Support for Indie Authors discussion

Er, uh, *picking nose* I don't know what folder to put this in, so, uh, if it's in the wrong spot *wiping finger on shirt* the mods can move it...

Anyhoo.

Happy New Year.

I have a weird question.

I swear to all I hold holy that years ago I read, in numerous sources, that when writing a novel, the seventh and thirteenth chapters were considered highly important. For some reason. I cannot recall why. I cannot recall where I saw this, either. I can't seem to find anything about it in my Google searches.

Has anyone else heard this? If so, what is so magically delicious about the seventh and thirteenth chapter that can't go into, say, chapter five or twelve?

Or did I dream this?

Or is it a Mandela Effect?

I'll take a wild guess, but I'd guess it was some kind of made-up standard by traditional publishers for pacing purposes. If books followed some structure and had roughly similar chapter count, then it's possible that those points might've been some markers for events that should've been set in motion to assure the pace is good for the rest of the book.

However, I've seen books that had quite a lot of shorter chapters (I may fall there with 60-ish), and I've seen a book that had longer chapters, and ended up around 15 - so even chapter 3 would be too late, let alone 13.

These days, I've heard that the important part is the first 10% or so - the "Amazon free sample" range. I wouldn't be surprised if chapter 7 would hit a similar mark.

But maybe someone knows more.

I have heard of how important the first chapter is, but never the 7th or 13th chapter. There is a lot of information about writing the second act of a novel, so maybe you read one writer's specific writing process.

Tomas wrote: "I'll take a wild guess, but I'd guess it was some kind of made-up standard by traditional publishers for pacing purposes. If books followed some structure and had roughly similar chapter count, the..."

You could be right. I was wondering as I am working on my novel today and going over the thirteenth chapter and trying to recall why it's supposed to be so important.

I try to make every chapter significant in some way. Yeah, I have heard the first 10% thing, too, which is always tough for my writing style. I like to start with small ideas in the beginning and build and build as I go along. Doesn't really fit the Amazon mold.

Destiny wrote: "I have heard of how important the first chapter is, but never the 7th or 13th chapter. There is a lot of information about writing the second act of a novel, so maybe you read one writer's specific..."

Could be that I only saw it in one source. It would have been back in the days that I studied writing using library books, so probably in the mid-nineties to the early 2000s. I just feel I've seen it more than once. Could be that it's an outdated notion, too.

Tomas wrote: "However, I've seen books that had quite a lot of shorter chapters (I may fall there with 60-ish), and I've seen a book that had longer chapters, and ended up around 15 - so even chapter 3 would be too late, let alone 13."

Yeah, that's kind of why I'm curious what this seventh and thirteenth chapter theory of writing actually is, if it truly exists outside of my (sometimes) feeble memory. I've read lengthy books with only a few chapters. I've read short books with many chapters. It seems a one-size-fits-all theory of writing ain't really gonna work for most books, making the theory pointless.

I haven't heard of the seventh and thirteenth being especially important. So, a couple of guesses . . . maybe if you do have a lot of chapters, be sure #7 is good so in case the reader is thinking of dnf'g they instead keep reading. And then the same for #13: give the reader whose interest may be flagging a reason to keep reading.

Just off the cuff, it sounds more to me like a reference to a specific book, such and such chapters are really important.

Or, it may have been one teacher's pet theory. Chapters seven and thirteen better be good or . . . (not sure what the 'or' would be).

Anyway, those are my guesses.

Dwayne wrote: "I try to make every chapter significant in some way. Yeah, I have heard the first 10% thing, too, which is always tough for my writing style. I like to start with small ideas in the beginning and build and build as I go along. Doesn't really fit the Amazon mold."

They had to draw the line *somewhere*. For stuff like epic fantasy, it's a tough fit. In my first draft, the build-up before something really happened took 20 (!!!) chapters. Yes, that's an extreme and a beginner's mistake and I've squished it a lot during the drafting and beta stages but it's still a slower start.

However, the first 10% should be more than enough to give the reader a clear idea about the author's writing style and themes, and thus whether the book will work for them.

I have never heard this.

What I have learned is that important events have to happen at the 1/4 point, 1/2 point and 3/4 point, and the halfway mark should be a huge event in the story.

I have no idea how that all works with chapters 7 and 13.

Eileen wrote: "I have never heard this.

What I have learned is that important events have to happen at the 1/4 point, 1/2 point and 3/4 point, and the halfway mark should be a huge event in the story.

I have ..."

At this point, I'm going to believe it's a dated bit of advice that, a theory of writing that isn't universal enough to fit all works of fiction.

The quarter, half, three-quarters you're talking about seems much better and more sound advice. The one thing I remember reading back in those days that I have always stuck to when novel writing is to make sure at least two events happen in every chapter that push the story forward. They don't have to be major things, just something. "The killer couldn't have been Mike (out of seven suspects) because..." "The coroner found three words written on the victim's chest in Magic marker..." That kind of thing.

The seventh chapter in Lord of the Rings is "In the House of Tom Bombadil." The thirteenth is "Many Meetings," the first chapter in Book Two of Fellowship.

Chapter 7 of Dune is where Stilgar and the Fremen lead Paul and Jessica to their stronghold. Chapter 13 ... doesn't exist because there are only 11 chapters.

Whatever the theory, it's a load of fetid dingos kidneys.

I like Micah's last sentence. In a fit of horror I checked my latest WI which is in the last major revision stage and, horrors chapter 7 is, er, merely a continuation of what came before but where the MC makes a further step forward towards ultimate goal. Chapter 13 is where 2nd MC gets into severe difficulty, in short each chapter has nothing particularly wonderful and merely takes the story on another step.

Frankly, I am with Micah. I am not going to throw out this script merely because chapters 7 and 13 do not do anything of particular importance.

Micah wrote: "Whatever the theory, it's a load of fetid dingos kidneys."

Great. Now I'm hungry again. Thanks.

I checked and my favorite novel only has nine chapters. The seventh isn't any more important than the other eight, either.

Ian wrote: "Frankly, I am with Micah. I am not going to throw out this script merely because chapters 7 and 13 do not do anything of particular importance."

Same here. It's just something that came to mind and I was wondering if anyone else knew of the advice and what exactly it said. I won't be changing my manuscript to fit it, either, in which all my major characters finally appear together in chapter seven (though it's not an overly key scene in the book), and chapter thirteen is part of an investigation that takes place from chapter twelve to chapter sixteen. It's not any more or less important than the chapters around it.

The 7th and 13th would be about the start of the second act and the middle of the book....corresponding to the first plot point and the midpoint in a book with 25 chapters. So yes, you did hear it somewhere, but that is based on that 25 chapter book.

Keeping to that, the second plot point would be at chapter 18 end. Pinch points end of chapter 3, 9, and 21. This is general set up for novels for those who are new to all of this. (See the Plot Dot by Derek Murphy for the full lay out of the 25 chapters in a book)

Sounds like formulaic writing. But there have to be a range of possible forms. Think of classical music. You have the ternary form, the rondo, the sonata-rondo, the sonata, the fugue, theme and variations, the fantasy, and more. There must be variation in written forms that work

Dwayne wrote: "Er, uh, *picking nose* I don't know what folder to put this in, so, uh, if it's in the wrong spot *wiping finger on shirt* the mods can move it...

Anyhoo.

Happy New Year.

I have a weird question..."

Dwayne wrote: "Er, uh, *picking nose* I don't know what folder to put this in, so, uh, if it's in the wrong spot *wiping finger on shirt* the mods can move it...

Anyhoo.

Happy New Year.

I have a weird question..."

Dwayne wrote: "Er, uh, *picking nose* I don't know what folder to put this in, so, uh, if it's in the wrong spot *wiping finger on shirt* the mods can move it...

Anyhoo.

Happy New Year.

I have a weird question..."

I've read a fair number of books on structure, and this doesn't ring a bell.

Everything I've read has been some sort of helpful but taken all together, I've learned to synthesize and come up with a story plan that works for me. In a former job, I worked with a lot of consultants and they often had really specific advice, which sometimes worked, sometimes didn't.

Bottom line, try stuff out. See what works and flows!

B.A. wrote: "The 7th and 13th would be about the start of the second act and the middle of the book....corresponding to the first plot point and the midpoint in a book with 25 chapters. So yes, you did hear it ..."

Good info, B.A. There is a free download, very short.

Formula? Yes, maybe - but like any other recipe it can be scaled up or down, halved, doubled :) as needed.

Um, half a chapter 7, or even two chapter 7s??

Or a third - depending on your word length. I mean get creative, think outside the box. :)

Ian wrote: "Sounds like formulaic writing. But there have to be a range of possible forms. Think of classical music. You have the ternary form, the rondo, the sonata-rondo, the sonata, the fugue, theme and var..."


There is a formula to music. If you don't follow the patterns, it will become nothing but noise. The same with writing. The basic story had a beginning, a middle and and end. Leave one out and it is no longer a story.

Every story needs something that sets it in motion. A change that pushes your MC out of their comfort zone. In the middle, you need to have that succeed or failure mirror moment where the MC has to decide what to so. Then you have the resolution.

If you leave one of those 3 out, your readers will kick you to the curb and vilify you for wasting their time. Every story that you read and you like will have those 3 things in them. The other things like the pinch point, etc just make it better.

Stories are good when you hit all those points, but it is how you get there that counts. We both can use the same formula but when we are done, you will have two very distinct stories that don't even come close to matching.

As more than on guru on writing has said: There are no new plots. What you have is unique characters in unique situations told in a unique way in different settings that set them apart. If you think about it, all great books follow the same pattern but the melody around that pattern is unique to that writer and that book.

So yeah, the plot dot is a pattern, but it's up to us to take that pattern and make it totally our own in what and how we write it using new characters, in new situations, in new settings doing new things. Or if you are lazy, do that Harlequin thing where all the books were almost exactly the same with very little inventiveness to them. When you bought one, you knew that boy meets girl, boy-girl separate, boy-girl get back together, boy-girl misunderstanding, boy-girl clear the air and HEA.

Use the pattern as a guideline but make it yours like the great musicians have done since beginning to compose music. That is how we went from drums to symphonies to hip hop and rap. They took the pattern and made it their own, adding, subtracting and overlaying that pattern with a different melody.

B.A. wrote: "There is a formula to music. If you don't follow the patterns, it will become nothing but noise. .."

I stopped reading there because that is a huge generalization that is based on false assumptions. We'd have to get into a big discussion on music philosophy to really delve into why I think that. I'll simplify it by saying that "music" and "noise" are not quantifiable categories unless approached from each individual person's POV.

Edgar Varese famously said that music is organized sound (and wrote music that incorporated what most would call noise ... as did all the composers of musique concrete).

John Cage took that further by saying music is sound heard. Obviously, people will differ on that opinion (and Cage would just grin and giggle to hear people contest that, I'm sure).

But after listening to and learning to appreciate a wide variety of music, I have concluded that music is sound heard aesthetically. It is an experience, not a quantifiable aspect of a sound. I can hear something and hear music. You might hear the same thing and consider it noise.

As far as writing goes ... I don't know, but I have a feeling James Joyce wasn't following someone else's formula when he wrote Ulysses. Nor was William S. Burroughs when he wrote Nova Express.

Formulas are guideposts and suggestions that can be ignored or not.

The reason I introduced music was to argue that there is more than one formula. Never mind the note sequence; look at a bigger picture. I maintain there is nothing in common in the greater structures of, say, Haydn's sonata form or a Bach fugue. Similarly, with writing, I believe one should not approach writing a novel with a fixed structure in mind, but rather one should get the various sequences in the order required to get the desired effects.

Micah wrote: "B.A. wrote: "There is a formula to music. If you don't follow the patterns, it will become nothing but noise. .."

I stopped reading there because that is a huge generalization that is based on fal..."
Surprisingly, they did follow the 'rules' while breaking some. There is a difference between chaos and order. They kept to order while adding come elements of chaos.

The basic formula for a cake is simple. It's how you take that simple formula and add to it that makes hundreds, if not thousands of different cakes. Same with writing. That was all I was getting at. But remember, you first have to know the rules before you can break them. Most new authors won't or don't take the time to learn what makes a good story before they try to write Ulysses and make it into a muddle that no one can understand.