be converted and those who convert against their initial wishes. Her charismatic personality and her powerful spiritual insight convert many a sinner.

Chapter 12
By 1372, Catherine’s influence had grown across Italy. Her letters now went to Cardinals and princes of city-states concerning major political issues of the day, including wars between states. And these heads of states sought her advice, not just through letters but by sending ambassadors to Siena to reach her in person. The Seraphic Virgin of Siena even endorsed global policies such as a crusade against Islam, though it was never taken up.

Chapter 13
In 1374 Catherine and her followers went to Florence on one of her missions to bring peace between warring families, and there met her future biographer and most important confessor, Blessed Raimondo of Capua. That year the Bubonic Plague would return with a vengeance and strike down a third of Siena. Catherine worked tirelessly to care for the ill and bury the dead, including performing several miracles. After the plague had subsided, Catherine and her band made a pilgrimage to Montepulciano to venerate the body and relics of St. Agnes of Montepulciano. There a miracle occurred where when Catherine went to kiss the foot of the dead woman, Agnes lifted her foot for Catherine.

Sorry I'm a little late. It's tough keeping up.

This morning in my email feed I got an inspirational quote that happened to be from St. Catherine. Let me share it:

"We've had enough of exhortations to be silent! Cry out with a hundred thousand tongues. I see that the world is rotten because of silence."
-St. Catherine of Siena

With all the craziness that is going on in the world, St. Catherine is so on the mark.

You don’t need to apologize for anything, Manny. Your commentary is skillful. It always is.

This period in Catherine’s life, when she cared for victims of the Bubonic Plague, is when I admire her most.

This section made me curious about St. Birgita. I find it fascinating how often the lives of saints overlap.

Irene wrote: "This section made me curious about St. Birgita. I find it fascinating how often the lives of saints overlap."

I was thinking similar on Blessed Raimondo of Capua the other night. He’s not a full saint (canonized) but still a blessed. Other than his relationship to St. Catherine, I realized I know nothing about him.

I also am curious about St. Birgitta. Had no idea she also tried to persuade (commanded, Undset says) the Pope to leave Avignon. Yes, the overlap among saints' lives can be stunning - look how Catherine even referenced Birgitta in a letter in 1347.

A few other items caught my attention in these chapters. One is the power Catherine had to convert sinners, including the wayward who were powerful and/or from prominent families. Unset mentions a few by name. One of them, Nanni di SerVanni, a "notorious evildoer," even cried out about how "some unknown power has triumped over me." Many of these people sought out Catherine. Her reputation was so widespread.

I also like how Undset says the Caterinati were eager to give witness to not only Catherine's power and piety, but also to her "holy gaiety." I love that - holy gaiety. She lived in times that were as chaotic as ours are today, she did demanding and serious work, yet also retained the joy of our faith and the importance of love. She was fearless! Like then she waded right into the feud between the papacy and "tyrant of Milan" Bernabo Visconti. She wrote to the papal legate and emphasized that without love, he couldn't do his duties. She didn't mean self-love but the love that comes from God and from following His will. Excerpts from the letter are on 154-155.

Manny, please don't apologize. You do an outstanding job.

Thank you Gerri.

What really puzzles me in these sections is how she went from an obscure little religious woman who did good works about town to being sought after by the highest nobility in Italy. Think about it. She comes out of her cell as a complete unknown, starts doing good works of mercy about town, starts leading people to repentance through spiritual acts of mercy, starts engaging in what I’ll call conflict resolutions about Siena, is then sought after to resolve more conflicts by powerful, and then ultimately goes to Siena’s rival city of Florence to resolve a dispute between the heads of Florence, Siena, Milan, Pisa, and I think the Papacy. That is quite a jump for an unknown woman who is not part of the aristocracy. Here’s how I piece together the timeline for those years.

1347 Birth, age 0
1363-66 Lives in her cell, age 16-19
1366 Becomes Third Order Dominican, age 19
1367 Exits her cell and starts good works, age 20
1368 Her father dies, age 21
1370 Starts Engaging in Conflict Resolution, age 23
1372 Is Sought By the Powerful for Resolutions, age 25
1374 Travels to Florence for a Peace Mission, age 27

How does a young woman go from what we today might classify as a nurse’s aide (not even a nurse) to resolving conflicts between Dukes and Cardinals in four to six years? Undset does her best to show the leap, but details would be fascinating. What were these Dukes and Cardinals thinking? Why her? What specifically did she do to gain that trust? I guess that is lost to the silence of history. But I find that astonishing.

Gerri wrote: "I also like how Undset says the Caterinati were eager to give witness to not only Catherine's power and piety, but also to her "holy gaiety." I love that - holy gaiety. ."

Yes holy gaiety! This was my mission with this book, to get that across. Because what people remember about Catherine's personality is her severe asceticism, people assume she was stern and dour. She was stern but definitely not dour. What people need to realize about her was her bubbly personality. She was gay (in the old sense of the word) and joyful and playful. She attracted the huge Caterinati because of her personality. There are lots of devout people around, but there are few people where you want to be around them all the time. She made being devout fun!

Wow, I think I really misread Catherine's experience with her culture. I never got the impression that she went from complete unknown to world spiritual rock star over night. I got the impression that her ecstacies were public as she went to Mass regularly and would go into these states in the church. I understood that people would try to pull her out of those states and were unable. I understood that these mystical experiences became famous and wide spread. Also, I thought miraculous cures were associated with her during those years when she was in deep prayer. Her generosity to the poor, her service, her spiritual wisdom were famous around Siena while she was still a teen. There might not have been any FB or AP news bulletins, but a girl who spent hours in ecstatic states in church, who people reported seeing levitate, who was known not to eat, would have made its way around Christiandom quickly as people traveled for trade and other things. I think she was not only being prepared to speak to the world with wisdom and courage, but that the world was being prepared to hear her during all those years. I never got the impression of an obscure quiet thing quietly going about the care of her neighbors and her prayer. I got the impression, early on, of someone whose spiritual life was attracting attention and was being talked about widely. I was thinking that she was well known by the time she started to reach out to church leaders. But, I guess I misread her story.

I can understand that Irene. Yes, her miracles may have opened people's eyes, but I guess the main part of my point was the connection between the dots, so to speak, has been lost to the silence. Why did this particular ruler decide to trust in her over this particular miracle. The connection between miracle or whatever it was that was persuasive and powerful figure has been lost.

I did imply a certain minimizing of her person in my comment. My exact words were "an obscure little religious woman." I hope you didn't think me sexist for that. I was merely placing her in the context of medieval society. She was not aristocratic and she was not educated. She didn't even have a powerful husband. There would be nothing about her for the powerful of her day to take note.

I'm also skeptical that the miracles could have persuaded many. I'm afraid miracles don't persuade many people. Look at it in our era. Take Padre Pio, a man who was known to bi-locate, read people's souls, and have the visible stigmata. You would think the whole world would be rushing to become Catholic. But even our own Church doubted him for a long time. Blessed Solanus Casey (is he a saint now?) was long associated with miracles, and has the United States rushed to become Catholic? Who was it that said (Dostoyevsky? or is it in the New Testament?) that despite the miracle of parting the Red Sea, the Israelites lost faith in Moses? Anyway it's also in Psalm 106. People will have miracles performed right in front of their eyes and they will not attribute to the divine. Actually look at Fatima and the miracle of the sun. How many hundreds of people witnessed it? You would think because of that the world would be rushing to become Catholic. You would think Catholics would be rushing to be Catholic. No, I'm afraid miracles don't necessarily lead to conversion and discipleship.

I think popular attitudes toward religious phenomonon shifts between various groups and eras. I think that it was easier to wip people into a religious frenzie in the 14th century than it is now. Today we hear of miracles and immediately look for a rational explanation. Even I, a believer, read of the foot of St. Agnes rising to meet Catherine's lips and started to chuckle. Yet, that was widely circulated as a powerful religious event in her day. There were many groups walking barefoot and publically wipping themselves as penitants. People were running to make pilgrimages to miraculous sites. Life was brutal, short and painful in the 14th century. People were looking for proof that there was something beyond this reality to hope in. The Church leadership was visibly corrupt. People were looking for holiness and spiritual heroism in those little, obscure people. I am not saying that her life, her petitioning of powerful people is not remarkable. I just think that her fame makes sense in the context of her time.

Well argued Irene. Yes, it's possible. It's still over a very short time, only four years. Her fame really exploded for her to be sought outside of Siena. And there was no mass communication for word to get around. Perhaps it was through her letters. I'm not sure Undset makes enough of her letters. They span all levels of society. If I remember correctly 380-ish letters survive, which I think she wrote over ten years. They are really remarkable and lend real insight into her person and thought. You can find free editions on the internet, though they were translated over 100 years ago. Perhaps if I can identify the ten or so most interesting we can do them as a short read at some point.

One more thing that may have contributed to Catherine's reputation: the political activity of her brothers. They were highly active and right in the thick of the region's political feuds. Word of Catherine may have spread via both their supporters and detractors.

I, too, was surprised at first when I read that highly placed figures were seeking her out. On page 158:

".. when Bernabo Visconti sent ambassadors to Siena to see if he could win the goodwill of the Republic in his dispute with the Pope, he gave them orders to make contact with the dyer's daughter, and if possible to get her support."

Could a saintly and beloved Sienese's support influence the local power brokers and her own immediate family? Something to think about. I think her reputation grew from a combination of what you both said, Manny and Irene, with perhaps some help from Italian family culture.

Side note: I'd love to read some of Catherine's letters. I never know where to start, though. Manny, I'd welcome your input but no rush. I've still got half of our book to read.

Yes, I forgot about Undset's explanation of family networking culture. That would have fueled the news cycle. And Catherine's family was also a significant economic presence with their large and successful dying industry.

That is a very good point Gerri. It's quite possible and as I was saying again lost to history I'm afraid.

I will pick a couple of Catherine's letters Gerri and link them here.

Also if you get Magnificat magazine, almost every month they include an excerpt from one of her letters as a meditation on a Gospel reading.

Oh! I as just looking ahead to EWTN's upcoming programing, and as part of their All Saints Day lineup, they will have an hour long show on St. Catherine of Siena. Here's the brief show description:

"Take a tour through 14th century Italy to experience the life and writings of St. Catherine of Siena in this EWTN original docudrama, filled with incredible interviews and dramatic reenactments."

It's at 2 PM and for 60 minutes. Check your local time. It doesn't mention time zone. So Sunday, November 1st.

I've got the show marked on my calendar! How exciting. I hope it's a good docudrama. I really enjoyed the movie they did on Mother Cabrini.

Oh great. My biggest fear is I will forget.

I think Catherine must have had a special kind of charisma. She was very authentic, and from the way she is portrayed here, never apologetic about her piety or love for Christ. Authenticity attracts every time. She was humble and self-deprecating, in other words, if you don't take yourself too seriously people will like your company. Then she was joyful. Who wouldn't want to be around a person like that? But I think what makes all of these attributes really shine is her natural ability to see Christ in the other. Each and every person she interacts with has her undivided attention. When nobody is treated as a nobody people take notice.