Catholic Thought discussion

Book VII
Subchapters
- The Select Gods and Their Functions
- The Absurdities and Inconsistencies in Varro’s Account of the Select Gods
- The Indecent Acts Attributed to the Select Gods
- Varro’s Naturalistic Interpretations of the Select Gods
- The Naturalistic Interpretation of Janus
- How Are the Naturalistic Interpretations of Jupiter and Janus to be Reconciled?
- Jupiter’s Titles and Tasks
- Jupiter and the Other Select Gods
- The Cases of Mercury and Mars
- The Astral Interpretation of the Select Gods
- The Select Gods Interpreted as the World and Its Parts
- Varro’s Interpretation of Saturn
- The Rites of Cere and Liber
- Neptune’s Wives, Salacia and Venilia
- The World’s Souls and Its Permeation of the World
- The Rites of Tellus/the Great Mother
- Worship of the Select Gods Brings neither Purity in this Life nor Happiness in Life after Death
- To Worship the World or the World’s Soul Is not to Worship the True God
- Further Inconsistencies in Varro’s Naturalistic Interpretations of the Select Gods
- The One True God and His Works
- Numa’s Explanations of the Rites that He Instituted

I know, I'm a week late with the start of this Book. It was a long Book and I had limited time this past week. I apalogize, but it does look like we will be off schedule. I wonder if the upcioming Books are just as long? Well, we will go at whatever pace is possible.

Despite Book VII being so long, I found it fascinating. I was completely absorbed into it. I’m aware of Greek and Roman mythology, but apparently my understanding of it is very superficial. This chapter described rites and rituals of which I was never aware, and Augustine presented the theology behind myths, at least as written by Varro, and as interpreted by Augustine.

The general trend of the Book is for Augustine to take a tenet of Varro’s theology—which of course pertains to the pagan interpretation of nature—and dissect it to reveal its absurdity. Augustine takes up pagan identity with natural elements, pagan spiritual dissemination in the material world, the multiple gods who oversee nature and these lesser deities, how these pagan deities control the natural world, and the human attributes, especially sexuality, reflected in these deities. From this theology pagan rituals mostly handed down from King Numa Pompilius defined the Roman world’s worship and relationship to these deities. But in every tenet that Augustine takes up he goes on to show either an inconsistency in logic, a lack of any efficacy in the ritual, or a monstrous immorality with the gods and rituals. In turn he concludes that the pagan gods are either just reflections of man’s inner fancies or outright demons that have induced their worship.

Augustine then questions whether these gods should be worshiped.

Is it to these select gods, then, that a person should be consecrated in order to live in happiness after death? If he is consecrated to them, a person cannot even live with honor prior to death, since he is subject to foul superstitions and in the grip of unclean demons. But all these things, Varro tells us, have reference to the world. He should check to see whether they do not actually have reference to the impure.[65] After all, what is there which, if shown to be in the world, cannot be given a reference to the world? But what we are looking for is a mind that puts its trust in true religion, a mind that does not revere the world as its god but rather praises the world as God’s work and for God’s sake, a mind that, purified of all worldly stains, comes in purity to God, who created the world.

And if anyone claims that these gods are in some way a reflection of the true God, Augustine answers them with a rebuke.

But if anyone claims that he is worshiping the one true God — that is, the creator of every soul and body — by means of lifeless and monstrous images, homicidal sacrifices, the crowning of male organs, commerce in prostitutes, the slashing of limbs, the cutting-off of genitals, the consecration of effeminates, and festivals of impure and obscene shows, his worship is a sin. What makes it a sin is not that he is worshiping one who should not be worshiped but rather that he is worshiping the one who should be worshiped in a way in which he should not be worshiped. If, however, anyone uses such means — that is, disgraceful and wicked means — to worship not the true God, the maker of soul and body, but a creature (even if not an evil creature), whether that creature is a soul or a body or a soul together with a body, he sins twice against God: first, because he worships in place of God what is not God; and, second, because he uses means of worship that should not be used either in worshiping God or even in worshiping what is not God.

These pagan deities cannot reflect the True God because their nature is antithetical to the goodness of the true God. Subsection 29—should it be called a subsection? Not sure what to call the numbered divisions—articulates the main point of Book VII:

29. For everything in the theology of these gods which they refer back to the world by means of their naturalistic explanations may instead be ascribed, without any fear of sacrilege, to the true God, the God who made the world and who is the creator of every soul and every body.[71] We may put it this way: we worship God, not heaven and earth, which are the two parts of which the world consists. Nor do we worship any soul or souls diffused throughout all living things. Rather, we worship God, who made heaven and earth and all things in them, and who made every soul, whether it has only life but lacks sensation and reason, or also has sensation, or also has intelligence as well.

For Augustine, the pagans through their theology at times worship the material world or other times worship some pantheistic spirit that runs through the material world, but Christians worship God Himself, goodness and purity.

I love how he smashes their idols with humor and logic!

St. Augustine makes his aim clear in the Preface. He intends to “tear up and eradicate depraved and ancient opinions hostile to truth and piety.” This is a matter of great importance he tells us not only because of our mortal life, which is only a “transitory vapor” here but also on account “life eternal.”

Chapter 1 of this book considers whether we can find God, happiness, and eternal life by worshipping some “select gods” of the Romans. Varro himself explained, “the happiness of eternal life is not attainable through the worship of gods such as states have established to be worshipped.” What gods are the “select” ones? There are twenty identified by Varro. St. Augustine begins to examine various functions of gods and finds among them “as it were, plebeian crowd of deities, which has assigned to it the charge of minute and trifling things.” St. Augustine gives several examples of the absurdities with Roman gods such an example is Vitumnus who gives life to a fetus and Sentinus who gives it sense. He questions not without sense of humor why are there two gods, one to conduct someone on a journey and another god to guide him back home again. Why would anyone make a journey “if his mind is not good?”

St. Augustine tells us in Chapter 18 that a “far more credible account of these gods is given, when it is said that they were men.” However, Chapter 30 in this book addresses God’s divine existence as well as could be done:

“We worship that God Who has appointed to the natures created by Him both the beginnings and the end of their existing and moving; who holds, knows, and disposes the causes of things; …Ge governs all things in such a manner as to allow them to perform and exercise their own proper movements. For although they can do nothing without Him, they are not what He is. He does also many things through angels; but only form Himself does He beatify angels. So also, though He sends angels to men to certain purposes, He does not for all that beatify men for the good inherent in the angels, but by Himself, as He does the angels themselves.”

Let me say again, I really loved Book VII.

Madeleine wrote: "I love how he smashes their idols with humor and logic!"

I can see how some would like Augustine. Thomas Aquinas is actually quite different. He's more respctful to the erroneous arguments he disputes. In a way, he's more of a philosopher wherehe presents their best case and then still defeats it. Sometimes I get the feeling that Augustine is a polemicist.

I finally made my way through Book VII. It seemed a slog to me. I understand why St. Augustine picks things apart in such minute detail, but being so far removed from the world of Roman pagan rituals and not being familiar with so many detail was a little tedious to go through.

Manny wrote: "...homicidal sacrifices, the crowning of male organs...the cutting-off of genitals, the consecration of effeminates, and festivals of impure and obscene shows..."

How current this so sadly sounds...

Susan wrote: "Manny wrote: "...homicidal sacrifices, the crowning of male organs...the cutting-off of genitals, the consecration of effeminates, and festivals of impure and obscene shows..."

How current this s..."

It does!