Reading the Classics discussion

how about the Odyssey for a February side read with the second most votes?
the first thing to discuss is which translation we read. they differ quite a bit, most apparently in whether they keep the original verse form or are in prose.
Pope is old, grandiose, poetic prose, and free (public domain), but he exchanges greek for roman god names and such, i dont like that.
Fitzgerald (1961), which i use, is poetic verse, a prized translation, the old standard.
Fagles is the new standard, well-balanced prose, critically acclaimed.
more info:
http://www.editoreric.com/greatlit/tr...
apparently ideally you should read different translations (or the original) ^^

also Alexander Pope had two cotranslators.

Let's do this. It should be fun. The Odyssey comes as close as a work of ancient literature can to appealing to every reader. Some scholars & critics are awfully dogmatic about how Homer ought to be translated but I'd say don't let them bully you. It is a matter of personal taste whether you prefer to spell the proper names with k's or c's - Kirke or Circe. When reading or speaking English I say 'sigh-clops' & not 'kick-clopes' but that's me. Similarly whether you use prose or verse, & if verse whether you like Lattimore, Fitzgerald, Fagles or whomever. If you've not read it before, you could try sampling different translations & choosing which you most enjoy.

I wish I could join in this as I read it years ago and loved it. I now remember nothing of it, alas! I have two ongoing chunksters, one of which is Joyce's Ulysses where The Odyssey could have been very useful. I have, however, other unfinished reads too, so I must exercise self-control and stay my hand. I hope that it will come up again some time. Enjoy!

Sounds like fun! I love The Odyssey. I just read it last year but I did it as a read-along so I was able to get more in-depth. I probably wouldn't read it again but I can probably jump in with some comments.

As for translations, I have a friend who is knowledgable in classical Greek and here's what she said about some of the translators:

"For the Iliad and the Odyssey, imnsho, the only translations I have ever seen which begin to do justice to Homer are Lattimore's. Simple, unadorned, but managing in so many places to capture the feel of the original. I wish I had maintained my Greek, because the original is always better... some things just can't be translated... but Lattimore makes me catch glimpses of the real thing and has a quiet grandeur which I love.

Fitzgerald has a nice translation of the Aeneid, but his translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey are, imho, too florid.. there is too much Fitzgerald and not enough Homer. They are pretty, but way off key.

The Fagles translations repulse me. They are so colloquial, so far from Homeric that they feel more like modern adaptations than translations.

Lombardo takes even more liberties with the text - imho this is definitely more of an adaptation than a translation.

For a very literal translation (most useful if you are trying to translate Homer yourself) the Loeb editions have facing English and Greek pages and follows the word order of each Greek line as closely as possible - I wouldn't use it as a primary text, but it is a neat supplement. (Ex: "The wrath sing, goddess, of Peleus' son Achilles," )

Some people like the Rieu prose translations, and I guess they could serve as an intro to Homer, but I wouldn't use them.

Mandlebaum has a slightly clunky translation of the Odyssey - he is my translator of choice for Dante (though it was a hard choice!), but not for Homer... but, unlike most of the others it *is* a reasonably reliable translation, as I recall.

Pope's translations are an older version of what Fagles has done - an adaptation in the "translator's" own style.. pretty, but not Homer... but, imo, less grating than Fagles and less ornate than Fitzgerald... though Fitzgerald is a more reliable translator.

Butler has prose translations of Homer... pedestrian is the adjective I would apply to them. Rieu's has a little more flavor, but Butler's is sold and straightforward.... not a version I would choose, but there isn't anything *wrong* with it...

Chapman's translation is a classic in its own right, but one I would read for itself not for Homer...

Those are all of the translations I have read... or at least can remember off hand with two days of holiday approaching! HTH"

I love Lattimore. I do like Fitzgerald too but I can see how his translations have been "turbo-charged" (kind of like the Constance Garnett Russian translations, I think). C.S. Lewis has an essay on some of the issues with his translations but I can't remember what it's called. Fagles definitely sounds simplified; I would use his translation for high school students as in introduction to Homer.

I personally don't mind the exchange of Greek and Roman god names, and the variants in spelling don't bother me either but I'm familiar enough with the text that it doesn't throw me off.

In any case, great idea Simon! It will be fun to follow the discussion!

nice to see some jump on board!
interesting opinion om the translations.
Hilary, if you're reading Ulysses already, why not focus on that and the Odyssey first? seems ideal

Agree that Lattimore comes closest to what it feels like for an English-speaking reader to read the Greek - but @ least for me the poetry gets lost. You have to remember that Homeric Greek was an artificial dialect that no real ancient Greek actually spoke. So one reason I like Fitzgerald's 'turbocharged' translation is that it tries to match the speed of the original. Lattimore feels plodding to me.

Bill, which translation do you read now?

It's always a compromise, isn't it, Bill? I can see what you mean by the pacing in Fitzgerald. Lattimore's translation is just so beautiful to me though. I keep meaning to read some other translation, but I always seem to come back to him. I'll have to try to dig up the Lewis essay and see what he thought problematic about the Fitzgerald translation.

I'm reading some poetry in Spanish right now and it's never so apparent as with poetry, the compromises that translators need to make. Form is always sacrificed for content and vice versa. Now if we only had the ability to learn 20 languages ......

@ Simon ~ I see that you're reading Notes from Underground. I'm going to be reading it next month. It's my second Dostoyevsky (the first being The Idiot) and I was a little lost with that first read. I'm going to have to do a little more research into his philosophy in order to understand him better, I think. I've heard Notes from Underground is a response to What Is to Be Done? which in turn is a response to Fathers and Sons. In any case, I hope you're enjoying it.

yes, Cleo, it's our main group read! liking the unsympahetic character's musings a lot so far. my first Dostoyewsky though.
I'd be interested what's wrong with Fitzgerald's translation too. I hope i'll read more translations in the future.

Simon wrote: "Bill, which translation do you read now?"
When I used to teach it in classics in translation I used Fitzgerald, Mandlebaum, & Fagles @ different times depending on availability & cost but I liked it when students had different translations & we could compare them. Same with the Bible. When asked which is the best translation I like to reply with 'Best for what?'

Yes Simon, that does seem to make sense. Unfortunately, my other chunkster is W&P for which I put A Karenina on hold when I was only just over half way through. I wish that I had the facility to read several books at once! I'm tossing and turning over the idea though, as it would probably help with Ulysses AND I do want to reread it some time. As with dear Winnie the Pooh, I must think, think, think ... Thanks for the encouragement though.

Bill, I like that very much: "Best for what?" I can relate to the Bible translations controversy. Over the years, I have heard people say the most ridiculous things. It must be the King James Version or nothing. I even heard one man, who evidently believed the KJV to be the original, plead specifically for the auld book and nothing but the auld book. All other Bibles were heretical!

Cleo wrote: "As for translations, I have a friend who is knowledgable in classical Greek and here's what she said about some of the translators:"

I agree very much with your friend, except that I'm more partial to Fitzgerald than he is. I place him second to Lattimore, and possibly first for first time readers, since Lattimore's language can be a bit complicated to follow at times.

There's also a fairly nice free online translation by Ian Johnston of Vancouver Island University. It can be found at
https://records.viu.ca/~johnstoi/home...

It's not in the same class as Lattimore, but it's free and convenient.

Simon wrote: "how about the Odyssey for a February side read with the second most votes?
the first thing to discuss is which translation we read. they differ quite a bit, most apparently in whether they keep the..."

It doesn't look like there's a group yet on board for the Odyssey. Like Hilary, I'm reading Ulysses along with some other commitments, so am not ready for a re-read of the Odyssey quite yet. If we got a group together for a later and slower (longer than one month) read, I would be up for revisiting it. But not now.

Everyman wrote: "I agree very much with your friend, except that I'm more partial to Fitzgerald than he is. I place him second to Lattimore, and possibly first for first time readers, since Lattimore's language can be a bit complicated to follow at times. ..."

I found C.S. Lewis' essay about Fitzgerald's translation, called Odysseus Sails Again and, while he does try to be understanding with Fitzgerald's translation choices, one of his objections is that the American word choice does not accurately communicate the original to the British. Further Lewis says he has made The Odyssey, "tough, stark, colloquial and rather like Stephen Vincent Benét." He also says, "... having once decided to use an essentially modern, hard-hitting, intimate style, free from all poetic diction, Mr. Fitzgerald has to give up, once and for all, any attempt to represent the ritual, bardic quality of The Odyssey --- all its splendid formulas. I think he made the right choice, and if the price is heavy, we must blame the age, not Mr. Fitzgerald: if he had done something more like Homer in its texture he would have had few readers..." He goes more into detail, and near the end of the essay states, " .... On the whole this version has much to commend it. As a substitute for Homer, tolerable --- and what substitute was ever more than that? As a book to send the old back to Homer and goad the young on to Homer, it is very well worth while."

I love Lewis' balanced comments so you see both the positive and the negative. The whole essay can be read here.

Cleo wrote: " found C.S. Lewis' essay about Fitzgerald's translation, called Odysseus Sails Again "

Interesting and useful. Thanks. I tend sometimes to overlook the importance in translation of the cultural situation at the time the translation is made.

Everyman wrote: "Simon wrote: "how about the Odyssey for a February side read with the second most votes?
the first thing to discuss is which translation we read. they differ quite a bit, most apparently in whether..."

Yeah, I guess we're not enough people to sideread and discuss the Odyssey to a satisfying level this month. I'll read it anyways, since I already started (i'm at book 11), and I love the Fitzgerald translation.
Maybe we'll make the Odyssey a main group read or a real side read some other month, maybe I'll read another translation when the young Dawn with finger tips of rose (this phrase occurs 7 times in Fitzgerald) touches the world again.
I'm not sure why the Ulysses readers don't read the Odyssey in parallel, as it seems such an important influence, but maybe i'm misjudging that.

Here's the one big thing I found worth discussing so far:
I find it interesting how much influence the gods have on the story. Odysseus and Telemakhos would never succeed without Athena and other gods helping them several times. In a way, that diminishes Odysseus' accomplishment. Of course gods also create some of the obstacles and adversities (ex: Poseidon's storms).
But even on the psychological level the gods serve to explain the world and are deemed the cause of good or bad luck:

some god’s compassion set a big buck in motion to cross my path - a stag with noble antlers

Homer (2010-04-09). The Odyssey: Translated by Robert Fitzgerald (Vintage Classics) (Kindle Locations 2942-2943). Random House. Kindle Edition.

In the Odyssey this is often justified, the gods actually influence the world a lot and sacrificing to them for safe travel and other favours is a sound practical choice.

Simon wrote: " maybe I'll read another translation when the young Dawn with finger tips of rose (this phrase occurs 7 times in Fitzgerald)"

Only 7?

One of the core elements of Homer's work is repetitive phrases. For a long time this was thought to be a weakness, but when Milman Parry did his groundbreaking work in oral epic poetry, he realized that the use of such repetitive phrases was critical to the success of oral bards. They did not memorize their works in full, but memorized the stories and a various episodes and bunch of key phrases that fit into the rhyme and scansion scheme (in, of course, the original Greek scheme Homer used) and could be strung together without the need for thought while the bardist was working out his next lines.

So these repetitive phrases aren't an artistic triumph necessary for a bardist to be able to sing his tales for hours on end.

(There's a lot in the Iliad and Odyssey that reflects their oral bardist tradition. For example, in the Iliad there's the "catalog of ships" which many modern readers just skim over, but which was essential to the original singer because of course everybody who he was singing to as he wandered from palace to palace wanted to hear who THEIR heroes were and how many men and ships THEIR community had sent to the war. So everybody had to be included!

(Politicians, of course, do the same thing today, only much less subtly, praising the community they're speaking in and audience they're speaking to and desperately hoping they don't mix up which group and place they are speaking to and in today. Which explains the need some have for the perpetual teleprompter.)

I would love to be involved in discussing The Odyssey too, as a side read or a main read, whatever we end up doing.

I own both a Shewring and Fagles translation and I read the first half by Shewring and the second half by Fagles.

I read it at the end of October but I have lots of post-it notes in each book with my thoughts and it’s still pretty fresh in my mind.

@Everyman I also read that about the repetition in Homer and found it very interesting. The constant repetition of Dawn with her rosy fingers was driving me crazy as I read and led me to Google the phrase, which led me to learn about the oral bard tradition. It’s fascinating! And incredible. It is such a skill they had, to be able to perform such lengthy poems whilst often making up so much on the spot.

I finished it a few days ago and was quite amazed with the Fitzgerald translation (my first read). I'd be open to discuss it, too. It seems like many people didn't find the time to read it this month though.
Further up, I made some points. The repetitions I found interesting and sometimes funny, never ennervating. At the end I was quite touched by Odysseus' return and welled up several times. Oh and this line made me laugh (occasionally there's some real humour), i love the bold translation:
“By god, old Iros now retiros.”

I've been reading Lattimore's translation of the Odyssey. I've read Fagle's and Lombardo's translations and enjoyed both of them, but I've been blown away by Lattimore. It's such a beautiful translation. I've read that his translations can be difficult and stiff, but I found his Odyssey to flow beautifully. It's the translation I've enjoyed the most. I would also like to read Rodney Merril's translation of the Iliad and the Odyssey. He wrote his translations using dactylic hexameter.

Robert, thanks for the translation comments; they are very helpful. While I have read Fitzgerald's Odyssey, Lattimore's translations are so beautiful! I always mean to try other translators, but I start one and I always end up closing it and going back to Lattimore.

I'm not sure why his translations are considered difficult. Perhaps people enjoy simpler vocabulary ...... that's my guess ...... but a simpler vocabulary would take some of the beauty and grandeur away from the poem.

Cleo wrote: "Robert, thanks for the translation comments; they are very helpful. While I have read Fitzgerald's Odyssey, Lattimore's translations are so beautiful! I always mean to try other translators, but ..."

I have not read Lattimore's Iliad yet, but I have his translation and a complete audiobook of his translation. I have read Anthony Verity's translation of the Iliad. I'm not an expert on judging translations, but I found Verity very powerful. Like Lattimore, he keeps the formulaic nature of the epic, repeating every epithet, formula, etc. I have also read a revised, updated version of Butler's Iliad translation. The original was published in 1898, but it has been completely revised by Gregory Nagy of Harvard for his class the Ancient Greek Hero. Nagy retranslated about a third of Butler. He also put key Greek words in parentheses so students could track the words. He took out the Latin names for the gods that Butler used and replaced them with the Greek names. The translation is available on line for free at the Center for Hellenic Studies website.

Robert wrote: "Cleo wrote: "Robert, thanks for the translation comments; they are very helpful. While I have read Fitzgerald's Odyssey, Lattimore's translations are so beautiful! I always mean to try other tran..."

I loved Lattimore's The Iliad translation better than The Odyssey ..... hopefully you feel the same after reading it ..... I think you're in for a treat.

I read part of Butler's translation of The Odyssey and was completely repulsed. From reading some of his comments, he struck me as kind of a nut case. He also seemed to think that he could translate it better than Homer could write (tell) it, which completely put me off. I'd like to read it one day as comedy, but not for a serious read.

Cleo wrote: "Robert, thanks for the translation comments; they are very helpful. While I have read Fitzgerald's Odyssey, Lattimore's translations are so beautiful! I always mean to try other translators, but ..."

I think what I like most about Lattimore is that he gives me the majesty that I associate with ancient Greece. Fagles and Lombardo don't sound to me as though they are singing in the voice of the civilization that built the Parthenon and gave us Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Euclid, and so many other majestic thinkers. I don't want a Greek epic to sound like Georgette Heyer!

Everyman wrote: "I think what I like most about Lattimore is that he gives me the majesty that I associate with ancient Greece. Fagles and Lombardo don't sound to me as though they are singing in the voice of the civilization that built the Parthenon and gave us Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Euclid, and so many other majestic thinkers. I don't want a Greek epic to sound like Georgette Heyer!
.."

Exactly!

Ah, we gazed at the Parthenon in all its peachy sunset glory. Words sometimes fail; even the best, but they must be the best ...