Play Book Tag discussion

For the bonus tag of historical fiction this month, several people are going to read Wolf Hall! Anyone is welcome to join!

The people I have down so far are:
Anita
Nicole R
Jen K
Booknblues
Jenny

And, our tentative schedule for reading is:
Week 1/10 to 1/16: Parts 1 and 2
Week 1/17 to 1/24: Parts 3 and 4
Week 1/25 to 1/31: Parts 5 and 6

You can certainly read at whatever pace you want, but if you read ahead, please no spoilers! (Though, can you spoil history!?)

I am looking forward to this!

Excited for this one!

Just the push I need to get me to read it.

Hi!
I don't know where everyone is from, but I live in the UK so will be able to help with the history/possibly geography if you have any questions whilst reading.

I studied the Tudors when I was a child so know the period reasonably well, plus my Dad is an ex-history teacher so can always ask him. Geography may be slightly trickier, but I'll try my best!

AJ wrote: "Does 1/10 to 1/16 mean starting on the 10th of January until the 16th of January? ."

Yes, AJ that is correct.

Jenny wrote: "Hi!
I don't know where everyone is from, but I live in the UK so will be able to help with the history/possibly geography if you have any questions whilst reading.

I studied the Tudors when I was ..."

Thanks, Jenny!!! I appreciate this kind offer and will probably take you up on it.

Anita wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Hi!
I don't know where everyone is from, but I live in the UK so will be able to help with the history/possibly geography if you have any questions whilst reading.

I studied the Tudo..."

you're stabbing me in the heart by re-reading this Anita-LOL

Joanne wrote: "Anita wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Hi!
I don't know where everyone is from, but I live in the UK so will be able to help with the history/possibly geography if you have any questions whilst reading.

I st..."

Joanne - we will stand strong together! Anita will just have to live with the pain she has caused us!

Joanne wrote: "Anita wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Hi!
I don't know where everyone is from, but I live in the UK so will be able to help with the history/possibly geography if you have any questions whilst reading.

I st..."

Don't laugh, but I'm already regretting agreeing to even try . . .I must have some kind of masochistic streak.

Anita wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Anita wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Hi!
I don't know where everyone is from, but I live in the UK so will be able to help with the history/possibly geography if you have any questions whilst..."

Sorry, I am laughing Anita. Especially since you have been struggling with your reading-Why oh Why would you do this to yourself😂

Joanne wrote: "Anita wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Anita wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Hi!
I don't know where everyone is from, but I live in the UK so will be able to help with the history/possibly geography if you have any qu..."

You make a good point! I may have been sucked in by the idea of reading it with others . . .but you are giving me pause, lol.

Anita wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Anita wrote: "Joanne wrote: "Anita wrote: "Jenny wrote: "Hi!
I don't know where everyone is from, but I live in the UK so will be able to help with the history/possibly geography if ..."

We told you so!

There, now that is said, we will welcome you back into our fold if you abandon your reread. Right, Joanne?

Oh no Theresa-Now she has to re-read it so that we can continue to laugh-and say I told you so! LOL-just thinking, watch Anita give 5 stars this time around😂🤣

I finally started! I managed to read Chapter 1 last night before crashing. lol

Read Chapter 1 at lunch, will probably continue a chapter at lunch each day. I completely forgot that this was about Thomas Cromwell. So far, so good.

Chapter 1 done! I like the chaper/day idea . . .

Just started.

So, reading this book takes me a while because every few pages I am back on Wikipedia looking things up!

This morning I learned that it in fact a very real theory (likelihood?) that Henry slept with Elizabeth Boleyn—mother to Ann and Mary—before he ever married Katherine! In fact, she may have been the first he ever slept with!

Okay, back to reading...lol

Nicole R wrote: "So, reading this book takes me a while because every few pages I am back on Wikipedia looking things up!

This morning I learned that it in fact a very real theory (likelihood?) that Henry slept w..."

This is actually briefly referenced in the book, but I believe past the point where you are reading (in Part II).

I am shockingly on schedule though Part II is long so it may not be done by the 16th.

Happy that you are sharing found facts!

I've done 4 chapters in 4 days but tomorrow's is about 80 pages so I will have catch up over the weekend to complete Part 1 and 2. I'm enjoying the history refresh.

Perhaps slight spoilers if you are not through Part II? But, not really

I finished up Part II this morning. I am not sure what we are supposed to think of Thomas Cromwell. Does history portray him poorly or in a good light?

Regardless, when his wife and then two daughters died, I had tears. Especially his daughter Anne who was full of sass!

Thoughts so far:

-- Ugh, can we get some other names?!? Everyone is named Thomas, Anne, Mary, Katherine, or William. And, then we have to remember which Thomas is a Duke of which place. I think I am finally getting the hang of it though. I made some notes in the front.

-- I realize that I don't remember much of this book from the first time I read it back in 2013? Which is not surprising, I don't often retain many book details after turning the last page.

-- I am liking this better this time around. The first time, the overuse of the pronoun "he" drove me insane! But, this time I was aware from the outset that "he" is Cromwell. So it is taking less effort to read this time.

-- I loved the brief interaction between Cromwell and Mary Boleyn! I need to read more about Mary, I think she is fascinating. Her father and brother basically maneuvered her into being the mistress of TWO kings, she has two of Henry VIII's children (one a coveted boy) and yet she ends up in relative obscurity, Mantell portrayed her very interestingly. She comes across on the surface as a flighty, gossipy courtesan, but also gives her a bit of agency and cunning.

--Who is Mercy?!? She is the woman in Cromwell's household who takes care of the children. Is she the nanny? She seems to have quite a bit of say in the household and Cromwell seems to value her opinion. Is she a niece?!? I cannot figure it out.

-- We should have paid closer attention to the length of the Parts in this books before just dividing them up 2-2-2. Parts III and IV are 250 pages! I am not sure I can get that done in a week, but I am going to give it hell.

Just a fun question:

Have you watched any historical fiction TV that has improved your understanding of this book? There are several out there including The Tudors and the White Queen/White Princess/Spanish Princess on Starz.

Has anyone actually watched the Wolf Hall miniseries?

Nicole R wrote: "Just a fun question:

Have you watched any historical fiction TV that has improved your understanding of this book? There are several out there including The Tudors and the White Queen/White Prince..."

I watched the first two (maybe three?) seasons of The Tudors, but many years ago. I don't remember many of the details. I definitely remember how coy Anne was when snagging Henry, and I remember the greatness of Maria Doyle Kennedy as Queen Katherine (seriously, she is awesome).

During COVID I have watched The White Queen, The White Princess, and the first part of The Spanish Princess on Starz. These shows only mention Cromwell and Wolsey in passing, but they do provide a great overview of the kings from The War of the Roses through Henry VIII.

That has actually been extremely helpful in understanding much of the info that is included in the two family trees at the beginning of the book.

I am not sure I would recommend more than The White Queen (I thought that one was very good!), but they have passed the time and I actually feel like I learned some stuff from them. lol. Though, all three are based on Philippa Gregory books and I think we all know that she plays fast and loose with the factual part of her historical fiction and she has an obsession with witchcraft!

Wolf Hall actually makes me want to read some Alison Weir.

I have also watched (and read) The Other Boleyn Girl and watched Mary Queen of Scots and a couple of the Elizabeth movies. They don't necessarily inform Wolf Hall, but do provide context for the politics around that time and succession after Henry VIII.

I'm behind in the book, but can recommend the TV series of the book.

Yes, I totally missed that the chapter lengths are not completely even. Sorry! I'm hoping the more I get into it, the faster it will read? I may try to read ahead over the holiday weekend as well. You are definitely already ahead of me at this point but I will catch up soon.

The "he" thing took me a bit as well and the names are a bit tricky but trying to keep it all straight.

Somehow I've gone off TV a bit in the last couple years and watch very little though I devoured Bridgerton on Netflix over Christmas weekend.

I did see the Mary Queen of Scots movie last year which was fascinating. Maybe after reading these books, I will try a recommended series or movie.

I cannot wait to dive into Bridgerton! It is up next in the queue after I finish the final 4 episodes of Vikings.

Bridgerton was so good!!! I loved it! I can't wait for more!! Though the second half is more explicit than I expected to see on TV but definitely a necessary plot point.

@ Nicole-Mercy is Cromwell's Mother-in-law

I binged Tudors several years ago, read everything I could get my hands on and honestly - It did me in. I don't think I can ever do it again. (Book or TV) Yet, I'm addicted to this thread b/c it's like a car wreck for me.
Mostly because I attempted this book 3 times and quit 3 times and SOME OF YOU ARE READING IT AGAIN! Gasp.

Thank you, Joanne! I have no idea how I missed that and I guess I had the impression that she was younger.

Hahaha! I enjoy that you will be silently creeping around, Nicole. lol.

I know I never watched the last season of The Tudors, maybe even the last two, but there is just so much good TV waiting for me to watch that I doubt I actually finish it.

Nicole D. wrote: "I binged Tudors several years ago, read everything I could get my hands on and honestly - It did me in. I don't think I can ever do it again. (Book or TV) Yet, I'm addicted to this thread b/c it's ..."

Come over and cuddle with Joanne who DNF and I who struggled and barely finished....we are lurking too. Anita's spot on the sidelines is available .... since she is reading the unreadable AGAIN!

Nicole D. wrote: "I binged Tudors several years ago, read everything I could get my hands on and honestly - It did me in. I don't think I can ever do it again. (Book or TV) Yet, I'm addicted to this thread b/c it's ..."

Ha ha, omg. Thank you for the laugh. I feel this way about WWII books. I really, really, really don't want to read any more, but I know I will, and then I'll hate myself in the morning.

I'm about 20% through WH. I am starting to remember all the things I didn't like, but now that I get the whole way "he" is used (ridiculous in my opinion), it's truly helpful.

But the sections where there's two characters discussing back history that goes over a hundred years . . .why??? Is that seriously necessary? Because if you know it, you don't need it, and if you don't know it, it's not in the least bit helpful, interesting, or clear.

I did absolutely love the television series, the Tudors. I could watch it again.

Nicole R wrote: "For the bonus tag of historical fiction this month, several people are going to read Wolf Hall! Anyone is welcome to join!

The people I have down so far are:
Anita
Nicole R
Jen K
Booknblues
Jenny
..."

Shockingly I finished Part II on schedule. Not going to lie . . .there are still parts of this book, even on the second reading, where I'm like "what the heck is going on and why do I care?" Sigh.

When others reach this point, can someone point out WHY Cromwell is so loyal to Wolsey exactly? He makes the case that he'd be richer and better liked if he just went his own way . . .so why is he so loyal exactly? Is this a replacement father figure for him?

I need to catch up this weekend. So far, I am not minding the "he" issue as it has been talked about and criticized so much that I easily knew who "he" was referring to.

I caught up through Part 2 and read the first chapter of Part 3.

I'm enjoying so far. I assume that the random tidbits will become important later but maybe not. I really enjoyed how the history/ politics were broken up by scenes of Cromwell with his family so I'm a bit worried now that they are mostly dead. I will miss them.

Good question as to why Cromwell stays so loyal. He seems to have hopped around quite a bit and make good relationships with others so why did this one with Wolsey truly stick? It doesn't seem to be a religion thing and Wolsey doesn't seem that great. Perhaps it is a father figure thing? The faith that Wolsey has put into him?

Nicole R wrote: "Perhaps slight spoilers if you are not through Part II? But, not really

I finished up Part II this morning. I am not sure what we are supposed to think of Thomas Cromwell. Does history portray him..."

My understanding is that Thomas Cromwell had been mostly portrayed as a villain before this, since he was the "fixer" for Henry VIII. The part about his family tragedy (and his rough upbringing) humanizes him. I also liked the info about his background in trade and how he was so good at dealing with figures because he had learned techniques earlier in life. Knowing systems like mental math and "memory palaces" would have given him an advantage over most people who only had rote learning. I don't know if there's any historical indication about his skills and where he learned them.

Yes, too many Thomases, that even gets mentioned at one point. I real a lot of historical fiction and this one really stymied me for a long time. I think I spent about 3 months on it between other books. Your method is better, to keep going daily, so you don't forget who is who. What I do like is how she doesn't explain a lot, just throws you into the century. I detest historical novels where artificial explanation is given either by an author in "info dumps" or in awkward conversation - "As you know, your father the king did such & such". But maybe Mantel goes a little too far in withholding explanation.

The 2nd book is much more readable, linear and takes place over a fairly short time period. I haven't read the 3rd one yet. When the 2nd one came out, I really didn't want to reread the whole Wolf Hall so instead I watched the TV version, which worked out great. Then I read Bring Up the Bodies and then watched the TV section on that.

Hello - I'm late to the party here but have just got my hands on a copy so I hope you don't mind if I jump in?

It's a re-read for me so I'll start by explaining my ambivalence going in: I read it years ago while nursing an infant, straight after The Other Boleyn Girl and having mistakenly picked it up hoping for another light shot of Tudor court intrigue and scandal - it was far too heavy for my sleep-deprived brain, and I finished it, but only grudgingly. Then I watched the BBC adaptation and found it absolutely captivating (side note: I also found Mark Rylance absolutely captivating, which was a bit confusing since at the time I was mostly aware of him as the voice of stuffed rabbit 'Flop' in the preschool tv show Bing...) I've been determined to give the book another try ever since, so here I am.

So far I'm loving it this time round. On my first reading I found it dry, but - perhaps because the tv show brought all of the emotional parts of the story to the foreground so I now notice them even when they're just hinted at? - I am now seeing it as much deeper and richer. This feels like it might be a complication of the usual book vs tv debate - in my case, the book does contain everything I loved about the tv show, but I needed the tv show to draw me into it.

It is slow going for me but I am liking it. It seems to be skipping around a little time wise, right now and I need to orient myself a bit when it does that.

Jen K wrote: "I caught up through Part 2 and read the first chapter of Part 3.

I'm enjoying so far. I assume that the random tidbits will become important later but maybe not. I really enjoyed how the history/..."

Even though I'm whining, I am definitely appreciating the book more this second go around. I like the parts that are character oriented . . .it's the bits of woven in history where I don't quite have enough context that I'm struggling with . . .

For example, Cromwell is talking to the king about France and how going to war would be a bad idea because they don't have any internal holdings for supply lines. The king responds that he just needs a shoreline then.

I really am unclear what's going on and why a shoreline will do the trick. That stuff frustrates me, and yet, I don't want to read the entire history of the time period to educate myself either.

Robin P wrote: ".I detest historical novels where artificial explanation is given either by an author in "info dumps" or in awkward conversation - "As you know, your father the king did such & such". But maybe Mantel goes a little too far in withholding explanation...."

Ha, ha - - okay, now you are making me a little more grateful that there is less information . . .

I am happy to see you say Bringing Up Bodies is more linear and covers a shorter time period. I'm really re-reading this one to get to that one!

Nikki wrote: "Hello - I'm late to the party here but have just got my hands on a copy so I hope you don't mind if I jump in?

It's a re-read for me so I'll start by explaining my ambivalence going in: I read it ..."

I love your backstory about reading this book! Wish I had an infant as my excuse for not getting into it. I will agree with you that it seems less dry this go around for whatever reason. I do think I'm trying harder to pay attention and to at least identify who the characters are (using the handy dandy guide at the beginning of the book).

Booknblues wrote: "It is slow going for me but I am liking it. It seems to be skipping around a little time wise, right now and I need to orient myself a bit when it does that."

Same. Particularly since in the various years the king's relationship with Wolsey is different, and I keep getting confused by that aspect.

Anita wrote: "Jen K wrote: "I caught up through Part 2 and read the first chapter of Part 3.

I'm enjoying so far. I assume that the random tidbits will become important later but maybe not. I really enjoyed ho..."

Anita, the shoreline they are talking about , which I am sure you know, is the coast off the English Channel. ( approx. where Omaha Beach is) where they could just throw supplies onto the shore for the army. Henry VII ancestors literally owned France at one time, it frustrated VII that it was lost. I do know my English History, which is why it frustrated me to hate this book so much.

Jen K wrote: "I'm a bit worried now that they are mostly dead. I will miss them."

Me too. They gave him a bit of humanity.

Nikki wrote: "Hello - I'm late to the party here but have just got my hands on a copy so I hope you don't mind if I jump in?"

The more the merrier!

Nikki wrote: "I read it years ago while nursing an infant, straight after The Other Boleyn Girl and having mistakenly picked it up hoping for another light shot of Tudor court intrigue and scandal"

Not only would I never recommend it for sleep deprived people, but what a shock expecting something along the lines of The Other Boleyn Girl!!

I've finished Parts 1 & 2. Right now I am finding Cromwell a sympathetic person, but I am sure it is going to change.

Anita, I know how much you love a character study and this seems to be quite a good one as it focus is on Cromwell and I imagine he goes through some changes.

Above we were talking about Cromwell being loyal, and then at the start of Part III they discuss it!

Oh course I did not Mark the page and my Kindle version does not have page numbers, but Richard and Rafe were having a discussion that Cromwell overheard.

Richard comments that is is time for Cromwell to let the Cardinal go.

And Rafe responds: “look, there was no profit for him, ever, in deserting the old man - what would he get but the name of a deserter? Perhaps something is to be got by sticking fast. For all of us.”

I thought that was interesting, especially right after our discussion! Perhaps Cromwell is not so much loyal to Wolsey, but remains ever loyal to himself. Better to be seen as loyal, even if it is loyal to a sinking ship, than seen as a deserter.

Plus, even with Wolsey out of favor, Cromwell is summoned by the king and Anne themselves for meeting. He has connections with the most powerful people in the kingdom. If he deserted Wolsey, would he lose that too?