Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion

This is the thread for the buddy read of Orlando by Virginia Woolf.

Enjoy.

I watched the 1992 movie when it first went to VHS. But have forgotten it. Good to read here with my reading friends.

Is this buddy read open to all in the group? If yes, when does it start and finish?

Anne wrote: "Is this buddy read open to all in the group? If yes, when does it start and finish?"

The buddy read is open to all. I believe some of the members have already started reading. Mostly a December read, but the thread will stay open in case you get a slow start.

Katy wrote: "Anne wrote: "Is this buddy read open to all in the group? If yes, when does it start and finish?"

The buddy read is open to all. I believe some of the members have already started reading. Mostly ..."

Thank you, Katy!

Anne wrote: "Katy wrote: "Anne wrote: "Is this buddy read open to all in the group? If yes, when does it start and finish?"

The buddy read is open to all. I believe some of the members have already started rea..."

Hi Anne. While one person has started to read, most of us will start the 15th. Look forward tk reading with you again!

Thank you, Cynda! I look forward to reading with you as well. I'll start on the 15th.

First I will listen to abridged audiobook. It is published by Naxos which is my go-to for audiobooks on Hoopla e-services. This time an abridged version. Afterwards in a day or two I will listen to the full-length audio, planning to read along with. The audio and visual together get into my brain better I find.

Listened the abbreviated version.
My first impressions are of
Time
Romance
Houses
Social Notes (not quite commentary in abbreviated version)
Birds
Pearls

I read this novel decades ago, probably about the time of the movie release and also watched the movie. I was mostly perplexed. Now I am mostly charmed. The narration of the audiobook helped me to be charmed.

On to the full-length audio in a couple of days.

I will probably start reading tonight. It's my first time reading any Virginia Woolf, let's see how it goes!

Having read that VW wrote Orlando in response to Sackville-West's long poem The Land, I have bought a Kindle copy. The price is negligilbe, the formatting poor, the basic poetry coming through. I am reading over, not studying The Land so that I find a deeper meaning or more surer understanding--either way-- of Orlando. I am enjoying the tangents. 😀

So I have visited The Land by Vita Sackville West. There I found that the narrator seeks to live unbound, outside of convention, to have essence of self recognized, yet seeking personal bond. There is more, bit too much for me to read and process in a day or two or even seven. And probably I have read quite enough to ne more sure of what is indicated in Orlando.

Jesus wrote: "I will probably start reading tonight. It's my first time reading any Virginia Woolf, let's see how it goes!"

Jesus have you been able to start the novel? Looking forward to some discussion.

Some general comments after reading Chapter 1.
This is love letter to Sackville West Vita (Victoria Mary). I am feeling very awkward looking to private intimate understanding of another's lover. Yet here we are, and here I continue.

What makes possible my continued reading is that the truths and understandings being told are fantastical, outside of time, surreal.

Some themes: Options (possible and taken), regality, society, coldness, passion, abandonment.

Yes Cynda! I just finished chapter two. I am liking it very much so far, but I find it not a light read. Several times I have to reread something to make sure I understood it correctly. I knew almost nothing regarding Virginia Woolf so thank you for your comment about Vita Sackville West, it is helping me to see the book in a different light.

Jesus, I am student of literature too. . . . What did you find in Chapter 2 that might help me and others? Your help would be appreciated.

planning to start this tomorrow. looking forward - this is my first virginia woolf book!

Just started it today. First time read for me.

BBC Radio 4 have a long running series, Gloomsbury, taking the michael out of the set, with Alison Steadman as Ginny Fox and Miriam Margolyes as Vera Sackcloth-Vest. So its an irreverent angle on their relationship, played as a farce. I have no idea if it’s available outside of the UK; BBC funding is weird even to us.

Orlando is the first fiction I read of Virginia Woolf. I would like to join in with a reread if I can find some quality time after Christmas. Meanwhile, I'm following the discussion here and enjoying all your comments.

Cynda, I really liked everything she says in chapter 2 about literature and writing. Since I don't want to revel anything in case someone hasn't read this chapter yet, SPOILER AlERT for chapter 2.


In this chapter I feel bad for Orlando. The Russian princess has abandoned him and he decides to throw himself into literature instead. And he even decides to give people another chance in order to be able to discuss literature with a writer. He ends up inviting Nicholas Greene to his home but in the end Greene writes a book ridiculing Orlando. Apart from this I really liked that from this point onwards he decides to stop writing for the critics and write for himself instead, which I think it's how everything should be done.

Hello Jackie, Sam, PinkieBrown, and Piyangie. Thank you fir joining in with Jesus and me.

@ Jesus, yes, thank you for your concern. Just know that your participation, when you feel comfortable, is welcomed.

@PinkieBrown. Gloomsbury sounds delightful. Here is a link that may provide some insight. link

With Christmas over. I can now re-focus on the fantastical Orlando.

As I r e-read Chapter One, I am reminded of The Passionate Shepherd to His Love by Christopher Marlowe. Link to Poem_/a>

As I re-read Chapter One, I am mentally adding details to the Frost Festival scene. I first knew of the Frost Festival when I read The Little Ice Age: How Climate Made History 1300-1850 by Brian Fagan. There are various You Tube videos describing the little ice age/the Frost Festival.

Reading Chapter Two.
As a reader of history, I appreciate how easily Viriginia Woolf incorporates the history if England with her stylized, fantastical biography of Vita Sackville-West.

Here in Chapter 2, Orlando's papers show signs having been scorched--sime destroyed--by the Great Fire of London. Does anyone here have a favorite something--poem, adage, song, video, book of The Great Fire? Being that I live in Texas, far from London, I do not know too much.

Cynda wrote: "With Christmas over. I can now re-focus on the fantastical Orlando.

As I r e-read Chapter One, I am reminded of The Passionate Shepherd to His Love by [author:Christopher Marlowe|1..."

A beautiful poem, Cynda. Thanks, for sharing. I'll probably start reading tonight.

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say about Orlando.
. . . . .
Reading Chapter 2
A couple of years ago this group read Don Quixote by Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra. Did you all see the narrator of Orlando the literary work describes Orlando the character in a way similar to how the narrator of Don Quixote the literary work describes Don Quixote the knight errant? Both live in alternate realities inapproriate for gentlemen of their time and place. Do you think Orlando might be a bit quixotic/like Don Quixote?

Cynda wrote: "Looking forward to hearing what you have to say about Orlando.
. . . . .
Reading Chapter 2
A couple of years ago this group read Don Quixote by [author:Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra|403..."

I can see your comparison. I also thought of Candide and The History of Rasselas.

Yes Sam. I had forgotten about Candide. I had to go back to read my GR review of Candide. In my review, I say that Candide satirizes through misdirection. Seems to me that the discussion of Orlando's lack of memories or incorrect memories as being a way of satirizing through misdirection.

Unfortunately I do not remember ever reading The History of Rasselas though my memory's ear pricks at the the title.

Reading Chapter 3

Great writers can come up with great images and symbols. Here: The Santa Sophia/Hagia Sophia. Already the symbols/images indicate the gender dichotomy within Orlando. This is a beginning-place discussion of the Hagia Sophia. There are other more deeply informative videos on YouTube. The best I have seen is the one that NOVA on PBS aired some years ago.

What were some of the dichotomies that stood out to you?

hey all, I just found this thread and good to know this thread will stay open a bit longer, I can start in a couple of days - I hope that's ok :)

Inkspill wrote: "hey all, I just found this thread and good to know this thread will stay open a bit longer, I can start in a couple of days - I hope that's ok :)"

Yes. Welcome Inkspill. I will get busier at end of 2020 and begininng of2021, not sure exactly when, so I maybe reading for a week or so longer. But I will stay updated on when people post here.

Piyangie wrote: "Orlando is the first fiction I read of Virginia Woolf. I would like to join in with a reread if I can find some quality time after Christmas. Meanwhile, I'm following the discussion he..."

Join us when you can Piyangie. Sometimes your comments help me to think more on a topic.

PinkieBrown wrote: "BBC Radio 4 have a long running series, Gloomsbury, taking the michael out of the set, with Alison Steadman as Ginny Fox and Miriam Margolyes as Vera Sackcloth-Vest. So its an irreverent angle on t..."


I found a link not to the program but to a website about the program, posted it somewhere on Goodreads. Apparently not here. I will look again and edit this message in next day or so.

I've read the first two chapters and surprised at how fun it was to read this. I didn't remember it being fun to read. I never thought the word "fun" could associate with a work by Virginia Wolf. :)

In chapter 1, we read of Orlando's first disappointment in love. Sasha is the first woman who invokes in Orlando, real feelings of love and desire. Her treachery and deception was an immense blow to him. This is Virginia's artistic interpretation of the relationship between Vita Sackville-West and Violet Trefusis.

In Chapter 2, after having returned to his estate, following his disgrace from Royal Court, Orlando develops an intense passion to publish his literary works. But self-doubt nags at him, so he invites a poet to consult on his literary endeavors. Here too, Orlando is disappointed. The poet ridicules Orlando's poetic efforts by writing a work himself on Orlando. This treachery is too much for Orlando who decides only to write for himself and never to publish.
Virginia has been constantly nagged by self-doubt in his writing, as was portrayed also by Lily Briscoe in To the Lighthouse, and I was thinking, although Orlando was more or less about Vita Sackville-West, here, for a moment, whether Orlando represented Virginia, herself.

Piyangie wrote: "I've read the first two chapters and surprised at how fun it was to read this. I didn't remember it being fun to read. I never thought the word "fun" could associate with a work by Virginia Wolf. :..."

I was also surprised when I discovrd the humour in her works, it's understated and easy to miss :)

I finished chapter 5 and enjoyed Virginia's description of the social changes that took place in the 19th century. It's such a satirical account. :) She has drawn some subtle comparisons between the 19th century and the preceding three centuries, starting from the 16th century, where the story of Orlando began.

I have just finished reading chapter 4.

@ Piyangie, I too have caught glimpses of Virginia Woolf herself :-)

In this chapter 4, the humor is.mostly about light and dark, the hidden and the revealed. As a Modernist, VW uses imagery to convey meaning. Here I found clearest to me: the widely spaced lamp posts and the widely spaced light beams from the lighthouse.

@ I agree with you Inkspill that most VW's humor is largely subtle. I was pages into Chapter 4, maybe 10 before I hit upon the theme of Pretensions and Illusions. More to the chapter, yes, but these two are a large part.

More about Chapter 5.
I seem to have difficulty recognizing mock-heroic descriptions. When reading Chapter 4 there is reference made to The Rape of the Lock, I finally understood what I am readjng, what we are reading, is mock-heroics. The narrator is poking gentle fun of the character, and thecharacter thinks too highly of self.

Some of us read Pickwick Papers. In that book, Mr Pickwick and his friends start out as mock-heroes and eventually become heroes. . . . Which what some of us were said we were remknded if Don Quixote and Candide.

I have finished the novel and I was awaiting the others before adding spoiling remarks, though during this wait, I have been mulling what I've read since the novel does not invite simple explanation.

The satiric element is one of the joys of the novel, but I don't find it a mean spirited or preachily, corrective satire; I see it as a light, almost conversational satire, like making fun of things as one would with a friend, which endears the narrator/biographer to us.

As I was reading, I kept wondering what world Woolf was depicting in the novel. It had varied elements that were both real and imaginary, and I kept trying to fathom the significance of that. Having finished I think it is still a very complex question, but the sixth chapter helps to clarify things. My answer agrees incorporates the autobiographical and real word history remarks of Piyangie and the literary remarks of Cynda. I think the setting is a an imagined world of the author's that combines the real and literary historical worlds and changes in perspective like variations would in the perspective of the author . If anyone has a shared or conflicting view, I would be interested.

The great amount of Woolf scholarship already done and available, would be nice to pursue for someone with more interest and time, but I will take delight mostly in what I can extract from just the text, with an exception---
I wanted to know to whom Woolf referred with the character of Nick Greene. In researching, I was disappointed, because I was not familiar with the work of the name most mentioned. (That hardly ruins the fun because Woolf's parody has universal application) I did find an essay on the presumed source which might be interesting, although I can't vouch for accuracy.

https://www.berfrois.com/2014/03/wool...

I've finally got my copy - yeyyy - and am amazed by the context the intro gives. I only knew very little about Vita Sackville-West from background reading to other works by Virginia Woolf.

Yeyy Inkspill :-)

I have slowed down reading so that you would not be reading completely alone. And someone may join in later. (I was recently pleasantly surprised during the read of a Winter's Tale.)

Sam, what has helped me more than most thing when reading unfamiliar works is reading from

Oxford, either Oxford World Classics or Oxford Classics. The difference matter to readers more experienced than me. I will be happy for either.

Barnes and Noble Editions.

If not those, then I make do with Penguin Editions.

Any of these books would identify Nick Greene.

(This year I plan to read 200 books, so I am limiting book purchases in a serious way, often sticking what I can find at no extra cost or almost no cost.)

Nick Greene Orlando invites Nick Greene to his country home to talk about Orlando's poetry, but the snide and low-class Greene is more interested in talking about himself and the death of literature. Nearly 300 years later, Greene has risen through social and academic circles to become a man of importance and wealth. He despises the popular literature of the time and helps Orlando publish "The Oak Tree" because it has no trace of "the modern spirit.". (copied from Course Hero which I can get some quick study guide info. I would rather use a study guide than not know the basics. It's my way of avoiding an avoidable stuggle, time to time)

Also--this was helpful--I looked over Vita Sackville-West's long poem " The Land" in which I found some characteristics that kinda sorta match up with Orlando's character.

Maybe this will help. Hope so.

After I finish reading, I want to go back through in February or March when the work Orlando has worked into some of my imagination. I want to go back through to see if I can make connections between the 6 chapters. I can good enough connection within each chapter, just sticking to some main themes, but I want to find some flow and connection between chapters.

Cynda wrote: "Yeyy Inkspill :-)

I have slowed down reading so that you would not be reading completely alone. And someone may join in later. (I was recently pleasantly surprised during the read of a Winter's Ta..."

hey Cynda, hi :)

This is lovely of you but pls don't fall behind as I'm trying to catch-up.

Your mention of Winter's Tale (which I've not read but added to my list) is interesting as Virginia Woolf frequently references Shakespeare or his work in her novels and writings.

In my ed. the notes to the character Orlando comes across in the first chapter, the "fat, rather shabby man" with "a tankard beside him and a paper in front of him" says:

"VW's index indicates that this figure is Shakespeare. The 'globed' eyes allude to the name of his playhouse."

isn't that interesting :)

@ Inkspill, okay, thanks, I will continue on through Orlando then. . . . I will have topay attention as I have not noticed that VW references the Winter's Tale. I would like to note those references so I could come to a deeper undrrstanding of A Winter's Tale.

@ Sam, I too see the satire as mostly working through new ideas, being conversational or musing, much in the way I think you are saying. Orlando might call it "losing some illusions" as she says that twice while musing in Chapter 4.

Caveat. There is one instance of biting humor I have seen in Chapter 4. The narrator bites on poet Rennyson or poetry or salon-attending folk, or all of the above. I think all of the above. The quote only makes sense in context (as does much if what is said in Orlando:

From the foregoing passage, however, it must not be supposed that genius (but the disease is now stamped out in the British Isles, the late Lord Tennyson, it is said, being the last person to suffer from it.) Is constantly alight, for then we should see ecerything plain and perhaps should be scorched to death on the process.

The narrator thinks that the English are none too intelligent and that may be better not to be too intelligent. That is my understanding. Please feel free to say how you read that passage.

Chapter 5.
Orlando is seeming more satiric--at moments biting. But what stays with me are the musing or truths/experiences I understand.

Marriage--or least among the elite--takes on new meaning as companionable marriages and ideal womanhood become commonplace. Orlando is not sure what to make of it.

But the narrator does. As this chapter opens up, Orlando drives by a pile of rubbish--the stuff of middle-class domesticity. That bit of satire did not read as biting satire. It is upon reflection that I can see definite, yet not quite biting satire. I am beginning to think the who,e of Orlando be like this where the full measure of satire is easy for me to miss. I will have to do a fast reread early this year.

Cynda wrote: "@ Inkspill, okay, thanks, I will continue on through Orlando then. . . . I will have topay attention as I have not noticed that VW references the Winter's Tale. I would like to note those reference..."

Cynda, hi, re: A Winter’s Tale, Shakespeare & VW’s Orlando, there’s been a misunderstanding :)

I’ve read the first two chapters of Orlando where I’ve found a few references to Shakespeare (but not A Winter’s Tale), the example I posted in post 45 is just one, which I too would have missed if it wasn’t for the ed I was reading.

On a general note, I’m finding VW mentions Shakespeare fairly frequently in her novels and works.

Thank you for clarifying those references to Shakespeare for me, Inkspill. Yes, I see references to Shakespeare here in Orlando.

Chapter 6
So much has changed for Orlando. Genders. Houses. Writing. Population. Technology. Loves. Now more than ever Orlando seems to need to define Life. But all she can find is change and metamorphosis.

This completes my notes for this book. I will have to retirn to reread Orlando to discover more and understand better.