The Catholic Book Club discussion

Marcus Aurelius is considered by many historians to have been the best emperor in the history of Rome. What did you know about him, before reading this book? Are you curious to know more about him, after reading this book? Did you know that he had written a book of "Meditations" which he entitled "Speaking to myself," which is considered one of the most important texts of the Stoic philosophy?

I knew of Marcus Aurelius and his Meditations which has long been on my "I really need to find time to read this" list.

I wrote to my friend in a Goodreads message and for This reason my friend is prevented of my reply. I am a Big lover of the cinema and in Spain despite the hatred of the left wing to the Catholic religion still they Broadcasted on Easter ✝️ Peplum or as my friend Julie Davis would say Sword and Sandal movies (i take the chance to send a fond bear hug to my texan friend) One of my favorite movies my friend The Professor Manuel Alfonseca is the The fall of the Roman Empire was produced by Samuel Bronston and some scenes were shot in Spain. The movie was ditected by Anthony Mann and It was played by Stephen Boyd, Sophia Loren, Christopher Plummer (excellent as Comodus much better than Joaquin Phoenix, indeed without the Fall of Roman Empire Gladiator would not exist) and Alec Guiness. In my opinion the Alec Guiness performance (we must remind that Alec Guiness was a convert when he did This performance) was perfect as Marcus Aurelius. We Might say that It is an Interesting aproachment to This historical figure. Of course i do not agree with the movie thesis that Marcus Aurelius decission of disinheriting Comodus. A character can be a Big leader and commiting mistakes we are not Ayn Rand's prototypes perfect and without mistakes the Gladiator ideas it was more stupid desinheritate Commodus to give the Power to the Roman Senate This idea only Will happen with Tacitus in the third century in the period as historians know as military Anarchy. But the Interesting of the movie It is not to desinheritate Commodus the idea based in Willy Durant conception's is manage to explain the greatness of Rome and his Fall there is a beautiful speech with Stephen Boyd, James Mason and Currie Finlay that i would teach in all schools.
In my opinion can not say that Marcus Aurelius was the Last Big emperor despite being a philosopher emperor he has enormous problems even an attemps of division of the Empire as in the Marc Antony's Age with Octavius a lot of problems described in the movie as It happened in the Lloyd C. Douglas's novel "The Robe" that a lot of Calligula's crimes are commited by Tiberius. For instance This thing does not appear in the novel and It is not a spoiler Hispania was invaded by the Mauritanians. Rome after the plague of the II century has never been the same. One of the questions that It would like to ask to Manuel Alfonseca is The Marcus Aurelius's It is not the Fall of Rome even the Empire is so Great to survive Commodus, despite divinizing himself hardly there was persecution to the christians in his reign. For me It is for Marcia the Christian lover of Commodus and the authentic heroine and not Lucille that she is executed at the beggining of Commodus reign besides she and a Gladiator would liberate Rome of This Monster. She would executed by Julianus that It would the authentic villain of the Anthony Mann's movie however This movie save to the future pope Calixtus I he let the marriage between free men and slaves he would fight the montanism and the First antipope and Saint of the history Saint Hypolitte. Marcia even saved to Tertulian. If somebody want to know This historical events i recomend and the person know spanish or french i recomend the beautiful novel "Calixtus the forgotten pope" by Gilbert Sinoue. But the two questions that i would ask to the author is not the Fall or decline would start with Marcus Aurelius but the end of Marcus Aurelius's reign was the end of the máximum expansion of Rome? and second question Does the author think that the western civilization especially Europe live a Fall as Rome of the third century? Thanks to the author for his interest.

Fonch wrote: "But the two questions that i would ask to the author is not the Fall or decline would start with Marcus Aurelius but the end of Marcus Aurelius's reign was the end of the máximum expansion of Rome? and second question Does the author think that the western civilization especially Europe live a Fall as Rome of the third century?"

1. In my opinion, the Fall of Rome started immediately after Marcus Aurelius, with his son Commodus, but the reason for that fall was probably the fact that Marcus named Commodus his successor, rather than doing as the previous four emperors: naming the best man, regardless of their being or not relatives. (They adopted the successor as son).

2. Yes, I'm certain that the Western Civilization is falling. As Rome in the third century? Perhaps, but's it's difficult to make exact comparisons between two different civilizations.

It is a very Interesting topic overall i reply to the First statement. is It not a bit exaggerated to say that the Fall of Rome starts with Rome. It is not for defending Commodus and i totally agree with my friend that Marcus Aurelius got wrong choosing Commodus as his inheritor but Rome before had to Calligula, and Domitianus how the Empire could Fall only with One man (the wit person Who follows This discussion Will see that i did not include Nero despite his evilness and cruelty because some historians Aurelius Victor considered the best years of the Roman Empire although i do not do as Julian the Apostate that in the Renegade by Louis de Wohl makes that Julian made a tribute to Nero). I do not think that Commodus was worst emperor that the previous emperors that i have written. I think that Rome continue having good emperors the Next dinasty had to Septimius Severus and Alexander Severus the most tolerant emperor. There are some experts but not Kovaliov a marxist historian that he hated Alexander Severus a lot considered that the Fall of the Rome Empire happened in the 235 with his Murder. Between them in the period called the military Anarchy there was excellent emperors as Galienus that he was a relevant character in the sequel of This novel if the audirnce let me tell an anecdote my fascination for the Professor started for three reasons for a wonderful article that The Professor Manuel Alfonseca wrote about science fiction, fantasy and Christianity, the second reason was the apparition of the Professor Manuel Alfonseca on the Juan Manuel de Prada's TV programme in Intereconomia now the Toro TV called Tears in the rain (a tribute to Blade Runner) to discuss about science and the movie The final Countdown being the best of the guest and the third reason was for the sequel of This novel Gallienus divided the Empire in three part the Gauls was ruled by postumous and Tetricus and the orient by Odenathus the Zenobia's husband was a very criticized emperor Massimo Manfredi struggled very cruelty in One of the worst novel The Dragons Empire where a group of legionaires finished in the China of Wang Mang before the Han dinasty recovered the Power. I think that the thing Who liked me more was that the author defended to Galienus and he vindicated him he defended the Empire with courage and he made improvement with the roman army the weapons and heavy armor.
But coming back to the Roman started with Commodus simply with him Rome can not increase more. I think that the plague that the author describes in his novel was crucial and after of the plague Rome Lost the best of itself and best generation and the demographic Battle. The second century say a lot of experts that It was One of the best period of the mankind other might be The 13th in the Middle Age.
About the second question the current european reminds me powerfully the romans and the movie that they are dancing in the Lupercalia meanwhile seeing that his civilization dies It is the best description that we are living at This moment i think that a civilization dies when It is dedtroyed inside and This is that It is happening at This moment.

Of course, the Fall of a civilization is hard to date. It's actually a process, not an event, and it can be said to have started (in the case of Rome) long before it was clearly visible. Many historians assert that the fall of the Republic and the dictatorial government of the Emperors was the far cause of the fall of Rome. But it could be taken even before, to the civil wars of the Gracchus and between Marius and Sulla.

What cannot be doubted is that in the time of Marcus Aurelius the Roman Empire reached its maximum territorial size, and from that point on it went down during three centuries.

Manuel wrote: "Of course, the Fall of a civilization is hard to date. It's actually a process, not an event, and it can be said to have started (in the case of Rome) long before it was clearly visible. Many histo..."

Yes i totally agree with this comment although that some exp0erts consider that with the fallen of Roman Republic or the Civil War between the nobility and Gracchus brothers Rome is the fall i would like live the fall in Trajan`s age *laughs* although i think that Trajan had several problems to get money and he included in wills. Abouyt the fall of the Roman Republic i recomend the Heptalogy of the Fall Republic was written by Colleen McCullough (this year i read the last book of the heptalogy) and the Cicero trilogy was written by Robert Harris. About Trajan and the Severus dinasty i recomend the novels of the spanish writer Santiago Posteguillo. Personally i do not get on with Santiago Posteguillo, but i think that he is a good writer.

I have encountered Marcus in many books about the stoics, and many church history and general history courses. I have read several translations of his meditations. And for several years while in university reread it every year.

Steven R. wrote: "I have encountered Marcus in many books about the stoics, and many church history and general history courses. I have read several translations of his meditations. And for several years while in university reread it every year."

Then perhaps you have noticed that some of the things Marcus says in my book are taken from his book :-)