Tournament of Books discussion

Location to discuss this much buzzed about book by Raven Leilani

I mostly gave the ToB a pass last year, because I was focused on reading more older books.

But I'm back. I started with this one. Often I find myself laughing and cringing at the awkwardness and bad life choices of Edie, the first-person narrator and protagonist. I hope to add more later.

I found myself really appreciating some characters in this but others (the wife) I really didn’t think acted in ways normal people would - but in 2020 I ‘m not sure we can ever say that about anyone’s behavior.

The writing here blew me away. And I’m still not over it. I laughed out loud (out loud!) and there were so many passages that took my breath away. Was not at all surprised to read that one of Leilani’s mentors was Zadie Smith. Such human writing.

But agreed that the behavior of the wife would have surprised me any other year! 😂

I was just floored by the writing in this novel. Really close to a five star read for me. So many highlightable passages throughout.

Does anyone see connections to Such a Fun Age? It is not surprising that one but not both of these books would end up in the shortlist.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Does anyone see connections to Such a Fun Age? It is not surprising that one but not both of these books would end up in the shortlist."

I didn't read SaFA but from the discussions during the Summer TOB I can definitely see similarities. Maybe they both would have been in if there had been a third similar book from the longlist to make it a play in round theme. Which did you like better?

I definitely see the similarities, and like the comparison to SaFA! You get the young, Black outsider coming into a white, upper middle class family. Weird kids, main character who doesn’t really know what she wants or where she wants to go, interracial sexual politics.

But where that book felt like a roller coaster packed with drama and a few characters very carefully crafting the narrative to their own purposes, this book won me with the prose, but with the real characters! They were more earthy and embodied and willing to laugh, be gross, be young or old and defecate and have shoes full of soup. That intimacy, rather than so much of the holding-at-arms-length of SaFA is what (I think) makes Luster shortlist material, though the former feels more likely to be adapted to the screen (big or small).

(And I really enjoyed Such A Fun Age. I found it to be a great, propulsive read. Would have loved an impossible judgement between it and Nothing to See Here, actually. The weird kids showdown.)

I listened to the audio a few months ago, and the narration was incredible, I felt like I was right there with her. (But I've been meaning to go back and read it in print so I can absorb it better than I did listening.)

For me, the writing was so much better on a sentence level than Such a Fun Age. I'm a sucker for good writing and character development, so this worked far better for me than SaFA, which was more about story.

Brenda wrote: "I found myself really appreciating some characters in this but others (the wife) I really didn’t think acted in ways normal people would - but in 2020 I ‘m not sure we can ever say that about anyon..."

The wife was a failure as a character for me, and the husband was mixed, but Edie is one of my favorite characters ever and Akila was great too. Like Heidi, I liked the way Edie's body ailments were so nonchalantly intimate - I found her constipation oddly endearing. (Now there's a phrase I never thought I'd say!)

So what do people make of the title? It seems to me like it could have two opposing meanings in this book - a superficial attractiveness or an inner glow. Maybe this story is about the difficulty of telling the two apart? Or being both at once?

1: a glow of reflected light : SHEEN
specifically : the appearance of the surface of a mineral dependent upon its reflecting qualities
the luster of polished metal

2a: a glow of light from within : LUMINOSITY
the luster of the stars
b: an inner beauty : RADIANCE

3: a superficial (see SUPERFICIAL sense 2a) attractiveness or appearance of excellence
scandals have diminished his luster

4a: a glass pendant (see PENDANT sense 1a) used especially to ornament a candlestick or chandelier
b: a decorative object (such as a chandelier) hung with glass pendants

Nadine wrote: "Brenda wrote: "I found myself really appreciating some characters in this but others (the wife) I really didn’t think acted in ways normal people would - but in 2020 I ‘m not sure we can ever say t..."

I agree about the character of Edie especially being fully formed. She was written with all these humanizing little touches (the GI tract issues being a great example) that I was totally convinced that this was a real person and not a character doing whatever the plot required. So impressed by that voice!

Regarding the wife, I think she was the least believable/relatable of the characters but something about how she waffled back and forth on whether she was ok with Edie being around rang true for me. As if she thought she'd be ok with the open marriage concept but when concept became reality there was a push/pull thing going on. It could have been fleshed out a bit more though.

Elizabeth wrote: "I listened to the audio a few months ago, and the narration was incredible, I felt like I was right there with her. (But I've been meaning to go back and read it in print so I can absorb it better ..."

I feel like I don't pick up on strong writing as well through audio. It seems like you noticed that here, but I can't remember anything standing out about this one. I enjoyed it, but don't remember the details. I should probably take notes when I listen to ToB-potential books in the earlier part of the year, but I don't know if that's likely to happen. ;)

Lauren wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "I listened to the audio a few months ago, and the narration was incredible, I felt like I was right there with her. (But I've been meaning to go back and read it in print so I can..."

I just thought there was so much cleverness, a deep understanding of character, and the metaphors were truly unique and added to the ideas rather than distracting. I ended up buying the ebook after I commented this morning, and just glancing through now, almost every page I look at has gems.

Nadine wrote: "So what do people make of the title? It seems to me like it could have two opposing meanings in this book - a superficial attractiveness or an inner glow. Maybe this story is about the difficulty o..."

I was thinking the title was a play on Luster - as in sheen and Luster as in some one who lusts - Edie's desire for sexual gratification.

Matthew wrote: "Regarding the wife, I think she was the least believable/relatable of the characters but something about how she waffled back and forth on whether she was ok with Edie being around rang true for me. As if she thought she'd be ok with the open marriage concept but when concept became reality there was a push/pull thing going on. It could have been fleshed out a bit more though"

I don't think the intent was to show "believable behavior" necessarily but rather to use absurd situations and behavior to showcase or heighten the emotion and drama of the story. I've only read 7 of the 18 but so far this would be my pick to win the championship. I could not put it down even though I was afraid to read on.

My problem with "believability" was Edie's ability to paint at any time and anywhere? I'm no artist, but it was my understanding that light was important when painting and she seems to be able to work in indirect lighting (and in someone's guest room which just horrified me because of the mess and smell of paints).

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Does anyone see connections to Such a Fun Age? It is not surprising that one but not both of these books would end up in the shortlist."

I see that comparison but more so I think Luster is a companion to The Pisces by Melissa Broder, The New Me by Halle Butler or Bunny by Mona Awad, etc. I have a real fondness for these books about awkward, flailing female protagonists and their attempts to get their sh** together. In my own way, all these books remind me (uncomfortably) of my own twenties.

Ruthiella wrote: "I was thinking the title was a play on Luster - as in sheen and Luster as is some one who lusts. Edie's desire for sexual gratification..."

That interpretation went right by me! Of course! And what a great title :)

Nadine wrote: "Ruthiella wrote: "I was thinking the title was a play on Luster - as in sheen and Luster as is some one who lusts. Edie's desire for sexual gratification..."

That interpretation went right by me! ..."

The title makes me want to go back and reread for references to synonyms like "sheen" or "shine" or "gloss." I don't remember specific passages using any of those but I bet I missed them.

Ruthiella wrote: "...don't think the intent was to show "believable behavior" necessarily but rather to use absurd situations and behavior to showcase or heighten the emotion and drama of the story. I've only read 7 of the 18 but so far this would be my pick to win the championship. I could not put it down even though I was afraid to read on. ..."

Agree completely that this was an unputdownable book. Even if I was reading a bit squeamishly.

Elizabeth wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "I listened to the audio a few months ago, and the narration was incredible, I felt like I was right there with her. (But I've been meaning to go back and read it in..."

Hmm I'm now very tempted to pick up a print copy of this one to revisit it. But I should probably finish the short list books I haven't read before I start rereading all the ones I read earlier this year...

I just finished this and was knocked out by the writing--so, so good and insightful. I was cringing and then laughing and then cringe-laughing. And I wanted to reach in and shake Edie as much as I wanted to hug her sometimes. She was so richly drawn.

I would be fine if this won (only having read four, so...)

Ok, y'all convinced me. I just purchased a hard copy of this one in an attempt to reread it for a potential zombie vote. Now I need to find the time to finish it in two days...

Did anyone else feel that Edie was narrating for a white audience? I felt the writing was spectacular and many-layered but I also felt that for all the seemingly intimate details she drops, that she keeps herself at a remove the whole time and doesn't really drop her mask and it seemed to be either a symptom of 1) depression/dislike of self or 2) code-switching for her audience. #1 doesn't quite feel right - I think we would have more evidence of emotions if that were the case and she really holds emotions close to the vest.

Amy wrote: "Did anyone else feel that Edie was narrating for a white audience? I felt the writing was spectacular and many-layered but I also felt that for all the seemingly intimate details she drops, that sh..."

Hmm, it's possible. I loved all of her punches on the racism surrounding her, but I could see how those might be with an audience of "woke" white folks in mind. Humor is often used to keep folks at a distance... I'm curious how this book is received by Black readers. I might scan the reviews for that.

I'm about halfway through my reread (this time in print), and the writing does feel unique and exceptional. I appreciate how witty it is, and have noticed that this author has turned the run-on sentence into an art form (seriously, most sentences take up half a page but it somehow works here). I'm not sure if it will get my zombie vote since Sharks and Transcendent Kingdom have subject matters that I enjoyed much more than this one, but I'll see if I can finish it before making my final decision tonight.

Is economic anxiety as a main point in fiction relatively new or am I just more in tune to it? I read several books this year where the main theme is the complete lack of safety net for the main characters - Luster, Such a fun age, Writers and Lovers are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. It definitely fits our current time.

Can anyone think of older examples?

Jess wrote: "Is economic anxiety as a main point in fiction relatively new or am I just more in tune to it? I read several books this year where the main theme is the complete lack of safety net for the main ch..."

Pretty much every novel by Charles Dickens deals with the economic insecurity of the protagonist(s). And certainly he was a man of his time using fiction to expose social ills.

Regarding the audience -- it reminded me of this interview I read with the author.


Rumpus: Who would you say is your intended audience?

Leilani: I wrote this for Black women. I wanted to write a character where room is made for the unruly. I wanted to write against respectability. Every Black woman I’ve spoken to about this book, the thing we end up talking about is, “I fucked up a lot. I was thrown a lot of detours.” I think it’s important to allow Black women leeway to stumble.

Rumpus: Yes!

Leilani: You know? When I started writing I thought, I’m going to write a messy fucking book, and it’s not going to make apologies. Edie’s going to make the same mistakes over and over again. I would obviously like other people to find something in this book, but for me, Black women were always my starting point. I didn’t want to legitimize the impossible standards that Black women are held to. Right now we’re seeing it online: Black women speaking out, and not just about the uppercase versions of what it means to move through the world, but the small demoralizing moments. Moments we are meant to bear with stoicism and with kindness, when those moments are violent. I’m tired of that. The expectation that we bear pain well, the idea that it is virtuous to do so, prioritizes our silence over our humanity. I wanted to write Black a woman who doesn’t handle it well. She buckles, she lashes out—she’s human.

https://therumpus.net/2020/08/the-rum...

Jess wrote: "Is economic anxiety as a main point in fiction relatively new or am I just more in tune to it? I read several books this year where the main theme is the complete lack of safety net for the main ch..."

I don't read many classics, so thinking about modern literature, I've found that most novels that take place in the U.S. feature characters that are either middle class or wealthy (especially if they're white). Novels about poverty tend to take place in India and other parts of the world (based on what I've seen/read). The new trend you mention is very refreshing for me since my two biggest pet peeves in novels are unnecessary romantic interest subplots, and stories where wealth offers the solution to the problem. I find the situations in Luster, Such a Fun Age, Writers and Lovers, etc. to be much more relatable and realistic. I hope we continue seeing stories that include this, but it will likely need more accessibility for writing and getting published. Most people experiencing poverty don't have the time or resources to write stories or novels that would eventually get published, but I hope that can change.

jess wrote: "Regarding the audience -- it reminded me of this interview I read with the author.


Rumpus: Who would you say is your intended audience?

Leilani: I wrote this for Black women. I wanted to write ..."

Thanks for sharing this interview! That's good to know. The last sentence of this book really moved me (and I marked a few dozen others throughout). "And when I am alone with myself, this is what I am waiting for someone to do to me, with merciless, deliberate hands, to put me down onto the canvas so that when I'm gone, there will be a record, proof that I was here."

Lauren wrote: "And when I am alone with myself, this is what I am waiting for someone to do to me, with merciless, deliberate hands, to put me down onto the canvas so that when I'm gone, there will be a record, proof that I was here."

I read Luster a few months ago, so the sentence-level details are gone for me, but this sentence brings back so much. Incredible how much of Edie is wrapped up in this one sentence - the passively masochistic way she phrases it - "...someone to do to me, with merciless, deliberate hands, to put me down...." and the contrast between that and the declared intention of wanting to be seen and counted. It's like her self respect is warring with her...what? I was going to say self-loathing, but that's too harsh....self-doubt is too weak....

Nadine wrote: "Lauren wrote: "And when I am alone with myself, this is what I am waiting for someone to do to me, with merciless, deliberate hands, to put me down onto the canvas so that when I'm gone, there will..."

Hmm yes, I think the way Edie views herself is complicated. I didn't pick up on self-loathing or much of a lack of confidence or self-esteem... It was more of a, "Thanks to racism and the shitty society we live in, I don't have great options and do things that might seem concerning, but so what? I'm dealing with it the best I can and I'm still a person who matters" feeling I got from it. I don't know how to describe that more precisely. ;)

Jess wrote: "Is economic anxiety as a main point in fiction relatively new or am I just more in tune to it? ... Can anyone think of older examples? "

Orwell, =Down and Out in Paris and London=
Hamsun, =Hunger=

Also, there is a vast late 19th century literature centered on the economic uncertainties of the changing sources of wealth (land to commerce).

And don't forget =Pride and Prejudice=

Lauren wrote: "The new trend you mention is very refreshing for me since my two biggest pet peeves in novels are unnecessary romantic interest subplots, and stories where wealth offers the solution to the problem."

You are pretty far out of the mainstream to judge by my library system's "new acquisitions" - It feels like half of them are romancing a billionaire or a royal in some form or another. I suppose the romantic interest isn't really a subplot in these, so technically, only pushing one of your buttons....

Tim wrote: "Lauren wrote: "The new trend you mention is very refreshing for me since my two biggest pet peeves in novels are unnecessary romantic interest subplots, and stories where wealth offers the solution..."

Ha, I guess I shouldn't look to join any book clubs at your library then... And unfortunately I don't enjoy reading romance when it's the primary plot either. ;)

Heidi wrote: "(And I really enjoyed Such A Fun Age. I found it to be a great, propulsive read. Would have loved an impossible judgement between it and Nothing to See Here, actually. The weird kids showdown.)"

That would have been a brilliant match!

Luster pushed two of my buttons: infidelity and large age discrepancies in a relationship. I was extremely reluctant to pick it up until I heard an interview with the author. Edie is written brilliantly. I have a quibble with one plot point, but otherwise, it is a great novel.

Lisa wrote: "Luster pushed two of my buttons: infidelity and large age discrepancies in a relationship. I was extremely reluctant to pick it up until I heard an interview with the author. Edie is written brilli..."

Care to share the plot point you struggled with (hidden by a spoiler tag, maybe)? I'm glad it ended up working out for you given the buttons pushed. Same for me (although I have different buttons). ;)

Absolutely, I'd love to hear your thoughts and your buttons that were pushed. (view spoiler)[I thought that the miscarriage was far too convenient as a plot point. She could have omitted the pregnancy altogether or made the plot complicated--either would have been better in my opinion. (hide spoiler)]

Lisa wrote: "Absolutely, I'd love to hear your thoughts and your buttons that were pushed. [spoilers removed]"

Hmm I can see that. It was a bit convenient, although I think the author was still able to capture some of the trauma of it (at least from my perspective, as someone who hasn't experienced that situation), so I didn't feel like it was too easy of an out. And I guess calling them "buttons" is too strong here, but I generally don't want to read about (view spoiler)[ sex, and especially when it's accompanied by violence like the strangling and hits Edie takes to the face in this story. Yikes. :/ (hide spoiler)]

That's a great point. I also haven't experienced it, but she seemed to convey the pain effectively. I agree about your other comment--I can't believe I forgot about it.

Lauren wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Absolutely, I'd love to hear your thoughts and your buttons that were pushed. [spoilers removed]"

Hmm I can see that. It was a bit convenient, although I think the author was still ab..."

I was really uncomfortable with that as well (quite a bit in this book I was uncomfortable with!) but I think it was used really well to portray her character.

And now I'm trying to figure out what exactly this, and the fact she was willing to be used by so many men, said about her character. She was so strong in some ways, so weak in others. It's been a little while since I read this, but thinking back I don't think I ever really understood her, even though her character and personality were drawn so intricately and she was always fully believable. It probably has something to do with Amy's point, about her holding her emotions so close, which keeps us at a distance. (What was she feeling during those encounters? I assumed it was just her desperation to be cared for, but there were times she seemed to long to be treated like this.)

Thanks for the great discussion. I may reread this before March--I was saddened by the choices she made. My first response was that most of us do stupid things in our early twenties. This book has given me so much to ponder.

I'm still sort of processing the book but this was a difficult read for me. Not necessarily because it wasn't a good book - I think it was for all of the reasons you guys have mentioned. It was just so uncomfortable to read.

So many poor choices and weird relationships, but Akila stays with me. I hope her parents try to understand her better in the future. The struggles she already faces that they seem oblivious to, the damn calorie counting. Sigh.

I'm going out on a island of my own here.
I found nothing interesting, remarkable, or noteworthy about this book.

Audra wrote: "I'm going out on a island of my own here.
I found nothing interesting, remarkable, or noteworthy about this book."

You are not alone. I was not all that impressed with this one. If I want to read about a black woman suffering from IBS making bad decisions, I will stick to Samantha Irby. At least her essays are funny.

Oh. My. Goodness. I know so many of you kept talking about the brilliant writing in this book, but I seriously could not have ever imagined how good it actually is.

I really did not want to read this one, because the whole young black woman having an affair with an older white man with the assent of his white wife just did not sound like an appealing plot to me. But wow -- that is not really the story here at all.

I was uncomfortable for every single page of this book, wanting to avert my eyes from Edie's life and from Akita's life and from Rebecca and from Eric most of all. But all of them kept on being so painfully real.

Raven Leilani is an author to be reckoned with. I'll trust her to take me anywhere with her writing.

Wow, Phyllis. I hadn't wanted to read this book -- I'd been avoiding it since it came out -- but now I'm glad it's next in my pile.

(Speaking of which, I'm currently reading Ursula Hegi's latest, The Patron Saint of Pregnant Girls. Has anyone else read it? I'm really, really liking it.)