Outlander Series discussion
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***Spoilers***Did anyone else feel this way?
Did anyone else feel that the introduction of the "Willie Story" was a betrayal to Jamie's relationship with Claire and Brianna?I know that sounds somewhat crazy under the circumstances the characters were in at the time (separated for 20 years), but that was my first and emotional reaction to reading that chapter in Voyager. Honestly, there is a part of me that has never recovered from it either...
I was hoping to see if anyone else had the same reaction, and wanted to discuss why that may be.
No. I didn't like that Jamie never got to raise either of his children and had to hide who his son was. He never got to see them grow up. To me it felt like a betrayal to Jamie and William that Jamie saw his son but had to keep his distance and William didn't know the truth. (view spoiler)
Your feelings are rational ones, the way I thought I should react to the situation, but yet I still found myself uneasy and upset over it. I was irritated at myself for having such an immature emotional reaction, but there it was.But then, as I started to try an make since of my feelings, I realized there was this great sadness and tragedy when it came to Claire and Jamie's history of having children. First, Claire is thought to be barren, and it takes quite awhile for her to become pregnant. Then, once she is, a traumatic miscarriage happens upon seeing her husband duel BJR (something I will always blame Jamie for even though he had cause). Once she finally gets pregnant again, Claire and Jamie are forced to part, never to have the opportunity to raise their child together; that scene will always be the most intense and traumatic scene of the series to me. It is Jamie that begs her to go and save herself and their unborn child. She goes, but only to honor Jamie's dieing wish.
There's something else too. Though it's never stated directly, Jamie always wanted a son. Each time Claire is pregnant, he thinks the child is a boy and refers to it as such.
Yet, it's not Claire that gives him a son..... It's an obnoxious, soiled, blue blood English gentry girl that has blackmailed Jamie into bedding her. She is the complete opposite of Claire, and not in a good way. This is the woman that Jamie will always be grateful to for giving him his son.....not Claire. Just as he told Claire she held a piece of his soul for being the mother of his child (Voyager), I guess this woman also holds a piece for being the mother of his beloved son. And that is where I feel the tragedy lies.
I guess I feel after all Jamie and Claire have been through, that special bond between a man and woman creating a life out of the love for each other is somewhat diminished by the fact he shares that bond with another.
Jamie didn't create his son out of love though. As you stated it was out of blackmail. So that same bond isn't shared with that woman (wish I could remember her name.)I remember when reading these books that at some point Claire feels the way you did and I didn't understand it. She felt betrayed. And I felt "what the heck did you expect?" lol.
I guess even if he had have created William out of love I wouldn't have been able to hold it against him. I thought it was really selfish of Claire to feel cheated after everything Jamie had lived through. Had he been able to find someone to give him a little happiness and comfort, I would have wanted that for him. After all, she had him now.
Bree felt that way too, cheated upon. I understood Bree better. Learning who you thought wasn't your real Father. Then learning that your real Father has been pining for you for 20 years then you find out he has another child that he also has to be pining for because he had to remain separate from that one too.
Still selfish feelings but ones I understood better than Claire's.
Mrsbooks- interesting thoughts.....One thing I have learned about myself since I started to discuss these books, is that I tend to be a defender of Claire's character more than Jamie's. I don't really know why that is, while reading the books I felt like my devotion towards them both was equal. Once I started to get into discussions about the books though, I found myself looking at things through Claire's prospective more. Is this because I am a married woman and relate more to the female protagonist? I'm sure partly, but I think there is more to it than that.
You see, when I read the end of DIA, my interpretation of Jamie and Claire's separation was of Jamie's doing. It was Jamie that begged Claire to leave, it was his choice not her's. She wanted to stay and die with him, she was honoring his wishes. Was it noble of Jamie to want to save her's and their child's life? Of course, but it was his choice all the same, and thus I never blamed Claire for leaving him or going back to Frank. Jamie begged her to do it, and she did it out of obligation to honor Jamie's wishes.
She stayed in a loveless marriage with a man that cheated on her repeatedly for 20 years. Why did she do that? IMO, because she wanted Brianna to have a happy and stable home growing up, and that means having a loving father for support. She did it for her daughter, and to keep her word to Jamie.
Do I feel for Jamie's hardships during their 20 year separation? Yes, very much so, But Claire's time apart was not a bed of roses.
So I sympathize with Claire's feelings. Jamie sent her away. When she finds out he lived, she made arrangements to find him. She gave up her carrier, that she worked very hard for, her comfortable life in the 20st century, and most importantly her child. All to come back to him, if nothing else to let him know his child survived. She had no I idea what she might find, and said so much.
But that doesn't mean she is unwarranted for having jealous feelings upon hearing about Jamie's extra marital relationships. This is a man she sacrificed everything for out of love. So knowing he had fathered another child and remarried in her absents, to me, her feelings of jealousy are a natural human emotion under the circumstances. Funny, selfish is a characteristic I would never think of Claire possessing.
Shay-I kind of see the situation with Jamie and William in a different light than Jamie and Brianna's relationship.
Both are tragic for Jamie, no doubt. But.......
For me, Jamie and Brianna's separation holds more sadness. This was his legitimate child with Claire. He had every right to be a father to her, and that was cruelly taken away from him.
William is different. He is a bastard, and legally Jamie has no claim to him under the law at that time. William is thus raised by his mother's family, upon the death of his legal parents. Also, at this time in history, such a situation would be considered a disgrace and highly dishonorable, I don't think Jamie would ever feel it was right for him to raise William. I know that sounds harsh (and it is), but that was the way of the times back then. Having the time he did with William was really a gift, and it was a lot more than he ever got to have with the child that was his out right.
Mrsbooks wrote: "Jamie didn't create his son out of love though. As you stated it was out of blackmail. So that same bond isn't shared with that woman (wish I could remember her name.)Why not? She still gave birth to his son. For that he will always be grateful, and he feels great guilt over her death. He even told Claire Geneva's death was "a dagger to his heart" and when Willie came "it gutted" him. I never heard him use words like that when referring to Brianna, and I never felt Jamie expressed such guilt for causing Claire's miscarriage and than not being there when she needed him most when dieing of child bed fever.
Just more reasons behind my feelings of betrayal over the Willie story line. I guess I just resent Jamie having such a bond with anyone other than Claire.
I am more in the thought of "what was she expecting?" Jamie sent Claire away fully expecting her to go back to Frank and raise their child and him to die in battle. When he didn't die he had no way of contacting Claire - that would have been his preference I am sure. Was he supposed to live his life to the end with out ever being with another woman? He was still in his 20's. Claire was not alive in his time he was no longer married to her just as Claire was no longer married to Frank when she married Jamie.Living with out being with another woman is what he intended but a few circumstances changed that. First it was the woman in the cave that came to him. Next it was Williams young spoiled mother that black mailed him so he had no choice. Finally it was Laoghaire whom he felt a sense of responsibility for and was coerced to marry by Jenny. There was no real reason for him not to do that. Claire would not have reacted so negatively if it was somebody else AND Jamie was up front about it in the beginning upon her return. Jamie kept William and Laoghaire a secret from Claire until she found out from a different source.
When I read your posts Jan, I feel as if I'm reading my own thoughts. I feel better knowing there are other people who feel the same in regards to Willie lol :)I'm embarrassed to say this but I honestly hate Willie. I am aware that none of what happened between his parents is his fault but I still dislike him and his existence very very much. I feel ridiculous for feeling like this but I can't help it. I guess feelings aren't always rational or logical...
I do feel like Willie is a betrayal from Jamie's side. I think this whole thing took some shine away from Jamie and Claire's great love. I am not going to lie, I hate the thought of either one of them having children with someone else. Also I agree, he seems to feel more guilty over Willie/Geneva than Faith which bothers me a lot because Faith is so so precious to me. The fact that he wanted a son so badly and that Claire wasn't able to give him one, makes me dislike Willie even more.
One of the things that bothers me the most about Willie is the way in which he was conceived. I have no problem with Jamie remarrying or being with another woman. He thought he had lost Claire forever so it's only normal for him to try and find happiness with somebody else, but I really disliked that whole Geneva story and found it very unbelievable. So I'm expected to believe that Jamie who is supposedly this very intelligent and highly resourceful person was so easily manipulated by some kid? I think if he really wanted, he could've found another way to solve the blackmail problem.... which leads me to believe that he simply wanted to have sex with Geneva which I find very creepy considering the fact she was barely 18 and he was twice her age (and he didn't stop when he was asked to). Then this smart man decides to ejaculate in her instead of simply pulling out? Why would he risk that? I'm sorry but this all is so unlike Jamie to me, also very poorly executed by Diana imo.
I too tend to defend Claire's actions more than Jamie's and I don't really understand why this is when Jamie is my favorite character in Outlander. But some of his actions really do make me angry.
I don't think Claire deserves to be called selfish over this tbh, she never once behaved negatively regarding Willie or reproached Jamie for what happened with Geneva. Sure, she was hurt when she first found out but I think that's normal considering the way in which she found out. Jamie hid the fact that he had a son with another woman from her and the way Lord John told her about it was very mean imo. Even though I do like John, he had no right to tell her that and I think he only did it to hurt her. Finally, I think it's only natural to feel a bit hurt or jealous when you find out the person you love most has a child with another woman. But I think she gets past those feelings very quickly, if not the same day she finds out.
I still haven't finished Echo just because it has so damn much Willie and it really bothers me. Also I don't find him an interesting character so he tends to bore me to death. I must say I dread the day when Willie and Jamie finally become close (cause we all now that that will eventually happen).
I know what I said makes no sense, but that's how I feel nonetheless.
This is an interesting discussion - as all of them are, really! That most of us identify with Claire is natural, I think, as the books are written from Claire's point of view. While we get to see what Jamie goes through, it is always as viewed by Claire. Even when we read about his history during their time apart, we are somehow reading it through her eyes, I think. Claire's first feelings upon hearing about Willie was jealousy - for herself, and for Briana as well. Jan, I think you felt the feelings of betrayal with that story because Jamie did. He was betraying his fidelity to Claire, then his ability to care for his son, and the final betrayal of having to abandon his son when he left Helwater. (What a name that is! Has anyone else ever thought about the symbolism of the name of that place- both hellish and healing at the same time?)
These characters are so compelling because they are flawed, make mistakes, some gigantic, some smaller, and are willing to bear the consequences of their actions. They make amends when they can, sometimes quite literally going to the ends of the earth as well as through time and space - and back for those they love. And we get to go, too! I am so happy to have found other 'groupies' who get my obsession with these books!
btw - Willam's mom is Geneva
I really disliked William's story line in Echo - it was boring and I felt like he was a spoiled rich brat. (I didn't like Bree much at first either) But in my opinion he begins to mature in MOBY and is a bit more interesting. I agree that I think Jamie and William will become close before the series ends. I want that for Jamie and think it will be a good thing. I do not feel like it takes away from Jamie and Claires love story at all. In fact Claire's acceptance of Willie and Jamie's love for him strengthens it in my opinion.As far as the Geneva and LJG story line I feel like DG was writing believable characters because there are people out there that do those kinds of things. There are spoiled brats that can be very manipulative. There are good people that say or reveal things out of spite or to hurt people. There are people that make bad choices, like Jamie does, and loose self control. These situations happen in real life as they do in her books. DG has not held back on the other ugly aspects of human nature so I am not surprised she did it there either.
I just wanted to clarify that by saying unbelievable I didn't mean that I found Geneva to be an unbelievable character, quite the contrary actually. What I found unbelievable was how easily Jamie gave in, she threatens him once and he's like "ok ok I will have sex with you even though you're barely an adult, I will risk getting you pregnant and I won't even try to find another solution". I just would have never thought Jamie, being the person he is, would do that or that he could be so easily manipulated. But ofc that's just my opinion.
Miranda wrote: "When I read your posts Jan, I feel as if I'm reading my own thoughts. I feel better knowing there are other people who feel the same in regards to Willie lol :)I'm embarrassed to say this but I h..."
Oh my Miranda! We are truly kindred spirits. Yes! to everything you said. I too know my feelings are not rational, but I can't help the way I reacted to this storyline. I thought I was the only one who thought it was ridiculous to think an 18 year old girl could out wit a man twice her age lol. And I too was bothered by the fact he didn't stop when she cried out, or pull out before finishing the deed. That seemed so out of character for the Jamie that had been written in the first two books.
Funny though, I have always disliked Willie up to the point of the last two books. Then something started to change for me, I started to like him a bit more. Maybe because he is starting to come into his own. Though I admit, I'm not going to enjoy the whole Willie/Jamie bonding when it does happen in the future books. At least I don't think I will lol.
Carol wrote: "This is an interesting discussion - as all of them are, really! That most of us identify with Claire is natural, I think, as the books are written from Claire's point of view. While we get to see..."I agree:) I also think people's interpretations and reactions are influenced by their own life experiences. For example, I am a wife and mother who has been married to the same man for 25 years. The thought of my husband having children with another woman is crushing. I think when some people read a story with rich characters that they become invested in, they tend to relate to those characters and interpret their actions by projecting their own ideals on to them. Thus, the multitude of varying opinions.
You are so right about the way DG writes these characters. It keeps me coming back for more.
Diane wrote: "I really disliked William's story line in Echo - it was boring and I felt like he was a spoiled rich brat. (I didn't like Bree much at first either) But in my opinion he begins to mature in MOBY an..."I totally agree with you about the way DG writes these characters, and honestly, that is why I think I've enjoyed this story so much- the complexity of the characters. DG is brilliant at writing them:)
In regards to the "What was she expecting...." I don't know that she was expecting anything specifically. I think DG wrote Claire with a pretty open mind upon her return to find Jamie. DG wrote that Claire was relieved to find Jamie living alone in Edinburgh, but I never felt like Claire had some high expectation of finding Jamie single after all that time. I always thought Claire was well aware he most likely won't be.
But IMO, how the mind reacts and how the heart reacts are two different things, and that to me is where Claire's feelings come into play. Her reaction over finding out Jamie was married and had a child was a reaction of the heart. A normal reaction of someone who is deeply in love with someone. It's not logical, it's emotional.
I must agree with Jan, one's emotions and one's intellect are often in conflict. She couldn't help feeling jealous of William. But Claire is conflicted so many times though the whole series. How many times has she said one thing and done another? When she found out about William, I'm sure she felt betrayed, even though she went back and lived with Frank for 20 years. I don't think Claire and Frank's relationship was entirely loveless. Claire did love Frank at one time and she surely must have felt guilt as well. She chose Jamie over Frank. Although she may have had her doubts about his loyalty even before she passed through the stones. I find it significant that she got insulted at Frank for asking her if she had been faithful through out the war separation, but noticed that she didn't in turn ask Frank the same question. Her anger at Jamie when she returned was because he wasn't up front with her and concealed his history.
Agree Gertt- Claire's anger towards Jamie stems from his deceitful and dishonest behavior. Oh boy...I feel like I'm opening a whole other can of worms here. Not only is this storyline a betrayal to Jamie and Claire's relationship imo, it's a betrayal to Jamie's character. One of the strongest character traits DG writes Jamie having is honor, but the way he treats Claire upon her return is nothing but dishonorable. I understand DG wanted to portray Jamie as a "changed" man- his time away from Claire had hardened him in some ways. But to me, DG went a little too far with this. I found myself really not liking Jamie at this point in the story, and wondering if Claire had made the right decision to come back.
gertt wrote: "Jamie was a prisoner, he had no rights or freedoms, Geneva's lies could have sent him right back to prison or worse. Jamie did what he had to do under the circumstances." I personally don't see it that way. Yes he was a prisoner and Geneva could have caused him a lot of trouble but to not even try to find another solution?! If he had tried to find another way to get out of that problem and failed, then I'd be more understanding of his giving in to Geneva's threats. But he didn't even try? (Also he tells her to choose a "safe day" but then ends up not being "safe" himself?) It just doesn't sound like Jamie to me at all. He faced much bigger problems before this and he never gave up, always tried to find a way and now all of the sudden some little girl comes along and he gives in without even the smallest fight? I just don't buy it, but that's just my opinion.
I agree with you Jan, I understand what Diana wanted to achieve with all of this but that doesn't mean I have to like the way in which she did it. Jamie is not perfect, he makes mistakes and he changes as time passes by. Outlander isn't supposed to be a fairytale where everyone and everything is perfect and that's why I like these books so much. But I too feel she might have gone a little too far and I think she could have conveyed the same message in another, better way.
I really don't like the fact that he has a child with another woman, a son at that, a child that is not even a product of love or some kind of affection. I'm jealous that he got to see Willie grow up and that he wasn't able to do the same with Bree.. or Faith. This must sound ridiculous to the rest of you... but that's how I feel *shrugs*
I understand your frustration with the story line because of your feelings toward the characters of Jamie and Claire. I think there were several factors that were involved in Jamies decision to go along with Geneva. I cannot remember the specifics but she was not just threatening him and his freedom she was threatening that of his family - Jenny specifically. You know how strong his sense of responsibility was toward them and he had much guilt already for the hardships they have endured. This act he was to perform was a little sacrifice compared to what would befall them. Also the age thing. She was 17 and it was very common for a girl of 16 or 17 to be married in that time and age. He did not feel like he was having sex with a child half his age. She was going to be forced to marry a very old man (eeeeww in itself) and wanted to experience what it should be. She was immature, and as most teens are, didn't fully realize the implications involved and that it still would not be the real experience when it is coerced. Jamie wanted to give a little normalcy to her in that situation - it was not horrible for him even though he knew it was not right either. I am glad he got to see Willie for the first few years of his life especially since he never even knew Brianna was alive or not. He wanted a child and he wanted to bond with him as much as possible and it was a blessing that he was able to do so. It being a son is irrelevant to me.It shows strong character for him to bond with Willie and be there as long as he could even though he knew Willie would be brought up with the best of care. I am also glad he got to know Brianna as an adult Willie never took that place in his heart and Bree was able to move right into it.
I'm so glad you asked this question. I've been missing my Outlander fix and now with the show not on we all seemed to have stopped talking about it. We needed this!!! lolWhen I read these books I tend to sympathize with everyone. I think I do with Jamie a tad bit more because he's my favorite character. But at times I'll even sympathize with BRJ (covers head as stones are thrown lol)
But I do have to disagree about Claire's feelings of jealousy. I still have to stick with the "what did you expect?" Because it's honestly what I would have expected had I been in her shoes. Not exactly that he had fathered other children but that he hadn't remained a monk.
I would have definitely been happy that he hadn't moved on from me because, well, I'd want him to be with me. But at the same time, the fact that he hadn't been able to do so, would make me sad. Catch 22 there.
I also can't compare the bond Jamie has with the mother of William to the bond he has with Claire. Sure he does have some feelings for her but they are so minuscule 'in comparison' to Claire that it wouldn't bother me. But I'm not the jealous type.
Did I also mention that I'm a saint? ;)
But feelings of jealousy aren't so much what I had a hard time relating to. It was feel betrayed. Those are 2 very different things.
Miranda wrote: "gertt wrote: "Jamie was a prisoner, he had no rights or freedoms, Geneva's lies could have sent him right back to prison or worse. Jamie did what he had to do under the circumstances." I personal..."
I actually found this part of the story quite believable. I think, the fact that she is actually a "little girl" and a spoiled brat to boot, is exactly why Jamie didn't try to figure out another way. When I say another way, I'm only really going with "reasoning with her." Because I can't think of another way out of this beyond that, can you?
But how can you reason with someone who's sight is so short? She's lived a sheltered life, has no idea what depths she could put Jamie through. I mean sure she gets it, she understands he could be sent back to prison, or worse, but she's a spoiled rich brat and just doesn't care. - And she doesn't care because she can't relate. She can't 'see' beyond her own nose.
Had Jamie been dealing with a mature worldly woman who came out with the same threat, I could see him handling it all differently.
Miranda wrote: "gertt wrote: "Jamie was a prisoner, he had no rights or freedoms, Geneva's lies could have sent him right back to prison or worse. Jamie did what he had to do under the circumstances." I personal..."
Well Miranda it does not sound ridiculous to me at all. Once again, your thoughts parallel mine. I think the main thing that bothers me about the Geneva storyline is how Jamie could be so affectionate with a person that has threatened his well being/life and that of his families. It just didn't make logical since and I couldn't buy into it. How can he make love to her knowing she would have his family arrested and possible killed. I just can't imagine that. The way DG writes those love scenes, Jamie is very affectionate with Geneva. And then to have the product of that encounter be his son truly gutted me. When I read about him and Mary McNabb, that didn't bother me, because it made since.....this encounter IMO does not.
For me too, it was an unrealistic storyline. Good point about the "safe day" comment, that's just one example of an inconsistency with this plot, and when you have too many inconsistencies, it weakens the realism of the story. I too don't see Outlander as a fairytale or even a great romance, the anxiety she creates in the story is what keeps me on my toes and fingers turning the pages. But the story needs to ring true for me to buy into it. This particular plot twist doesn't do that for me. It's dirty and seedy and tarnishes Jamie's character quite a bit (ok that does come off a little harsher than I meant it to....)
Mrsbooks wrote: "I'm so glad you asked this question. I've been missing my Outlander fix and now with the show not on we all seemed to have stopped talking about it. We needed this!!! lolWhen I read these books ..."
I actually think Claire says she didn't expect him to be a monk after all that time. I still stand behind the "she didn't except anything", she went in with an open mind. What I think she didn't expect was Jamie's dishonesty, and to me that is a very valid reason for her anger.
Funny, some comments keep referring to Claire's jealousy, but I never read her as being a jealous person. Jamie on the other hand is quite a different story....To me Claire leads more with her head and Jamie with his heart. Because of that, Claire comes off as a little dispassionate to me some times...a little wooden. And sometimes I find Jamie's hot temper bordering on the hypocritical.
You made some good points about Geneva's character, and not being able to reason with her. All the more reason to hate the fact that this girl is the mother of Jamie's son lol...
Diane wrote: "I understand your frustration with the story line because of your feelings toward the characters of Jamie and Claire. I think there were several factors that were involved in Jamie's decision to go ..."You are absolutely right about a 16/17 year old girl being considered an adult and eligible for marriage in the 18th century. My thing with Jamie is, I kind of read him as a renaissance man, a more forward thinker ahead of his time. To me, that is why Claire falls in love with him even though he is a man 200 hundred years before her time. So it seems a bit out of character for him to deflower a 17 year old girl, a week before her marriage, and take no precautions.
gertt wrote: "Jan wrote: "In regards to the "What was she expecting...." I don't know that she was expecting anything specifically. I think DG wrote Claire with a pretty open mind upon her return to find Jamie....."Geneva didn't also just threaten Jamie, she threatened Jenny - because she had intercepted a letter that Jamie wasn't supposed to have/get - so if she had wanted, she could have had Jenny arrested as well
I am not the jealous type at all irl either which is why I am so confused regarding my feelings about this whole thing. That’s why I feel somewhat embarrassed because I know that my feelings for Willie make no sense lol. My thoughts regarding the Jamie/Geneva thing on the other hand, do actually make sense to me lol, but I’m not trying to convince or make anyone agree with me.If he had been dealing with a mature woman I wouldn’t actually have such a problem with him sleeping with her. But this man who valued his own virginity so much, decides to deflower a young girl without even giving it a second thought?
As for another way out… I don’t think Diana would have had such a problem with it, she has quite an imagination :) For example I personally would have never guessed that John would ever have sex with Claire but seemingly impossible things do happen in Outlander. I have some ideas of my own but also I’m sure she could have come up with something if she wanted to.
My problem isn’t so much that Jamie accepts to fulfill Geneva’s wish. It’s just like I said earlier he doesn’t even try to find another solution? I would have never thought that the Jamie from the two previous books would have behaved in the same way. So him not trying to find a solution leads me to think that having sex with Geneva didn’t sound so bad and that’s why he said ok. And that makes me dislike Jamie. He is supposed to be this highly honorable man so for him to take advantage of a young girl is so out of character in my opinion (yes I think he takes advantage of her, not the other way around). Plus she asks him to stop and he doesn’t, which only makes me more sure that he indeed wanted to have sex with her for pleasure. Yes it was her idea, but she didn’t really know what that would really mean or what to expect while he did. He knew the risk of her getting pregnant, also knew she was to get married soon didn’t he think what would happen if her husband made a scandal because she wasn’t a virgin? And if people found out that it was Jamie, the jacobite traitor who deflowered her? Wouldn’t that cause him even more trouble? Also I don’t buy that much into the whole he tried to protect Jenny, sure Geneva could have hurt his family somehow but I don’t think that the risk was so great for him not to even consider other options. I cannot see any normalcy in this situation to be honest, true they married younger then but still Jamie isn’t like the other men from his time. Even if one argues that he is an 18th century man, then how does this honorable man take the virginity of another man’s future wife, I wouldn’t think Jamie would show such disrespect. I don’t know, I guess I expected more from him, from the Jamie I got to know in Outlander and DIA.
If he had tried to find another solution and failed, I think I would have a different opinion about this whole thing. Of course the outcome would be the same, they would have sex and Willie would be conceived. But him trying to resist would make a huge difference for me, it would at least seem that he was conflicted about the whole thing but then again Diana isn’t writing these books for me specifically lol.
About the “what did you expect?”, I don’t think Claire expected him to remain a monk, but what she didn’t expect was for him to be dishonest with her. After the whole Laoghaire thing she even says “And I don’t think you’ve been a monk, either—I never did!” and then tells him that she is upset because he lied to her, he let her believe that there was no one in his life. It’s the same with William, he hid a very important thing from her and again she found out through someone else in a not so pleasant way. If you ask me she didn’t react as badly as I expected her to, she forgives him pretty quickly for hiding such important events in his life. Claire doesn’t seem like a jealous type in general tbh, just look how she reacts after she finds out he had slept several times with naked Indian women lol.
This came out way longer than I planned I’m sorry. Jan I’m glad that there’s at least someone who shares my thoughts, we're definitely a small minority lol :). (Also forgive me for any mistakes, English isn’t my first language)
(Also forgive me for any mistakes, English isn’t my first language) For English not being your first language you write very well and are able to clearly get your idea's across. I'd say better than many native English speakers.
No matter is people agree with your point or not I appreciate the respectful, well thought out approach which shows your passion for the series.
Thank you for saying that Diane, it really means a lot to me :) I try to do my best, but sometimes when writing these longer posts I can get carried away, start translating my thoughts too literally from my mother tongue into English and perhaps not make sense as a result. I'm also really enjoying this discussion, I really like reading all of your opinions. Though I might not agree with all of them, I actually expect people to think differently from me. I don't think my feelings (mostly about Willie) are normal or logical, but I can't deny or control them so at least I can be honest about them (even though I do feel a little ridiculous I'm not going to lie lol).
Miranda wrote: "I am not the jealous type at all irl either which is why I am so confused regarding my feelings about this whole thing. That’s why I feel somewhat embarrassed because I know that my feelings for Wi..."English isn't your first language??!!Good grief! I would never have guessed that. You put me to shame.... I could never write so well in a second language. Where are you from?
Me- USA east coast.
I'm so glad you all are interested in having this discussion, I have been enjoying it greatly and think everyone's comments have been very thoughtful and well put! I can see truth in everyone's opinions, even though I may not agree with all of them:)
Again, Miranda, I agree and feel the same way you do. I even agree on feeling ridiculous for feeling this way. I really love Jamie's character and truly want happiness for him in this story, maybe that's the problem. I care too much, and thus when he does something that goes against his best character trait (IMO), I feel a since of betrayal on behalf of his character.
I also remember a passage of the story where Jamie is explaining to Claire why he was still a virgin on his wedding night. He said something to the effect of, "My father told me if you're not ready to handle the burden of taking on the responsibility of a wife and child, don't burden a woman with your lustful needs" (paraphrasing here) He told Claire he was honoring his father advice. That's the Jamie I fell in love with in the first book.....
Miranda- I actually get a little irritated with Claire at the lack of emotional reaction to some of the things Jamie and others do to her. Like you said, she doesn't even stay upset after hearing about Willie from John. She doesn't even confront Jamie on why she had to find out such personal information about Jamie from a man she doesn't even know. Once again Jamie has hidden something personal and important about his past from her, not trusting her to know the truth. That has got to hurt, but yet she doesn't even react to it. She even tells him he is a honest man. What? How is that when he keeps such important things about himself from her....again.
I've been reading Gertt's comments and find myself nodding in agreement. Jamie was trying to live life the best he could under his horrible circumstances. Yes, Claire didn't have a bed of roses back with Frank, but she had the freedom to pursue other outlets. Jamie had all the responsibility of the people at Lollybroch, the grief of what he thought was his lost life, and nothing bright in his future. Geneva was a spoiled ass, but she did hold the future of the Jenny and the homestead in her hands. I think Jamie realized she didn't understand the full implications of her blackmail. Maybe he felt sorry for her going into a loveless marriage with some horrible old guy. What ever the reasons, it happened, it opened the storyline into interesting developments, as evidenced by this whole discussion. Like life, sometimes we don't know why something happened, you just have to roll with it.
Gertt- You've raised some interesting thoughts here....
First, can't agree on the Claire and John thing being seedier than Jamie and Geneva. Jamie committed adultery out right with Geneva. Claire and John were actually married, thinking Jamie dead. Don't get me wrong, reading about John and Claire was not one of the high points in the story for me, but I don't see the dishonor in it like I do with Jamie and Geneva.
Your " somebody had to do it" theory made me chuckle
Sticking with that train of thought though..... If I had the ability to choose (from the candidates you listed), I would say Mary McNabb... She was nice to Jamie and understood how much he loved and missed his wife. Also, she was Scottish and Jamie would have been able to be a part of raising his son. That encounter IMO was less dishonorable than his encounter with Geneva. Maybe he would have been compelled to marry Mary, but then at least he wouldn't have had to deal with the whole Longhair fiasco. Just some crazy thoughts lol...
Jan wrote: "Miranda wrote: "I am not the jealous type at all irl either which is why I am so confused regarding my feelings about this whole thing. That’s why I feel somewhat embarrassed because I know that my..."Oh Jan thank you so much! *blushes* I'm actually from the Balkans :)
I know my English isn't bad, but sometimes I just get paranoid that I'll make a mistake, say something that doesn't make sense or doesn't sound natural in English and that people will think that I'm "stupid" (this isn't the right word for what I'm trying to say but I can't think of a more appropriate one atm).
But yes I think I have the same problem, I care too much about Jamie so when does something that is so unlike him I have a hard time accepting it and I tend to get very upset with him and myself lol. I also agree about Claire (is there anything I don't agree about with you? :), I too get irritated with the way she reacts in some situations. Sometimes I have a hard time understanding her for this very reason, her reactions to some things really confuse me tbh.
gertt wrote: "Why should Jamie have been a monk, Claire wasn't. "
Lol who said that Jamie should've been a monk? I never said that he wasn't allowed to have sex. My problem is Geneva and the whole situation. If he was so desperate for sex he should have found someone else, a little immature girl who doesn't really understand what sex is isn't really the best choice in my opinion. She didn't even know what he meant by "safe day" she was really ignorant regarding sex so I can't see this encounter as a normal sexual intercourse between two adults who know what they're getting themselves into. If she was ignorant, Jamie wasn't and that's why I'm holding him accountable, because I expected better from him.
"He didn't stop because he couldn't." This sounds so so wrong to me, I'm sorry but it sounds like one of those excuses rapists use. Of course he could have stopped, he isn't an animal. No means no and stop means stop. If someone asks you to stop, you stop in that moment, I don't care if you're one second close to coming, especially if a virgin is involved, she might be in pain, she might have changed her mind or whatever, the reason isn't important you stop because when you're having sex consent is the thing that should matter the most. To be honest, I try not to think of this scene often because I start to really really dislike Jamie...
Gertt-I think you misunderstand my feelings about Jamie in regards to having sex during his 20 year separation from Claire. I do not have a problem it. I'm not that illogical in my thinking lol. Not only that, I feel very similarly as you do about the John/Claire hookup- drunken sex was ridiculous ; but that's a whole other ball of wax.
Mary McNabb's offer was an act of kindness to Jamie. Geneva's was an act of blackmail. Mary was a nice person, Geneva was not... Mary was a grown woman who had more scruples, Geneva was an immature narcissus. If it was my choice I would rather Mary be Willie's mom.
gertt wrote: "Miranda wrote: " a little immature girl who doesn't really understand what sex is isn't really the best choice in my opinion. She didn't even know what he meant by "safe day" she was really ignoran..."Ah yes, getting pregnant "before" the marriage turned out very well indeed lol. Her husband never even ended up having sex with her. She doesn't understand what he means by saying a "safe day", she is startled when she sees his erect penis "because they usually don't look like that", he has to tell her that "it doesna get any bigger" because she doesn't know, she thinks sex is "like the horses" (I HATE DIANA FOR THIS), she asks him if it's going to hurt, etc etc all this makes me think she might have heard some things about sex but doesn't really know much about it. I don't think Geneva really realized what she was doing, she was a reckless immature girl, she was a spoiled brat who thought she is entitled to have anything and everything she wants without thinking of the consequences. And just because Jamie was attractive doesn't make this whole thing ok in my eyes.
Jamie was confined to the estate... and of course, Geneva was the only woman there? lol. If he really wanted sex, I'm sure he could have found a willing maid or some kind of servant. Even Geneva asks him if he's slept with her maid Betty. So.... no, Geneva wasn't his only option.
gertt wrote: "Diane wrote: ".It shows strong character for him to bond with Willie and be there as long as he could even though he knew Willie would be brought up with the best of care. I am also glad he got to ..."I agree and what I meant was basically Bree didn't take the place in Jamie's heart the belonged to William and William didn't take the part if his heart that belonged to Bree. He loved them both and had a right and duty to love them both. Bree's place was not reduced because of the existence of William.
gertt wrote: "...and it made the story interesting."Well... that's a matter of opinion :)
I personally did not enjoy this part of the story, did not find it interesting in the slightest... It actually turned me off quite a bit. But like I said before I am aware that Diana isn't writing these books for me so my wishes and preferences aren't important lol. But I'm glad that while I can't appreciate the Geneva/Willie part of the books, others can. :)
gertt wrote: "Miranda wrote: personally did not enjoy this part of the story, did not find it interesting in the slightest"..."I didn't say that Jamie and Geneva having sex was interesting, I said the 'result..."
Lol, I wasn't referring to the sex scene only either, I meant the whole thing, the encounter and the result.
I don't like Willie and I don't think I ever will, Lord John on the other hand I do like. I don't agree that without Willie John would have to be eliminated from the books. John and Jamie met long before Willie came into the story, then they met again in Ardsmuir so if Diana wanted she could have found a way to include him in the story without Willie. But that's not what she wanted and that's ok.
"Would eliminating Jamie's son, or his relationship with LJ, make a better story?" Eliminating Jamie's son would make a better story for me personally. And I believe that there are other ways in which Diana could have shown that Jamie isn't perfect. But what's done, is done. I have accepted it, but I am not obligated to like every plot or character she includes in these books though.
*I'm sorry I had to edit this post, because I wrote it before you edited yours.
gertt wrote: "Of course you don't have to like every character, nobody does; there's a few I don't or didn't like, but I still think they made the story worth reading, even BJR made the story interesting and I d..."Obviously that's why Diana made them meet again. But it doesn't mean that she couldn't have used their meeting for another purpose, it's fiction after all. Just like Willie is their bond, another thing could have also been their bond.
Jamie being sent to America sounds much more interesting to me than being sent to Hellwater and everything that happened there tbh. But I realize that not everyone has my taste.
About me loving William one day... who knows, they say never say never :) But considering the fact I can't even finish Echo just because of him.. I doubt it lol
gertt wrote:"Can I ask, what is it that you dislike so much about William?"
You can ask... but I don't think I can answer :)
I can't even explain why I dislike him, it's more of a feeling thing, I don't have a concrete rational reason. I just don't like him as Jamie's son, also the way in which he was conceived is very out of character for Jamie imo. And the fact that I find William a very boring and annoying character doesn't help either lol.
It's interesting because even though there have been characters I've disliked or even hated like BJR, I do see them as an interesting part of the story and I wouldn't want to eliminate them either. But I dislike Willie in a very very different way (and I can't put it into words to explain better).
I just had a thought, how do you all think Jamie would have reacted if Claire had a child with another man? For example, after she was raped he wanted to make sure that they have sex so that there was at least some doubt if they later found out she was pregnant. Yes, he did that for her own benefit too, but also for his.
Do you think Jamie would be as accepting of Claire's child as she has been with Willie? Regardless if that child was result of the rape or say Frank's for example (if he wasn't sterile).
gertt wrote: "Miranda wrote: personally did not enjoy this part of the story, did not find it interesting in the slightest"..."I didn't say that Jamie and Geneva having sex was interesting, I said the 'result..."
Actually what you said Gertt, was that a similar storyline with Jamie and Mary McNabb would not be as interesting, which implies you do think the storyline with Jamie and Geneva is. That being said, I make no argument with the fact the Willie storyline is interesting....it is. But that does not change the fact that it is a storyline that paints a negative picture of Jamie IMO. His action are dishonorable, more so than any other scenario that has been mentioned thus far (I'm talking about the other potential hookups with other female characters that you mentioned). Jamie's actions in this storyline are out of character IMO, and not consistent with his behavior from the first two books. Also, it's a storyline that does make me sad, for the reasons I stated about Jamie and Claire's history with having children. Does that mean I want it stricken from the story? No.
Now here is where we agree, conflict is what has made this story interesting and keeps it going; I have said as much. But, other things that keep a story going are consistency in character behavior, logical resolution, and a balance of conflict and resolve.
How do you know a storyline about Mary McNabb would be boring? You have no idea what DG could come up with there. I only mentioned that whole scenario because you brought it up; I thought is was an interesting concept lol.
Also, I don't think omitting LJ or Willie would eliminate any of these books. John has his own book series, but Outlander has always been predominately about Jamie and Claire. The amount of time given to John or Willie has been a small piece of the story so far, and DG is a very creative writer who knows what else she could come up with.
Yes, Jamie is an excellent hero, and for the reasons you stated. As I said in earlier post, the complexity of these characters is what makes the story interesting and the readers invested in them. They are all flawed in some way to me. Just because I am unhappy with Jamie's actions and saddened by the results of said actions, does not mean I am no longer enjoying reading this story. You said it yourself, conflict is what keeps it interesting..
Miranda wrote: "gertt wrote:"Can I ask, what is it that you dislike so much about William?"
You can ask... but I don't think I can answer :)
I can't even explain why I dislike him, it's more of a feeling thin..."
I've wondered the same thing Miranda. What would Jamie do....... Jamie even has admitted to being a jealous person where Claire is not (according to him MOHB). I think he may have a harder time excepting it at first, but then he would come to terms with it, out of his love for Claire.
Honestly Miranda, I find it very interesting how similar we feel about this subject. Rationally, I don't begrudge Jamie for having sex with another woman during his 20 year separation from Claire; that would be silly. Emotionally, it makes me sad for the reasons I have already stated. It's just the way in which it happened, that makes me feel it is a betrayal: a betrayal to Jamie's character mainly, but also to his great love for Claire. I know this is just me, but having him father a child with Geneva the way he did diminishes Brianna's conception, which was out of love IMO.
gertt wrote: "Miranda wrote: " Eliminating Jamie's son would make a better story for me personally...."Can I ask, what is it that you dislike so much about William?
I only ask because with all the unseemly ch..."
I'll take a crack it this Gertt. You raise another interesting thought. Why is it Willie, and not other characters that are actually dastardly and evil. I think Miranda may have actually answered this already. Willie is Jamie's son by another woman other than Claire. He is a constant reminder of that encounter, an intimate connection Jamie has with another woman other than Claire. DG spends the course of two long books building up this great love between Jamie and Claire, for me, I bought it hook line and sinker. She throws in some great hardships and twist, but Claire and Jamie persevere . Then she turns this romance into a romantic tragedy by separating them for twenty years (a life time for some). Willie is also a reminder of what could have been between Jamie and Claire, but will never be.....
Yes, Jamie and Claire have quite the extended family. But that's not the same as having the ability to conceive a child with your beloved and have the joy of watching them grow together.
Well said jan. it angered me so when Jamie had William with Geneva. I was kinda jealous if that makes sense. also, didn't Jamie and Geneva have sex multiple times that one night? I am pretty sure the did he said something like the night was still young after the first time and he stayed till dawn.
Vanessa Eden wrote: "Well said jan. it angered me so when Jamie had William with Geneva. I was kinda jealous if that makes sense. also, didn't Jamie and Geneva have sex multiple times that one night? I am pretty sure ..."Hi Vanessa,
Yes, there is a small group of us here that feel as you do. Once I bought into Jamie and Claire's great love, I became protective of it in some weird way lol. It seems as though anything that may appear like a threat puts me in emotional over drive lol.
You bring up something else that never made since to me (sorry nick picking here), virgins cant typically handle having sex more than once during their first encounter; too much pain. It does read that Jamie and Geneva have sex multiple times- not realistic. It also makes you question Jamie's motives- he took her virginity like she asked, as was the deal. If he had lived up to his end of the bargain why stay for more? Unless he wanted to..... Maybe blackmail didn't play as big a part as thought......
I'm glad someone agrees with me.
Jan wrote: "I've wondered the same thing Miranda. What would Jamie do....... Jamie even has admitted to being a jealous person where Claire is not..."I agree Jan, that's what I thought too. I don't doubt that Jamie would accept Claire's child from another man, but I do think he'd struggle more than her at least in the beginning. Like you said previously, Jamie is led more by his heart in comparison to Claire who is led by her head, so I think it would be harder for him to look at a child who will be a constant reminder to him that Claire shared such an intimate connection with someone who isn't him, especially if it was with someone Claire had had sex willingly.
Yes, that's it Jan, I view Willie as a betrayal in more ways than one. The problem isn't that Jamie sleeps with another woman, it's the way it all happens. As I said before, all of this just takes some shine away from Jamie and Claire's great love for me personally.
The fact that William is a boy doesn't help either tbh. To most people that probably doesn't make any difference but to me it does. It was made clear that both times Claire was pregnant, Jamie was hoping for a boy. And I felt he was a little disappointed both times that they were girls. So when he gets his son from another woman, a woman he didn't even love or care for... Idk, I just don't like it as ridiculous as it may sound.
Miranda wrote: "gertt wrote: "Of course you don't have to like every character, nobody does; there's a few I don't or didn't like, but I still think they made the story worth reading, even BJR made the story inter..."I too thought Jamie going to America would be interesting lol.
I was thinking about how I feel for the other characters in the book, and why Jem does not effect me the way William does. When first reading about Jem's conception, the reader is lead to believe there is a good chance he could be Bonnet's; that he could be the child of someone other than Rodger. Yet I didn't resent Jem at all. Why?
Like William, he could have been the child of someone else. I think, for me though, it's all in how that child came to be. Jem's conception may have been from an act of rape. It was an act Brianna didn't want, it was forced onto her...violently. Therefore, I don't see it as a betrayal to her love for Rodger. She couldn't help it or stop it. Also, her actions over the situation didn't betray her character either, she wanted no part in what was happening to her.
William's conception was different.... The steps that took place that solidified his birth were dishonorable on both sides; betrayal, deception, blackmail, dishonor, and adultery all played a part in it. And even so, both parties enjoyed themselves (Miranda, you even made some good points on this subject that I hadn't even thought of). Therefore, to me Jamie's actions during this turn of events were a betrayal to his character. So, for me, William represents that betrayal, along with the tragedy of Claire and Jamie's history of having children.
I think that's the best way I can describe why William's storyline bothers me even up to this point in the story.
That being said, I am not sharing my thoughts or expressing my feelings because I want DG to rewrite her books lol. I'm doing it to try and make since out of why I felt the way I did upon reading them, because some of my emotions shocked me a bit. Why would I care so much about these fictitious people that only exist on the page lol. And it's nice to have others to ponder these thoughts with; so thank you all:)
That being said, there were times that I felt like hurling my ipad across the room (reading on kindle AP) and walking away. I contribute this to her talented writing as well. She makes you care so much for the characters, it leaves you breathless when she writes about something that befalls them, or something that may seem out of character for them. This happened to me several times while reading the books, and I wanted to start a discussion about it to see if anyone else had a similar reaction.
Another thing I've notice after being introduced to the Outlander world, is there are many differing opinions amongst the fans of these books. Personally, I fine that fascinating. So I invite all who are interested to join me in this discussion.