Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
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Transcendent Kingdom
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Discussion: Transcendent Kingdom
Can someone please post the pages we are reading? I’m late to the game and need to catch up. Thanks!
Brainchild wrote: "Can someone please post the pages we are reading? I’m late to the game and need to catch up. Thanks!"It looks like this is the book for April, so you're not late at all. (Yay!) I'm not leading the discussion, but suspect there will be more details posted closer to 4/1.
This will be my first time in a discussion. I would offer to help but...maybe next time. I’m looking forward to learning how things happen! I’m just so excited, and I just finished the book! I’m waiting breathlessly for April.
Mod
I'm hoping to get this read in time ei..."
Hello Eva, yes, this discussion will begin April 1st and a reading schedule will be provided the first couple of days after the 1st. We also set up a thread for those who would like to discuss the book in its entirety, foregoing the reading schedule. Hope this helps.
I wouldn’t mind leading the discussion if no one else has stepped up to do it.
Mod
It’s all yours Wanda!
Great! Here is the reading schedule. I'll make it go kind of quick so we have more time to discuss the whole book sooner rather than having to start a separate thread to discuss the whole book. I'm going into this blind. Never read anything from this author and haven't yet started this book nor do I know what it is about. It looks like there are 54+a final chapter based on what I can see in my kindle. Not sure how long each chapter is, but they look short enough so I hope this reading schedule isn't too aggressive. Of course read it and comment at your own pace.Between April 1-3rd we will discuss the first 15 chapters.
Between April 4-6th we will discuss up to chapter 30.
Between April 7-9th we will discuss up to chapter 45.
The entire book will be open by April 10th for discussion.
Question to start off the discussion. Have you ever had to care for a family member struggling with mental illness?
My mom was paranoid schizophrenic and could have episodes of paranoia and depression. What made things more complicated is she was also an immigrant from South Korea living in small town Tennessee, and I grew up in the 90s before “mental health” was a buzzword and going to therapy was a badge of honor and tenant of self care.
I could definitely relate to Gifty in these ways. So far I’m enjoying the book. It’s very easy to read. I am struggling with my feelings towards her mother, but trying not to judge too harshly without knowing the entire context of her past.
Hi Wanda, thanks so much for leading this discussion! I am excited to read and discuss with y'all. To answer your question: My mom recommended this book to me, as several of our family members have struggled with mental illness and addiction as co-occurring disorders. Most recently, we have been supporting my little brother, who suffers from drug-induced psychosis. This definitely makes me relate to Gifty, though being a younger sister is different than being an older one.
So far, I am really appreciating Yaa Gyasi's reflections on the many ways we're "stuck" with parts of the religions we may choose to leave in adulthood. In my own family, I've seen how belief systems and indoctrination complicate how we are able to support our relatives' mental health challenges.
Gabriella wrote: "Hi Wanda, thanks so much for leading this discussion! I am excited to read and discuss with y'all. To answer your question: My mom recommended this book to me, as several of our family members ha..."
Welcome! Glad to have you discussing with us.
I totally agree with what you said about how certain religious beliefs and indoctrination complicate supporting and most importantly seeking treatment for mental illness. I have a friend whose church believes that mental illnesses are demons that are attacking your spirit and if you pray hard enough and believe enough, the demons will be released. In the meanwhile, people are suffering, but thinking that they just didn't pray or believe enough.
I myself am not a very religious person and didn't grow up with a strong religious background. For the people who did experience religion as a cornerstone in their life, how did you find yourself relating or viewing the book? (I recognize that question may be better answered once we are done with the book, but it was on my mind now. I may forget later!)
Another nugget for thought: couldn't fervent religious experiences and addiction possibly conjure the same feelings? Euphoria, being in a state of inner peace, etc. Could being filled with the Holy spirit compare to being high on opiates?
Wanda wrote: "Gabriella wrote: "Hi Wanda, thanks so much for leading this discussion! I am excited to read and discuss with y'all. To answer your question: My mom recommended this book to me, as several of our..."
Hello everyone! I honestly wasn't sure if I was going to participate this month because the synopsis seemed heavy, but I'm excited to be discussing with you all.
Religion, like many things that we partake in regularly & normally (like certain foods, exercise, sex, etc), can absolutely be compared to drugs, because they all produce neurotransmitters that affect how we perceive pleasure. There are a lot of different kinds of "highs", and I do believe the euphoria created by certain religious experiences counts as one of them.
Personally, this book has kind of caught me of guard because of all the parallels to my own life. I was born in NYC but my family is from Jamaica, and there have been problems with anxiety, depression, alcoholism, and domestic violence. Certain members of my family cling so tightly to religion, believing that it can fix all things. I hated going to church as a child and I complained and made excuses incessantly for years until finally, once I hit my teen years, they stopped forcing me to go. I could never reconcile the things being taught in church with the ways the adults around me were acting. It felt like a farce.
While I personally sought out therapy to deal with my own anxiety & depression, the elders in my family refuse to even see the problems as problems, and they continue to fester. Because of this I've had to distance myself. I see my family in Gifty's family in so many ways that it's kind of haunting. There was a point in which Gyasi uses the phrase "generational trauma among diasporic communities" - that really hit the nail on the head.
I started this book yesterday and am currently at chapter 10. I've been wanting to read Yaa for awhile and this was my motivation. I've never taken care of someone with mental health issues. But this has me curious about how the author will handle the issue. Some much family trauma. I was smiling during the pet prayer sessions that she did as a child.
Excited to start my first group discussion, first book with the group, first everything on GR. Hope I’m in the right spot. Reading responses now, and really excited because I loved this book.
April 3-6–Discussing up to chapter 30 now. In this section we learn more about Gifty’s family dynamics. What were your thoughts on the Chin Chin Man, and how and why he ultimately left the family? Do you think Gifty’s mom should have packed up her children and went back to Ghana once she realized he wasn’t coming back?
I think what he did was wrong for sure bc I can’t see willingly abandoning my children, however, I’m sure the residents of a small town in Alabama made being a large built Ghanaian man tortuous. Plus he loved his home country and never wanted to leave it in the first place. I wonder why he didn’t demand his family go back with him or send for his children at least to visit.
I’m still trying to work up some empathy for Gifty’s mom. Her lack of affection or appreciation for Gifty are making this difficult.
Welcome new people! Glad to have you discussing! If you have any questions from the first 30 chapters, feel free to ask them as well! I moderate, but everyone’s questions are welcomes.
I wasn't surprised that the Chin Chin Man left and didn't return. He seemed so unhappy, but do wander way moving to a different area wasn't a thing. I think Gifty's mother is so wrapped up in her own head and dreams about what she thought the USA would be that she can't admit that this may not have been the best move for her family.
The themes of addiction, death and depression hit hard for those of us who have experienced them. The author did an excellent job of going through the emotions one feels upon losing a loved one to this disease and how the void left behind is never filled. I’m grateful I read it, no spoilers until the full book is open for discussion but there is a lot to explore here.
Wanda wrote: "April 3-6–Discussing up to chapter 30 now. In this section we learn more about Gifty’s family dynamics. What were your thoughts on the Chin Chin Man, and how and why he ultimately left the family..."
I feel like this was a complicated situation for everyone. The Chin Chin Man was clearly miserable, especially since he never wanted to immigrate to the U.S. in the first place. I hate the way that he left them, even if I understand the pain that must have motivated him. Life is short and everyone deserves to live a life that makes them happy, but this is a decision that had far-reaching consequences for the people he loved most.
I also sympathize with Gifty's mom's decision to stay in the U.S. She probably weighed the circumstances and decided that the opportunity for her children to live a more successful life was more important than trying to keep them all together. This is not an uncommon decision for immigrant families, and it's never an easy one. The allure of the "American dream" is potent, and like so many others, Gifty's mother seems to have decided that it was the most important thing. I don't think she anticipated that it would come at such a huge cost.
Given her extensive bouts of depression, it seems that Gifty's mom has been torn apart by the consequences of her decisions. I also feel some type of way about her relationship with Gifty, but I also don't know how much love and compassion she's capable of giving after having experienced so much loss. It's just tragic all around.
Niv wrote: This is not an uncommon decision for immigrant families, and it's never an easy one. The allure of the "American dream" is potent..."I echo this sentiment Niv and really feel/hear you on your (and other's) reflections of the book so far. I'm in Canada but my parents were refugees from Vietnam and my brother has a lot of mental health issues and through his life did "bad things" that caused our family a lot of headache and grief. I'm really touched at how universal this story's themes seem to be for some of us!
I agree it's hard to like Chin Chin Man or Gifty's mother, but I think the book did a very good job and evoking the intense sense of isolation and othering they felt in the community. For my parents who I know find Canada's winters miserable and lack people they can speak to, find it quiet, miss the food they had, etc., they tell me that they left Vietnam for a reason, why would they ever live there again?! For me it is very easy to forget how incredibly hard it must be to uproot your life and family and go somewhere so far away and foreign that if you do this, there must be a pretty good reason to do it. My parents, who made some parenting decisions that most of us would think of as quite terrible, tell me little to nothing about their experiences before Canada, I suspect because that past is so painful or violent or scary that they do not want to relive it. I can't resent them completely for their ill-advised parenting when I know they did so much to get me here.
I read the book in full a while back so I don't feel confident of speaking to it too much without spoiling so I apologize in advance but am enjoying this conversation. I preferred Homegoing but found Transcendent Kingdom more relatable even though my experience is very far from Gifty.
Chapters 31-45 open today! This section delves much more into Gifty’s research. I found it difficult to fully wrap my head around the scientific aspect, but I really loved when she admitted that science and religion can complement each other and she posed some questions I had never thought to ask myself. It was a lot to contemplate and I’m not sure I fully grasp it even now.
This section also talks about her past relationship experiences after Nana’s death. She seemed to want people around but didn’t know how to accept that they would want her. Alone was her default mode. What were your thoughts on that? True introvert or defense mechanism?
Hey! I just got my hands on the book today. I was wondering if we will be reading this book throughout the month and then having a discussion at the end of the month like we normally do? Or are we doing things differently?
The entire book opens in April 10 for discussion and we will discuss all of April. More will join as they finish the book. Jump in whenever!
Whole book is open for discussion today! What were your thoughts on the book? Any particular insights? Here are questions I found from a reading guide on Penguin house publisher’s website that we can unpack and get the conversation flowing. Consider the stigmas surrounding addiction, especially opioid addiction, the rates of which are exploding in today’s society. What other stigmas and expectations was Nana responding to by not asking for help to deal with his addiction, and others not doing more to help?
Throughout the book, Gifty struggles to find a sense of community in places where people traditionally find it (school, work, family, church, etc.). What life experiences shape her understanding of community? In what ways does this affect her ability to build relationships with the people in her life (Anna, Raymond, Katherine, Han)?
What messages do Gifty and Nana hear about the intersection of race and poverty in their youth church meetings? How do the siblings respond to the conflation of the two—and what does the assumption that African countries are impoverished or need saving by missionaries suggest about the colonial power dynamic engrained in our society?
I think Nana’s addiction, and death, played even more of a role in her life than she thought. I recently heard about MEsearch, researchers often do research on things that affect them. Also I can’t figure out how to reply to a comment. Will come back for your questions as I figure that out.
Great questions Wanda! I like the pacing of this month's book club too.Wanda wrote: "Throughout the book, Gifty struggles to find a sense of community in places where people traditionally find it (school, work, family, church, etc.). What life experiences shape her understanding of community? ..."
I thought Gyasi really hit the nail on the head with evoking that isolation Gifty felt. I related a lot to Gifty's sense of being untethered to "traditional" community spaces - For me this is a manifestation of being first generation Canadian, a child of the Vietnamese diaspora. In the home my family was so far removed and different from the way my friend's homes seemed in language, behaviour (no shoes in the house, strange work hours because they had to work a lot), smells (fish sauce and shallots), decoration (little to none), etc.,. And when you are isolated like this, it can affect your relationships so deeply - the things that others take for granted like "drawing a family tree activity" or sitting down to Sunday dinner are actually very foreign to oneself.
DeShawn wrote: "I wasn't surprised that the Chin Chin Man left and didn't return. He seemed so unhappy, but do wander way moving to a different area wasn't a thing. I think Gifty's mother is so wrapped up in her..."
I agree with you, DeShawn. I struggled with both of parents in this book.
The themes of substance abuse, religion and family are so intertwined in this book. I agree with Janel that Nana's death played a major role in not just Gifty's life, but her mother's. Nana was the person that the loved in the family and unfortunately his death left a huge hole for them.
I finished this book a few days ago and still processing it - but I will offer a quote that resonated with me from pg 55 ebook version: one tenth of a centimeter is all that stood between pretty good and unimaginable sorrow.
Do you think Gifty’s mom should have let Nana go to be with his father in Ghana when she was asked to send him? Before I found out The Chin Chin Man had requested for his son to stay with him and the mom said no, I kept asking, “Why won’t she let him stay with his daddy...?” I struggled with my dislike of Gifty’s mom. I understand she was doing her best, but ultimately, she was very selfish. She acted as if the children were hers alone and completely disregarded anything her husband wanted. I think the children’s resentment of him was undeserved. She wanted better for them in America, and I don’t see that she got that. I’ve never been to Ghana but I suppose I was looking for a more compelling reason for them to leave their home country other than the mom just wanted to. Do you think maybe pride played a part in why she wouldn’t go back?
Wanda wrote: "Do you think Gifty’s mom should have let Nana go to be with his father in Ghana when she was asked to send him? Before I found out The Chin Chin Man had requested for his son to stay with him and..."
I believe that is where religion plays a big part of the story. I have known many people who believe that they can pray problems away. I've never been to Ghana so, it's hard for me to understand why she so was so against returning or even letting Nana return there.
Especially considering she sent Gifty there while she recovered from her depressive bout.
Finally received my library loan yesterday. It's an easy read..already 150 pages in after 2 days. But I won't join the convo until finished so I can avoid spoilers. But amazingly I had next door neighbors from Ghana a few years ago, with a son and daughter, but in reverse order as the books' siblings. The daughter went on to Harvard and got a PhD in one of those most difficult nuclear/neuro/bio hard science degrees, just as the daughter in the book is achieving at Standford. She was one of less than a handful of Black women in the country to hold such a degree. (Shockingly the daughter gave up science to return to Ghana to become a Christian fundamentalist preacher!!)
Finally got the book today.
In one day I finished chapter 8. I hope to be far enough to discuss by Wednesday night.
Finished today. Need to read the previous comments and cement my own. I suppose the title should have been a clue but little did I know I was wading into the God versus science debate. With a healthy dose of family wide mental illness/depression.
How did the meaning of the title correspond with the book in your opinion William? I took it to mean different things could transcend the idea of Heaven such as drugs or science or belief in the place itself.
Wanda wrote: "How did the meaning of the title correspond with the book in your opinion William? I took it to mean different things could transcend the idea of Heaven such as drugs or science or belief in the pl..."It seems to me that every other Christian church or congregation is named the Kingdom of this or that. Not until reading the book did I even associate the title with the characters religiosity. Gifty's entire story seems to be her struggle to transcend her religious indoctrination, her striving to attain God's kingdom on earth. I don't think she ever does nor does she truly want to. After-all, the last chapter of the book finds her in church staring at a crucifix.
Wanda wrote: "How did the meaning of the title correspond with the book in your opinion ..."As a former heavy drug user, I inferred the title to be about the space between a high and spiritual transcendence - the space where drug use peaks and you feel unspeakably good and maybe "close to god." (then come crashing down and feel deeply/physically/psychologically miserable for several days after)
@William so what did you think of the ending? Did you consider it a fail on Gifty’s part? The indoctrination was too strong and set in at an early age so their was no escape? When I consider the ending, I liked it. She seemed to come to peace that she could have both the kingdom of science and God in her life.
I didn’t like that things with her mother seemed unresolved. The scene where her mom wanders out of her apartment and Gifty finds her outside and her mom says something about God always being present I gather was supposed to be a meaningful end, but that was lost on me.
@tinaathena, thank you for that insight from personal experience. What was your overall take on the book?
Wanda wrote: "@William so what did you think of the ending? Did you consider it a fail on Gifty’s part? The indoctrination was too strong and set in at an early age so their was no escape? When I consider the ..."
I think that the authors tries too hard to have it both ways. To lend legitimacy to both blind fealty to religion and giving a false equivalency to the scientific process and discoveries. As the need for an omnipotent god lessens with each new provable scientific fact, the foundations of fundamentalism crumble. I certainly can see the appeal of religion to comfort one who has suffered the way Grifty's mother has. I assume she suffers tremendous guilt for not allowing her son to leave with his father. But Gifty has had the fruits of a rare education and like most real life scientists probably would have left her religiosity in the dustbin.
Side note: I'm married to an South African double PhD scientist who conducts most of her research with mice. Although she's never admitted to being an atheist, I never heard her mention God or attend a church service. But my wife was raised Catholic and not in the Protestant church of Grifty's West Africa. But there are striking coincidences and similarities in the book and my wife's professional life.
Wanda wrote: "@tinaathena, thank you for that insight from personal experience. What was your overall take on the book?"I think Yaa Gyasi is an extraordinary writer, very captivating. It was very hard for me not to compare it to Homegoing the entire time I read it, because it is pretty high up there and I think it's one of the better contemporary fictions of the last decade at least.
Not necessarily the best character development in this (the man she ends up in a relationship with is kinda' a blip, but based on her intimate relationships it felt like this should have been a bigger deal), but I thought it was a fairly "internal" story so I think that in a way, it checks out that a lot of characters are underdeveloped, it's mostly centred on Gifty's experience and her relationships and how she sees those people in relation to her. I found parts of it incredibly relatable (feeling untethered and "other" in North America) and other parts over my head (academic world). I would recommend, but I wouldn't keep it in my personal library (whereas I still have Homegoing).
@William, it’s cool you were able to relate in such an intimate manner with Gifty’s character. Knowing what you know by way of your wife, do you think science and religion can exist together in one’s mind or do they always have to cancel Each other out?
I don’t know what I’d be labeled, but I’m one of those people that doesn’t believe in Christianity for myself personally. I think whatever people believe to be true is true and I respect it. I do wish I was able to be someone who believed in a Heavenly Father that you could go to for comfort, but it’s just not in me. I believe that God is everywhere including inside of us so I take comfort in that but don’t claim it to be anything more than my opinion which honestly isn’t worth a whole lot in the grand scheme of things. Hell, sometimes I even take comfort in the thought of nihilism. There is nothing and all we do is because we want to and not part of some grand scheme. Interesting conversations to be had on these topics for sure.
@tinathena, I will check out Homegoing in your recommendation. This was my first by Gyasi and it didn’t really motivate me to specifically look for anything else she has written so it is good to know that the other is better (subjectively of course :) ). I agree with you about her relationship with Hans at the end. It almost seemed pointless to mention it for as little fanfare as it got. More energy was spent on her friendship with Anne in college (didn’t she kiss her or something? I felt like there were hints of lesbianism that wasn’t forthright but also led nowhere) and her ex Raymond (names escape me! I think the names were Ann and Raymond). However, I think maybe we are supposed to be happy that she is able to accept someone in her life rather than pushing away another person bc she is too scared to let them in.
Andi wrote: "I finished this book a few days ago and still processing it - but I will offer a quote that resonated with me from pg 55 ebook version: one tenth of a centimeter is all that stood between pretty go..."Why did that quote resonate with you?
Tm wrote: "Excited to start my first group discussion, first book with the group, first everything on GR. Hope I’m in the right spot. Reading responses now, and really excited because I loved this book."@Tm, What did you love about this book?
I'm only on page 100 and I love how the book is moving. I thought Homegoing was incredible. Not far enough to say about this book.
Wanda wrote: "@William, it’s cool you were able to relate in such an intimate manner with Gifty’s character. Knowing what you know by way of your wife, do you think science and religion can exist together in o..."
Well..imho..I think it should. Especially for someone like Gifty who says this, "I grew up only with my part, my little throbbing stone of self-hate that I carried around with me to church...it seemed to me then, to affirm the idea that I was irreparably fatally wrong. As a scientist if she can draw a direct line from church to fatal self hate than she ought to take actions to correct the situation.
I came across this article by Gyasi "White people, black authors are not your medicine" https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...Definitely a thing that I (as an East Asian woman) personally want to be mindful of!
Just finished! Yaa is an amazing author. I felt personally connected to the themes of the book, from childhood loneliness to spiritual/ faith to parental mental illness to absent father. The characters were well developed and I felt connected to Gifty on her life journey. I really wanted something beautiful to blossom from Katherine and Gifty’s friendship/relationship. Her lab work being motivated to help others that suffer from addiction.
By the way, this book just made the longlist for the Women’s Prize for fiction.