The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Discussion will start on January

Deepening Shadows
Retaliation
Brief Rejoicing
Coming Troubles
A Dreary Vigil
Gloom Days
The Ordeal

Betsy says she was attached to Kinraid. Sylvia mourning his death. Philip a bit haunted by his decision not to give the message to Sylvia. A riot against the press gangs after the gang rings the fire bell to bring the men into a trap. Daniel is arrested and hung, even though Philip goes into debt trying to defend him. Bell’s health and mind affected by the loss of Daniel. Sylvia agrees to marry Philip.

1. Does Sylvia truly have a choice in marrying Philip?

2. Has your opinion changed about Philip?

3. Is Kester correct in his opinion that the marriage shouldn’t happen?

Good questions! I am looking forward to what you all say to them, because I am not sure.

I am sure about Philip. He is still striving toward the same goal: to make Sylvia love him. And my opinion about him hasn’t changed.

Kester pops in (at last!) with some good points (that our fellow readers already made). And he does give Sylvia a choice. Maybe Sylvia is not clever enough to believe in Kester’s points. Or her sense of responsibility towards her mother is greater.

Not to get political, but recent events made it easy to picture the fervor of the mob, and how it combined anger and glee, how people egged each other on. I was surprised that the actual trial, condemnation, and execution were skipped over.

It makes sense that Sylvia decided to marry Philip for her mother’s sake. For herself, she didn’t care where or how she lived.

I think that, before Kester offered Sylvia another option, she truly didn't feel she had a choice. And she might have been right, since it looks like they probably didn't have any funds left after Daniel's death. Sylvia, unlike many of the young ladies we've read about in previous books, is not a stranger to hard work, and working wouldn't be a stigma for someone of her background, but her mother needs her. She feels that she is in Philip's debt and that marriage with him is her best option. I think she might have taken Kester's offer if she hadn't already agreed to marry Philip, but she probably felt she couldn't go back on it.

Philip feels that he's doing the right thing, or at least that's what he keeps telling himself, but he's still wrong in not telling Sylvia (not to mention the Corneys, who might know how to contact Kinraid's boss) what happened to Charley.

This book is darker than I'd expected. I didn't believe Daniel would actually be hanged.

Lori wrote: "This book is darker than I'd expected. I didn't believe Daniel would actually be hanged..."

If this were a typical Gaskell, that is what I would have thought. Actually, I did briefly believe that. Then I remembered that, during the last section, I thought the story started revealing itself to be more like a Thomas Hardy novel (but 15 years prior). So I started thinking of the book in terms of "what would Hardy do?" It seemed that such a story needs to have Sylvia marry Philip next. So I expected Daniel's hanging as inevitable in order to supply Sylvia the motivation to take that step.
Sylvia's decision to marry Philip is logical based on society at the times and the facts before her. Waiting for the slim possibility of Charlie returning would clearly risk her mother's safety and affect her own livelihood.

Tax-cart. OED

taxed cart n. a two-wheeled (originally springless) open cart drawn by one horse, and used mainly for agricultural or trade purposes, on which was charged only a reduced duty (afterwards taken off entirely).

1795 Act 35 Geo. III c. 109 §2 For and upon every Carriage with less than four Wheels,..which shall have the Words ‘A taxed Cart’, and also the Owner's Name and Place of Abode, there shall be charged and paid the yearly Sum of ten Shillings.
1796 W. Felton Treat. Carriages (ed. 2) II. Suppl. 115 Taxed Carts.
1837 T. P. Thompson Lett. Representative 2nd Ser. 84 The remission of taxation upon what by an odd perversion is called a taxed cart.
1859 ‘G. Eliot’ Adam Bede III. v. xxxviii. 55 The innkeeper..offered to take him back to Oakbourne in his own ‘taxed cart’.

Agreed-this is becoming more grim than I had anticipated, and yet we know it is likely true to life for many families of that era.

My opinion hasn't changed about Philip, as his one supremely selfish act has potentially left a young man press-ganged when he had the right of protection against this. I feel a bit sorry for him, and admire all the hard work he has done for the family, but then was again reminded of his selfishness when he asked Hester to go fetch Sylvia and her mother (and he must have some inkling of how she feels about him) and then left her standing in the rain outside the home, shutting the door on her after taking Sylvia and Bell inside without a word of thanks. That was heartless and inexcusable.

Were the press=gangs really allowed that much freedom to grab men from the streets? Is there any reason that Philip is not at risk-is it because he is neither a sailor nor a labourer? I assume he is a fit young man so was surprised he wouldn't be taken as well.

I believe that legally only mariners were subject to impressment, but press gangs weren’t always careful to observe the rules. Still, they wanted capable seamen to crew their ships, not clumsy landlubbers like Philip.

It was not uncommon for impressment to be legally contested. It was necessary to apply to the Court of the King’s Bench for a writ of habeas corpus. Masters often applied for apprentices or servants who fell afoul of the press gang. Would the owners of Charley’s whaler have sought a writ if Philip told them of Charley’s fate?

Bill wrote: "Tax-cart. OED

taxed cart n. a two-wheeled (originally springless) open cart drawn by one horse, and used mainly for agricultural or trade purposes, on which was charged only a reduced duty (afterw..."

It was only in reading this that it dawned on me that this is where the word "taxi" comes from!

Sylvia does have a choice. However she believes Charley is dead. She said she would never marry Philip if there was one chance in a thousand that Charley was alive. She wants Kester to tell her he isn’t dead but Kester, even though he hates Philip, can’t do that.
Just like Charley took advantage of the situation when Sylvia’s mother was away, now Philip is taking advantage of the situation with Sylvia apparently helpless and no one else to turn to.
If she made the choice of Kester’s offer she would be living in miserable poverty, doing nothing but tending to her ailing mother and all the time hoping that Charley would return. She could possibly marry the butcher ( if he is not already married, I can’t remember) or some other man in Monkshaven, but would that be any better than marrying Philip?
Why hasn’t Charley sent Sylvia a letter telling her he is alright? Going back to Poldark (events occurring in the same time frame), Lieutenant Armitage sends Demelza secret love poems at least once every two months while he is away at sea with the navy. Poldark’s author, Winston Graham, was meticulous with his historical research so I am sure it was possible. Could it be that officers had the privilege of sending letters but pressed men were not allowed to do so? Even if Charley couldn’t write, someone could have done it for him and after 15 months they would have put into port a number of times.
As for Philip, his obsession with Sylvia has ruined him because he no longer cares much about the business or his lifelong friends. The execution of Daniel has changed everything for both Philip and Sylvia. Sylvia is no longer a child, love means nothing to her, just life and death. Philip only lives for her and seeing to all her and her mother’s needs. Even his love for her is now tainted by the fact he is deceiving her every day about Charley not being dead. He is hoping he is dead but that is extremely unlikely and his nightmares about Charley returning are likely to continue. Because of this I would agree with Kester that Sylvia shouldn’t marry Philip but it would be the simplest solution for Sylvia in her present predicament.

Maybe we will find out Charley was taken prisoner, or the ship was icebound or something. Because you are right, otherwise he could have had someone send a letter. But apparently his family hasn't heard anything either. There would have been talk if that happened.
So many more possibilities for missed communications before phone/internet!

I just finished watching Bridgerton and Sylvia's situation reminds me of Marina Thompson. Probably for many families, including the rich ones, marriage was a business affair. If you happened to like each other, great, if not too bad.

What options would Sylvia have to earn enough to care for herself and her mother? Work houses were basically miserable prisons.

Even if Charley had been able to post letters, Sylvia could scarcely have paid the postage (especially if he was stationed in Malta or the West Indies). In Mansfield Park Fanny Price can receive her brother’s letters only because she can use her uncle’s frank.

Bill wrote: "Even if Charley had been able to post letters, Sylvia could scarcely have paid the postage (especially if he was stationed in Malta or the West Indies). In Mansfield Park Fanny Price can receive he..."

I think Charley would have paid it himself because Sylvia was so precious to him. I can’t believe he would expect Sylvia to pay for his letters. Or maybe he just expected Philip to tell her but surely he wouldn’t trust a rival with something so important. If one did arrive that she had to pay for and she knew it was from Charley she might ask Philip for the money.....What would he do.?
In Poldark, there were no payments made by deceitful Demelza when her lover’s (the sailor poet) letters arrived at Nampara, but maybe officers had them paid by the navy.

Deborah wrote: "What options would Sylvia have to earn enough to care for herself and her mother? Work houses were basically miserable prisons."

I would assume some kind of farm work or needlework. I doubt there was a work house in such a remote area, and I assume living expenses would have also been lower, especially if she lived with another lady (even with Alice and Hester, since the guys are gone). But if Sylvia worked, she wouldn't be able to spend as much time taking care of her mother, so marrying Philip looked like the better choice with Bell in mind.

I’ve asked a very knowledgeable source more about naval pay. It was notoriously low pay which is why they were constantly in need of men. In addition, once the boat arrived back in England, the men were released from duty (except officers). Those impressed did receive pay but it was lower than those that volunteered. Finances may be why Kinraid didn’t write.

Edit: in addition the ships could be months between ports with the sailors only paid upon arrival home

Also re letters, Sylvia wouldn’t have been able to read a letter, and I wonder if his family would be able

Deborah wrote: "I’ve asked a very knowledgeable source more about naval pay. It was notoriously low pay which is why they were constantly in need of men. In addition, once the boat arrived back in England, the men..."

In the Aubrey/Maturin books during the Napoleonic War, some sailors got lucky because they were able to seize enemy ships as prizes and share the wealth according to some formula where the higher ups got more. Basically legal piracy. I also got the impression that when sailors got their pay, there were plenty of opportunities in port for them to squander it on women, drink and gambling before they even went home.

It never occurred to me that Charlie could write letters. I just presumed that they wouldn't let illegally impressed seamen like Charlie write any letters since he might alert someone such as his former employers who may have an economic interest and the influence to contest the impressment and get him released when he next returns to Britain. I presumed the authorities would know who the "forced seamen" were and treated them differently as they would be more liable to go AWOL.

Deborah wrote: "Also re letters, Sylvia wouldn’t have been able to read a letter, and I wonder if his family would be able"

Charley would be desperate to get some type of message to Sylvia or his relations. Would he really just give up on trying to let people know he was OK? He was not that type of man.
As a pressed sailor he would be most likely in a ship tracking the French fleet, possibly in the English Channel or in the Mediterranean, so not too far away. Even a message in a bottle might get there. Sylvia can read a few words so I can’t agree he wouldn’t send it just because she couldn’t read it. There are plenty of others around her to help and plenty around Charley to help him.
Another explanation might be that he sent her several letters but due to various circumstances and Sylvia’s bad luck, none of them ever reached her.

There were some very sad episodes in this section, not least the hanging of Daniel and the misery of Sylvia and her mother. One of the most poignant for me was the journey of Hester to pick up Sylvia and Bell from the farm. Elizabeth Gaskell’s poetic depiction of her agony of unrequited love was so moving.

‘ Wistfully she longed for one word of thanks or recognition from Philip, in whose service she had performed this hard task; but he was otherwise occupied, and on casting a further glance back as she turned the corner of the street, she saw Philip lifting Sylvia carefully down in his arms from her footing on the top of the wheel, and then they all went into the light and the warmth, the door was shut, the lightened cart drove briskly away, and Hester, in rain, and cold, and darkness, went homewards with her tired sad heart.’

Brian wrote: "It never occurred to me that Charlie could write letters. I just presumed that they wouldn't let illegally impressed seamen like Charlie write any letters since he might alert someone such as his f..."

This is an extract from an information sheet on the website of the Royal Naval Museum in Portsmouth (see link below)

Men who volunteered to join the navy received conduct money and two month's salary in advance. From this, the sailor was expected to purchase clothes and equipment from the Purser, known as slops. This usually included the purchase of a hammock. One of the benefits of volunteering for the navy was that the sailor would be protected from any creditors if the debt owed was less than £20.
Once a man had been seized by the press gang, he was offered a choice. He could either sign up as a volunteer and receive the benefits that came with being a volunteer (advance payment etc.) or he could remain a pressed man and receive nothing. Some governments issued "Protections" against impressment, including Britain. These were mainly issued  by the Admiralty and Trinity House for specific types of employment. These protections had to be carried at all times and shown to the press gang on demand to prevent the holder being impressed. However, in times of crisis, even the protections became invalid. The order "press from all protections" - known as the "hot press" meant that no person was exempt from impressment.
Additionally, in times of war, other methods of recruitment were used. In 1795, during the French Revolutionary War, the Prime Minister, William Pitt, introduced the Quota Acts to supplement recruitment to the navy. This meant that each county in Britain had to provide a quota of men for naval service. The number of men to be provided was dependant on the county population and the number of seaports it contained.

https://www.royalnavalmuseum.org/

So it might depend if Charley decided to volunteer or if he remained a pressed man. If he remained pressed he would get nothing and would probably find it very difficult to get a message back home. If he volunteered he would get money in advance and indemnity from debts less that £20.

Trev wrote: "Brian wrote: "It never occurred to me that Charlie could write letters. I just presumed that they wouldn't let illegally impressed seamen like Charlie write any letters since he might alert someone..."

He is a pressed man. He would not be considered otherwise until the ship returned home.

So in a way they are prisoners with no rights at all.

Robin P wrote: "So in a way they are prisoners with no rights at all."

Basically it was legal prisoning. The navy needed a large quantity of men. Not enough volunteered due to poor pay. The press gangs were the “solution” to providing the needed men

Deborah wrote: "Trev wrote: "Brian wrote: "It never occurred to me that Charlie could write letters. I just presumed that they wouldn't let illegally impressed seamen like Charlie write any letters since he might ..."

He had a choice. It depends what choice he made.

‘ Once a man had been seized by the press gang, he was offered a choice. He could either sign up as a volunteer and receive the benefits that came with being a volunteer (advance payment etc.) or he could remain a pressed man and receive nothing. ‘

Here is a story of a pressed man from Newcastle who chose to volunteer. He became a coxswain (in charge of the navigation and steering of a boat) on the HMS Victory at the battle of Trafalgar.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/...

I’m a bit confused by the facts that these gangs didn’t always follow the law, as shown by them not caring the Kinraid was protected from them yet they grabbed him anyway. That would make me think that while the navy was supposed to give him the option, they may not have.

Next re letters. First, we don’t know if Kinraid is literate. The next does not indicate either way. We don’t know if his family is literate either. While Sylvia may know a few letters, it’s clear in the text she doesn’t know enough to be able to read. There’s a scene where she asks Philip to read something to her as she says she wouldn’t be able to understand it if she tried to read it.

So if he did send a letter to her, Philip might be the one to read it to her. And it’s a strong possibility what he would read to her may not be what is written.

That would be an interesting further dilemma for Philip, if a letter came and he was asked to read it. There would have been someone on a ship who could write enough to collect someone else's money/possessions/grog ration in exchange for a letter. But maybe Charley had none of those methods of payment. On the other hand, he strikes me as the kind of person who could charm someone into helping him with his romantic story. But there was still no reliable way to get mail sent. The impressed sailors, and even some of the others, may not have been allowed to leave the ship at a port. Ships that met up sometimes exchanged mail, but there might have been restrictions on who could send it. All in all, it's a reminder of how different the world was when people could disappear without a trace for years, even when there was a perfectly good explanation.

Yes, I imagined that even if Charley could write (or have written for him) a letter, and could afford to send it, they wouldn't let him for the first year because they wouldn't trust him yet - he might try to escape the ship.

Re the riot. I read that section just two weeks after the 1/6/2021 "Siege of the Capitol" -- that is all I could think about while reading it. So many parallels! Some people began it "for good" and some people for bad, but then the spirit of the mob takes over! And afterwards people reacted in different ways: pride or shame, boasting about or denying their involvement... Did you incite? Did you participate? The Iron fist of The Law clamps down to teach a lesson.

(Also, the dad had already reminded me of 45, because from the get-go he exaggerated, boasted, changed stories in retrospect to make himself look better.)

Reading that was quite eerie.
Literature!

Bonnie wrote: "Yes, I imagined that even if Charley could write (or have written for him) a letter, and could afford to send it, they wouldn't let him for the first year because they wouldn't trust him yet - he m..."

I read it about the same time and also found it a bit eerie.