Tournament of Books discussion

thread for discussion of Breasts and Eggs by Mieko Kawakami

I just finished listening to this yesterday. Wow! I love the nuance and exploration of themes that don't often come up, like the ethics and consequences of artificial insemination and just procreation in general. This feels like very risky but fascinating territory to cover in a novel. I have a lot of thoughts on the subject based on my personal experiences, but it feels so dangerous to discuss, with a huge risk of offending people.

Major props to the author for this story including a main character who's Ace, but I wasn't thrilled with the ending. I don't know how I actually wanted it to end though, haha.

I nervously await other readers' thoughts on this one...

Lauren wrote: "I just finished listening to this yesterday. Wow! I love the nuance and exploration of themes that don't often come up, like the ethics and consequences of artificial insemination and just procreat..."

I had to lead discussion on this one with my in-person book club in August and so many people just flat checked out of it that we didn't have as robust of a discussion as usually do. I'm hoping we can change that here.

And since I made a Powerpoint, I'll pull out some of the research I did for some potential discussion (Lauren, surprisingly we didn't really get much into the ethical ramifications of procreation and insemination, and I almost wish we had!)

1. Writing realness (reaction to Murakami and "cute Japan" tropes)
"Japan’s literary universe is still odd, cute and a bit mysterious...But we’re not like that at all. I don’t want to write books that perpetuate that image. I want to write about real people.” -Mieko Kawakami, The Guardian, 18 August 2020

2. Writing women (Murakami again!)
This Murakami conflict goes much deeper, actually, and it's a fascinating literary fuss if you want to look into it, rather felt like Franzen vs. Jennifer Weiner in tone... except instead of duking it out safely behind phones in Twitter, she called him out on stage! I must admit I might like this story more than the novel itself but it makes me interested in what comes next.

3. Osaka dialect, the translation, and more.
Mieko Kawakami is known in Japan for writing in the distinctive Kansai dialect. Kansai dialect is connected to Osaka...
“All the comedians come from Osaka”

Examples of Kansai vs. other Japanese dialects:
https://youtu.be/hEYBzao2tCA
https://youtu.be/URzQTND6LLg

There are different versions of what this should look like in English, however. Louise Heal Kawai translated Kawakami’s more recent novel, Ms Ice Sandwich.

She says,
"The inhabitants of both cities are said to be friendly, down-to-earth, and very outspoken, just as the characters in Breasts and Eggs. And most importantly, the dialect spoken in Osaka and Western Japan is markedly different from that of Tokyo and the East. Often frowned upon as sounding rather rough or unsophisticated, Mancunian (adjective meaning “of Manchester”) is to my ears a perfect rendering of Osaka dialect."

Okay so gird your loins, here is one of the bathing scenes as translated from Japanese by Louise Heal Kawai. (view spoiler)[
Clouds of steam curl upwards and disappear, a clunk suddenly echoes somewhere high up near the ceiling, and everywhere are relaxed, glowing faces soaking it all up.
“Posh in't it?” remarks Makiko. “Yeh, dead posh,” I say, as we go over to the line of mirrors and grab ourselves a stool and wash bowl. Makiko wants to start off with a soak in the bath, so I tie my hair up, scoop some water over me, and we get in the biggest bath, the one with the sign that says 42 degrees in red. Even though it’s common knowledge that you don’t stick your washcloth in the clean bath water (and there’s even a warning notice on the wall) my sister doesn’t seem to give a toss and waltzes right in with hers still hiding all her bits.
“Hey, this isn’t hot,” she whinges. “Is this what they call a hot soak in Tokyo?”
…“Bloody freezing,” announces Makiko and heads over to the whirlpool. That one being more to her taste, we end up in there.
The whole time she’s sat in the tub, Makiko’s ogling other women. It’s like being sat next to the wolf in Little Red Riding Hood or something, which I can tell you makes me so uncomfortable that I can’t help whispering “Maki, luv, you’re staring,” to which I get a vague “Oh yeh?” as her eyes continue hungrily to hunt down bodies—bodies soaking in the hot pools, bodies stepping out of the water, bodies deep in bubbles. She’s so caught up in her gawping that for once she has nothing to say. She just lies there watching naked women coming and going, and well I don’t want to look a right idiot by talking to myself in public, so for a while I end up lying there in the bath beside Makiko, staring at women’s bodies with her. (hide spoiler)]

Yeh? Dead posh! Ha, wow.

4. The actual translators - Sam Bett & David Boyd

Knowing what we know about Kawakami and her feminist lens, how do you feel about both translators of this novel being male? Are they the best choice to capture the feelings and patterns of women in female-only spaces? When they talk about their work, they view the translation differently. They find Osaka characteristics most in the “animated spirit” and “gushing life force” and didn’t worry as much about dialect.
They saw a challenge of portraying how Natsuko would come across in English, as she is not just any female character.

(I should also point out that two books on our shortlist have significant portions in Osaka. Memorial has major scenes there ... does it seem like the same city in different hands?

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Lauren wrote: "I just finished listening to this yesterday. Wow! I love the nuance and exploration of themes that don't often come up, like the ethics and consequences of artificial insemination an..."

You've done so much research on this! Did folks in your book club check out because they didn't like the book, or because they weren't familiar enough with the concepts here to provide input?

I've only read one Murakami (Colorless Tsukuru Tazaki and His Years of Pilgrimage) and I listened to the audio, which didn't work for me. I need to try him again, but with keeping in mind the issues mentioned here.

On your fourth point, I do find it surprising that the translators are male. And it seems like the dialect aspect of the translation would be important... Does this mean that authors don't have much say over who translates their work?

Oh and on the ethics of having children aspect of this story, The Girls from Corona del Mar (by the same author of The Knockout Queen) is an excellent follow-up to this book! I'm very impressed by that author.

Lauren wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Lauren wrote: "I just finished listening to this yesterday. Wow! I love the nuance and exploration of themes that don't often come up, like the ethics and consequences ..."

I don't know if authors control translation or not! I don't think so. But the approach was so different between the two men and the woman.

My book club - well the leader didn't finish so she was dismissive and that just set the whole tone. We managed to schedule it on the first day of classes for most schools in the fall and some are mothers..most people seemed tired. It's unusual for that group where people take it pretty seriously. Then there's that one person who just wants to talk about the "time I went to Japan...."

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Lauren wrote: "I just finished listening to this yesterday. Wow! I love the nuance and exploration of themes that don't often come up, like the ethics an..."

Ha, it sounds like you had a lot of factors working against you for that discussion! I hope your research can be better appreciated here.

I have limited familiarity with Japan, and the dialects you mention. Is that something you already had some background on going into this book?

Lauren wrote: "I have limited familiarity with Japan, and the dialects you mention. Is that something you already had some background on going into this book?
..."

Not really, I think it came up in some reviews so I went to youtube, because I've spent many hours of my life watching language and dialect videos (the wikitongue project is a favorite.) I find them fascinating. From my middle eastern reading this year I found out that different forms of Arabic are drastically different, for instance.

And I think I'm interested in how translators handle things like dialect, slang, etc. It was only after reading Snow by Orhan Pamuk where I found out that in Turkish the words for snow and white etc have a lot of double meaning but it was impossible to translate it into English that way - how much of the original intent is lost? How can it be represented? How much can we expect the translator to also understand of these things? How will they know what they don't know? Even the male translator to female author makes me wonder that for this novel.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "Lauren wrote: "I have limited familiarity with Japan, and the dialects you mention. Is that something you already had some background on going into this book?
..."

Not really, I think it came up i..."

Great questions! Spanish is the only other language I've studied, so I haven't gone as deep into the subject as you have, but there's a lot to think about. There are various phrases in Spanish that don't translate well to English, but when I read translated novels I don't tend to notice that issue, so I'm not sure how much is lost, or how much the translator is just skilled in smoothly interpreting...

I noticed no one seems to be reading this! Any ideas what’s up? I have the audiobook and plan to start it in mid-February, but a friend has been finding It unavailable at Powell’s and even at Amazon. Evidently the paperback comes out in late March and Europa isn’t printing more hardbacks. I wonder if availability is an issue for ToB folks.

Jan wrote: "I noticed no one seems to be reading this! Any ideas what’s up? I have the audiobook and plan to start it in mid-February, but a friend has been finding It unavailable at Powell’s and even at Amazo..."

It's in Hoopla as eBook and audiobook if people have that.

I just read it so long ago, back in the summer.

Thanks, Jenny. I’m hoping people will find their way to it.

Jan wrote: "I noticed no one seems to be reading this! Any ideas what’s up? ..."
I enjoyed this when I read it at the end of December. I didn't have any trouble getting it, but I had purchased it back in March of last year, so I had it on hand when the longlist came out. The ToB gave me a nudge to go ahead and read it, and it was certainly a nice break from the dystopias on the list.

I'm still waiting for it to come in at the library.

Jan wrote: "I noticed no one seems to be reading this! Any ideas what’s up?"

I DNF'd this weekend....

There is a significant break in tone after part one and it’s easy for a reader to lose momentum there. I loved the whole book but thought the first novella was magnificent and the rest merely really great.

I’m listening to the audio...it’s a slog so far.

Jan wrote: "I noticed no one seems to be reading this! Any ideas what’s up? I have the audiobook and plan to start it in mid-February, but a friend has been finding It unavailable at Powell’s and even at Amazo..."

Hmm, that could be it. I listened to the audiobook borrowed from the library, and that worked well. I found this to be a nice break from the dystopia books that make up a good chunk of our short list this year. I still haven't touched my copy of Tender is the Flesh, but I imagine reading this one right after would help with recovery.

I ended up using an audible credit, and I'm glad I did because it's one of my favorites I've read so far in the tournament. It's interesting how different the two books are (yes both are about women's bodies, but one features only three characters and takes place over the course of a few days, and the other features a fairly large cast and takes place over the course of at least a year, if I was keeping track right) but they cohere and work well together.

Tim wrote: "I DNF'd this weekend...."

I'm not surprised, Tim. It was just so completely from inside of a woman's body that I had wondered how many men would make it through. And for me it read very slowly.

Jenny, thank you so much for the link to that interview with Murakami! That was a fascinating conversation to read, especially because the two of his novels I've read (Norwegian Wood and After Dark) are the ones that he calls out as being different, but which I'd say have precisely the same issues that Kawakami raised. He's a gorgeous writer, but his women are always a little too sexualized and a little too narratively in service to the male protagonist.

I have to admit that I haven't gotten around to Breasts and Eggs yet, but after reading that interview, I'm newly intrigued by it.

I listened to the audio (got it from Libby, one of my library's online services) and I really liked it! I think I enjoy novels that are more meandering and more tightly focused on the thoughts of the main character in audio more than I do in print. I could only get through Milkman in audio, and while I wouldn't compare that book to this one, they do both heavily focus on the inner thoughts of the main character.

I just liked that this book brought up a lot of topics that are rarely discussed in literature, and as previously mentioned, I found it interesting that the main character was asexual.

This one only rose to "meh" for me, mostly because it was just too damn long. Why do authors feel compelled to tell me every morsel of food a character eats? Why tell me they walked down the street? It's possible that something was lost in translation. This one also could have been two short stories or novellas. I did like the feminist angle and that the main character was ace. That was the only thing that kept me reading to the end.

Thank you so much for your research! It brought so much more to the novel. I wish they had used a female translator.

I didn't love the novel, but I have great admiration for what she is doing.

Just finished the audio. I don't share the love.

I really liked this book. It felt like a very honest look into Japanese poverty and patriarchy. I was invested in her story which all I really need.

This book was a total dud for me. It felt really disjointed and I really wasn't interested.
I have notice I can struggle with books translated from Japanese. I feel like I'm missing something.

There's such a difference between the first part and the second. The first was propulsive and so tightly constructed, and the second was wandering. I really liked the book, but there was a definite adjustment I had to make once I got to the second part.

I just finished the audiobook. Wow! I'm not sure I've ever read such an intimate female story, or one with so many depressed or cynical characters expressing a wish that they'd never been born. Lauren, you nailed it: risky but fascinating choices indeed. I join you in feeling that the ending was a copout.

I'm wondering how this will do against Piranesi. P was fun and an easier read, but B&E feels more important and interesting, and it makes me want to learn more about how misogyny plays out in modern-day Japan (well, 2008). Anyone want to predict the outcome of that round?

Jan wrote: "I'm wondering how this will do against Piranesi. P was fun and an easier read, but B&E feels more important and interesting, and it makes me want to learn more about how misogyny plays out in modern-day Japan (well, 2008). Anyone want to predict the outcome of that round? .."

Wow, I really don't want to speculate, because I found B&E to be viscerally true in the way only fiction can be, and I was completely befogged by Piranesi.

I have no idea if I'm making this up or not--but to me, just lately, so many literary novels seem to be written both BY women and FOR women.

I'm not saying that men can't love these novels but I also find myself wondering if it feels different to male readers to read a novel like this one, one that's so explicitly about a woman's interior experiences, and where so much is left unexplained, where the author is almost counting on the reader to already understand what it's like to have these experiences herself.

lark wrote: "...just lately, so many literary novels seem to be written both BY women and FOR women. I'm not saying that men can't love these novels but I also find myself wondering if it feels different to male readers to read a novel like this one, one that's so explicitly about a woman's interior experiences, and where so much is left unexplained, where the author is almost counting on the reader to already understand what it's like to have these experiences herself."

Lark, I had this same thought as I was reading Breasts and Eggs about how it would be received by men. And of course that question echoes all of the conversations about: female readers forever and a day reading books written by men and for men - if female readers could do it, then male readers should be able to do it; the notion of whether certain books are written for a particular audience (I recall the author of Real Life saying he did not write it for the "white gaze," but perhaps that's a conversation for the Longlist discussion); and the whole huge quagmire of authentic voices and the value of even non-authentic voices drawing attention to rarely discussed topics and people and places. This book made me ponder an awful lot of readerly questions.

lark wrote: "Jan wrote: "I'm wondering how this will do against Piranesi. P was fun and an easier read, but B&E feels more important and interesting, and it makes me want to learn more about how misogyny plays ..."

Ooh! So! What about the fact that both translators are male?

Phyllis wrote: "Lark, I had this same thought as I was reading Breasts and Eggs about how it would be received by men.."

I haven't read the book, but for me the title alone feels almost aggressively and uncomfortably biological and reproductive (with all the social and personal baggage that comes with it) and purposely designed to weed out all but the most empathic men. To be honest, it weeded me out too! I'm trying to imagine a book with an equally aggressive, biologically male version of the title, and the ones I come up with would weed me out even more. But that's just me ;)

Nadine wrote: "... but for me the title alone feels ..."

Or it could have been about chickens. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Phyllis wrote: "Nadine wrote: "... but for me the title alone feels ..."

Or it could have been about chickens. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)"

Ha! It could have been a cookbook!

Phyllis wrote: "Nadine wrote: "... but for me the title alone feels ..."

Or it could have been about chickens. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)"

I think it was Amy who had a "chicken or egg" guess for the play in theme this year, which would have been a fun outcome for that (although I didn't love Barn 8).

Juliana wrote: "I was curious if the title was a direct translation, and when I looked it up found that the Japanese title, Natsu monogatari, translates to "Summer Stories" or "Natsu's Stories." (So Natsu means "s..."

Wow, that's fascinating. Yes, I would have been much more interested in reading this if it had one of those titles instead. I was turned off by "breasts and eggs" since I had a feeling it would be a story about reproduction, which I have limited interest in. But it turned out this one worked for me since it had an Ace main character and explored some moral questions around reproduction that I hadn't seen before.

Jenny (Reading Envy) wrote: "...Ooh! So! What about the fact that both translators are male?."

I cannot even make sense out of this!!!