Do Better: SFF without Sexual Violence discussion
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Excluding YA - (Starts December 2)
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This Excluding YA discussion is now officially open! Share your thoughts on the points and questions raised in comment #1 or any other YA factors your like us to consider.
Mod
Intuitively I know why I'm okay with having a book like Deeplight in our shelf and I'd be hesitant to add Six of Crows (to speak of a couple of books tagged as YA on GR which I have read) but when I try to express *why* my brain most unhelpfully draws a blank 😅
Okay - this will need some polishing! But: one thing that immediately comes to mind when I think about YA is that most (many? all?) stories that fall under this umbrella seem to have been crafted with the specific and deliberate purpose of creating buzz within a specific readership (the actual age of the readers doesn't seem to be a factor at all) and generating ships, gadgets, fan fiction, fan art, cosplay, etc.
To achieve this goal, usually these stories dedicate a lot of attention to character design - like in videogames and comics, where the visual appearance of a character is often key to determine their personality (and their appeal to the audience) - and to character interaction.
To me that's an immediate difference between a book like Deeplight and Binti on one side, and Six of Crows or Nevernight on the other. Six of Crows and Nevernight dedicate a lot of time and attention at making sure the readers have a very definite impression of how the characters look, establishing their speech patterns and salient personality traits, their quirks and anything else that makes them distinctive from the get go, while Deeplight and Binti go the "show, don't tell" route instead.
Hmm, thats really interesting that you say that, Elena! I don't think you're wrong at all, but personally I'm a person who doesn't picture characters as more than entities with name tags (I think of it as seeing their soul? It feels better), so I don't think I've ever even considered that concept for determining YA! But I definitely have some creative friends who always love to work with YA!One barrier that always crosses my mind (this comes from neopets boards waaaaaay back when hahaha) is a YA book will often "fade to black" for any explicit or harsh things leaving a bit to be desired, where an adult will answer any questions you might have. Obviously this isn't be the only thing by ANY means, because not all adult books even have moments where they need to "fade to black," but whenever it happens in a book it solidifies my idea that its YA.
Mod
Yes this!!! Well said, a very good distinction.
And the same could be said for romance. Understanding of a book is SFF with a romantic element or Romance with some SFF elements can be difficult when you first explore the genres. But what you explain works here too, how much of the narrative is focused on the issues at hand vs. how misunderstood, special, desirable the MC is? Or how much of the MCs thoughts are focused on interpersonal relationships with friends and romantic interests vs. the issues in the wider world?
Throne of Glass is very much a 'chosen one' story. It's all centred in the MC and her personal traits, sword skills and relationships. Yes there is an oppressive world and big evil that needs taking down, but imho there is a lot more time spent making the MC seem cool than there is time spent uncovering the systems of oppression. To me this reads as YA and the kind I'd like to exclude.
I've heard before that the age of the protagonist isn't a valuable indicator, but I'm not sure I fully understand why not. Maybe if we discuss that, we'll clarify some of our thoughts. Could we please have that discussion?
On a different metric, the weaker YA that I read makes me 'tsk,' makes me want to slap them into growing up/acting their age, and often makes me dnf. Good YA has a more universal appeal, for example Wizard of Earthsea or Howl's Moving Castle (sorry for only coming up w/fantasy not SF examples atm).
Beige wrote: "...how much of the narrative is focused on the issues at hand vs. how misunderstood, special, desirable the MC is? Or how much of the MCs thoughts are focused on interpersonal relationships with friends and romantic interests vs. the issues in the wider world?..."Certainly an excellent metric, yes.
I prefer we still have YA because even (arguably YA) books like The Goblin Emperor have some CW (view spoiler) and it would make me feel safer if there is a resource I could use to screen the YA books I read (even though not many).
I think the age of the protagonist as more of a ... hint, if you will. I think it is a valuable indicator, but I also think it definitely can't be the only indicator. If the MC is 40+, I can't really imagine it being YA, but if a MC is in the age range that YA is supposed to target (it varies, but to be more inclusive let's say 14-19? ish?), then it may not necessarily be YA, even though the MC are of that age. Sometimes adult books play at the concept of children's innocence or imagination etc.Currently I'm reading The Burning God, Book 3 of The Poppy War, and all of the MC are only 16 or so at this point, but it is... QUITE graphic. I would never give these to a teen to read. But young characters allow Kuang to play with how trauma makes people grow up too soon, child soldiers, how growing up amidst war affects your view on the world etc. So I think age is not invaluable, but it's just not a definitive answer. :)
I seem to remember the first half of The Poppy War felt YA to me but the second half was definitely not, CW galore 😅
Hahaha, Silvana, I agree! I always think about that. It really shocks you into the recreation of the Rape of Nanking, which I didn't particularly appreciate. As it goes on, I'm glad I know about these backgrounds for Rin and all the MCs, because it definitely adds, but I did not like that QUICK AND DRASTIC change. Definitely a weird choice.
Mod
Yes! Excellent analogy.
And I think you managed to pint-point where the line in the sand should be with your Throne of Glass example (what scares me a little is that it seems that we're likely headed towards another book-by-book resolution 😅)
Mod
I think Jo touched upon an important point in her very first post on this thread though:
"Many YA books have content warnings in reviews, and the few sources for SV without SFF are YA focused"
Books like The Goblin Emperor are precisely the kind of stories we have in mind in trying to make a distinction between the more... I'm not sure how to define it, mainstream? type of YA (think books by Sarah J. Maas, Holly Black, etc.) which already gets plenty of coverage and attention, and books like Deeplight, for which finding resources about content warnings might be a bit harder.
What characteristics should a YA story have to be admissible in our shelf? We certainly don't want to limit the scope of our interests to exclude younger protagonists, our stories with romantic elements, or bildungsroman, so we're trying to figure out precisely how to avoid coming up with something definitive like "No YA at all". But where do we set the line to be able to exclude the type of YA we have no interest in having in our shelf?
Mod
Yes, this is another good point - I feel the same. As you say, there will never be a YA protagonist of 38: the young age of a YA MC is such a key factor that it's usually always mentioned in the blurb itself (Eg. Maas' Throne of Glass: "18-year-old assassin Celaena...")
But the same doesn't apply in reverse, or we wouldn't have such a hard time finding SFF books featuring, say, a womxn past her thirties 😂 If we go by MC age alone, that I'd guess several of the SFF books we read are actually in the New Adult age-range.
It is indeed hard to categorize genre or subgenre. I read Throne of Glass and well, suffice to say, I stopped reading YA for a while after that because I was so sure they were all like that 😅 I was wrong, obviously.
Mod
Haha! True. But everything we do will be book by book.
It would certainly be easier to just allow all ages, but I've seen example after example of how the more light/adventurous YA books mushroom and fill SFF lists on GR. As you say, the key is to be able to concisely articulate to future members the type of YA we will allow vs. those we'd like to exclude because...reasons 😉
I feel like everyone's comments are helping us get closer. In the bookstore world we simplified it by applying an informal "literary" scale when we discussed adult and YA genres. Here is my attempt to decipher our coded speak
Highly literary/experimental - doesn't care if you 'get it' or not ;)
Literary - more focused on the human condition, elevated prose
Kind of literary - has more serious themes, attention paid to prose - with a side of adventure
Not literary - solely focused on heroes/adventure/saving the world from evil (human, monsters, empires/corporations) - varying degrees of 'casualness' in the prose
But.There's plenty of YA and even Juvenile that is Literary, like many works by Sonya Hartnett and David Almond; There are also plenty of works that are way too graphic and intense that are YA, like many of Francesca Lia Block, Laurie Halse Anderson, and Hartnett's. Juvenile Historical Fiction, btw, often has a second primary character who is an adult, perhaps a mentor &/or a grandparent. Picture-books and graphic novels for young children, whether SF or any genre, often have adult characters.
In fact, I often turn to adult works to get a break from the intensity and thoughtfulness of YA and Juv.
I wouldn't want to leave off something 'light' just because it's written at a YA level, either... and lots of adult books are so. Think chick lit. Or best-selling thrillers. Older books by Michael Crichton may have a few 'mature' bits but they are certainly not adult level writing, for example.
Honestly, I think we're best off evaluating these possibilities on a case by case basis. We could possibly say something like "YA books considered if they have wide appeal to adults."
Okay not a perfect idea, but maybe can be built on: WHAT IF... we consider YA books that have any decent appeal to adults, BUT ONLY if the resources on said book being SV free are NOT incredibly easy to find. So then, to stick with the SJM example. Her work is very YA in Throne of Glass, and a bit less so as she continues to write, BUT her work is so widely read and reviewed on so many sources, that it would just be redundant to throw it on our shelves as well (not that it would necessarily be appropriate but).
Because a big problem we were thinking was that the resources available currently are near all geared toward YA, so those lists exist already, so that's not necessarily our goal here, nor does it seem necessary.
So if someone offers a book that *seems* YA-like, but is not on any readily available via Google search lists, then it would be in the running to be added. Whereas, if the "seemingly YA" book was listed on some readily available via Google lists, then it would just not be added, because we aren't aiming to be a redundant list of SV free YA books.
I struggle with making a book go through a five factor verification in order to just be considered. Haha!
That allows for less of a strict rule for "what is and isn't YA" but more a "would our bookshelf be an additional resource, or would it be YET ANOTHER list that says that Lord of the Rings is the best fantasy of all time"
Mod
Wow, this is tricky, but certainly less daunting than our previous topics.
I'm going to ponder your thoughts and comment again soon.
If we're still trying to come up with a definition of YA, that which reveals why so many of us don't particularly care for it, I saw someone else talking about angst. It's shorthand that clarifies, for me, the metrics and motifs mentioned in post 5 by Beige. fwiw
If we're still trying to come up with a definition of YA, that which reveals why so many of us don't particularly care for it, I saw someone else talking about angst. It's shorthand that clarifies, for me, the metrics and motifs mentioned in post 5 by Beige. fwiw
Another issue is that there are so many genre-benders: books that are often categorized as YA due to character age and lack of graphic content, but have the usual epic fantasy depth, number of characters, complexity, etc.My vote would go towards having a separate YA/Middlegrade shelf on which we *only* include books our active members (5+ posts at least, age 21+) have actually read and enjoyed. This way one doesn't need to argue why one thought XYZ was immature or not immature, good or not good, we can just go by "hey, we're mature adults and we enjoyed these".
I think this would automatically exclude books that truly only appeal to very young readers while still acknowledging that there is a broad range of books available that often have lots of diversity and zero sexual violence and can be enjoyed by adult readers.
A separate shelf... interesting idea...Glad I'm not the mod having to sort this all out!
Mod
Haha! It's all good. In my former career, I did stuff like this all the time. You're all keeping me sharp 😉
Mod
Thanks for sharing! Our intent was actually to exclude most YA, but we're trying to define what that means as well as the pros and cons. Good to know you see no YA as a negative. We'll thoughtfully consider your views and ideas. 🤗
Mod
I've been going back and forth. I agree that we don't want there to be a giant list of exclusions and exceptions that members have to wade through and learn when recommending books to the group...... On the other hand, we already have a fairly large list of things we exclude 😉, for very good reasons. As a result, some members may opt not to participate in our long term project, finding it too cumbersome to learn our rules. I'm okay with that. For the project to work, we just need a small number of regular contributors. All other members and Google browsers can benefit from our work - a highly curated SV-free bookshelf-database.
For now, my desire is to keep this group focused on adult SFF. Researching/validating adult SFF brings me joy, researching most YA would feel like a chore. And as I've mentioned, the more popular YA has a proven record of taking over lists on GR. However, I'm willing to revisit this decision again in the future, as the group expands. If future members express a strong desire for YA inclusion, we can add Mods to support with that research. 😁
In the meantime, from your comments, I see consensus that we do want to allow for some YA exceptions. I'll craft a YA exclusion guideline shortly for you all to review
Beige, that sounds wonderful! Thank you so much for all of this effort, we appreciate you!
Mod
YOUNG ADULT BOOKS - DRAFT:
We acknowledge that many adults read books marketed as YA and many books blur the lines between YA and adult in their content and tone. However, this group's current focus is centered on Adult SFF.
Exceptions for active members: Members who regularly contribute adult recommendations are also permitted to suggest YA SFF books they believe are more 'adult' in tone and theme. Here are the YA exception guidelines:
We WILL consider YA where the narrative is centred on broader Adult themes, such as:Moderators will research/validate that each YA recommendation meets our SV and YA guidelines. A 'YA' bookshelf tag will be added to all approved recommendations.
Inequality, Oppression, Prejudice, War, Trauma, Race, Gender, Sexuality, Mental Health, Climate Crisis, Philosophy
We WILL NOT consider YA where the narrative is character focused and centered on YA themes, such as:
Heroism, Chosen One, Coming of age, Angst, First Love, Friendship drama, Character apperance, Fashion, Special powers and skills, Misunderstood misfits
"Inequality, Oppression, Prejudice, War, Trauma, Race, Gender, Sexuality, Mental Health, Climate Crisis, Philosophy"These all sound awfully serious. Sometimes a story is just a story.
I mean, the way this draft is written, adventures written for adults wouldn't qualify as being serious enough. Especially as heroism is put in the Not category.
I do understand your point, and most of the structure of the message is clear. But the examples just don't convey the message with clarity or inclusion, imo.
Mod
These all sound awfully serious. Sometimes a story is just a story.
I mean, th..."
Cheryl, thanks for reviewing 😉 Can you clarify your feedback?
Did you take from my draft that these rules apply to adult AND YA? They are only intended for YA, so any type/tone of adult SFF (adventure, heroine etc) all of those would be considered for our shelves. If I spelled this out, would that resolve your feedback, or were you raising additional concerns?
Friendship drama is not an exclusive YA thing, I guess?
Why exclude heroism? My understanding was always that in one's teen years, one believes in the edgelordy "everyone sucks, so nothing matters" and then later comes to respect heroes and selfless people as one matures. 😄
Mod
To clarify...
1) We want to exclude most YA (reasons stated in comment #29)
2) We want to allow exceptions for YA that is more adult focused.
Comment # 31 is my attempt at explaining the type of YA we will make exceptions for. If comment #31 isn't clear, I'm open to ideas on how to re-phrase. Or alternatively, we can just go the easy route and consider excluding all YA.
I don't think that YA should be judged by different standards. Especially because there is no clear definition of YA. We couldn't exclude it all... because there is no defined way to tell what to exclude... it most certainly would not be an easy route.
The only way I see to handle this is on a case-by-case basis. So, active member X recommends a book, mentioning that it has been tagged as YA by some. Other active members approve or disapprove based on the metrics of
1. has adult appeal (isn't *just* a book for teens), and
2. has no SV and
(I don't remember the other exclusions, something about series maybe...).
We certainly won't make ppl who would feel it a chore to read YA to do so. There are enough of us who are both active and understand the purpose of the database, who can vet the nominations.
Mod
Haha! But I don't think it failed at all - up to that point *it looked* like we were more or less all on the same page in regard to what constitutes YA and your draft made it clear that... that isn't the case at all 😂
Or, at the very least, that we can't reach a consensus based on content to determine what is and what isn't YA.
Cheryl's suggestion (comment #37) seems the most reasonable solution at this stage: I think we should give it a trial run, and regroup later on to discuss the results of this approach.
Thoughts?
Mod
@ Elena, I agree with your comment. What Cheryl outlines in #37 is similar to our original approach. We state we are adult focused and judge any YA titles members submit on a case by case basis.
I'll also reiterate that in the future, if we have a lot of YA interest we can revisit our No YA guideline.
Mod
Moderator Next steps:
1) Update group guidelines with all town hall decisions
2) Share our schedule for our 2021 monthly book chats
Just catching up by reading older threads. Must say...this is a large part of why I joined this group. 1. I’m excited to discuss books in the absence of YA...
2. it was really great to read the words ‘YA has a habit of becoming dominant genre on GR’ (see, thank you! I had observed this without consciously defining it...I think I was just starting to think something like: The World Has Become YA.)
3. Ha! So there’s not a formal definition! I’d been recently bummed out by several books....found myself invested in them or part way through before the YA crept up on me. I literally was confused, and thought, “Do these have a label I’m missing?” I imagined a circular label a la Reese’s Book Club with pink and purple stars and the label: YA.
So, it was very nice to read this thread, thanks for the conversation, belatedly.
Mod
1. I’m excited to discuss books in the absence of YA...
2. it was really great to read the ..."
I'm glad you enjoyed our discussions 😊 While we weren't able to achieve our original goal of defining YA (that doesn't read as YA), I agree, it still made for an interesting discussion.
If you're interested, here is a tip for determining if a books is YA or not. On a books GR page look on the right side for the genre shelf tags. GR members add these. If the most popular tag is YA, then you can safely avoid it, if YA is the third or 4th most popular then it probably still reads as YA. If it only has a handful of YA tags and appears near the bottom, they are probably just errors/people you might not agree with, so it probably reads more like an adult book.
I hope that helps!
Do Better: SFF without Sexual Violence
Books mentioned in this topic
Throne of Glass (other topics)Throne of Glass (other topics)
Deeplight (other topics)
Six of Crows (other topics)
Binti (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Sonya Hartnett (other topics)David Almond (other topics)
Francesca Lia Block (other topics)
Laurie Halse Anderson (other topics)
Michael Crichton (other topics)
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Our group aims to exclude YA books from our bookshelf. This is due to moderator perference and 2 key observations:
1) Many YA books have content warnings in reviews, and the few sources for SV without SFF are YA focused
2) YA has a habit of taking over and becoming the dominant genre on GR lists
However, how do we decide what is and isn't YA? We know that the massive sales opportunity of YA, has publishers marketing books as YA that are clearly not typical of the "genre".
We could say we'd make an exception for stories that have more elements than the usual coming of age/young love themes. However, a member could argue that Sarah J. Maas's work contains more than the usual themes, and then we'd be knee deep in YA.
Another group I'm a member of, SFFBC, recently did a deep dive into their members perception of YA and the findings were quite varied. I'm sure we'll face that here too, but I think it's worth discussing so we can agree upon guidelines that get us closer to our goal.
"YA" books we've permitted so far:
Deeplight
The Marrow Thieves
YA we have excluded:
A Song of Wraiths and Ruin