Literary Fiction by People of Color discussion
Buddy Reads
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Pachinko
Correction: May 1-7 Book I
May 8-14 Book II
May 15-21 Book III
After May 21st the entire book is open for discussion
52 pages in and there is no way I can stick to any schedule. This is a book I dont want to put down.
I have this book here :) I have a few books I am reading now, but will start this this week. If I can, I'll stick to the schedule, but I often find it breaks a book up too much to do this unless I can manage to read only one chapter per day. If, like Tricia, I like it too much to limit myself to that, or if I find it spoils the flow, I'll end up reading ahead.However, I am reading the book I nominated, The Mountains Sing starting in the next day or so because it's due back at the library.
Karin. My name is Sean. (I share my Facebook account with my lovely wife, Tricia.)You are very welcome to join this discussion. Participate as you can.
By the way, The Mountain Sing sounds awesome.
Reading Group Question #1: "History has failed us, but no matter. " How does the opening line reflect the rest of the book- and do you agree?Sean G: I'm sure this answer will change as we go along. What does that quote mean to you at this Beginning stage?
Going to start tomorrow, was going start sooner but just got back from a bday trip.
Just checked out the ebook from my library will start reading this week. Happy birthday Lotty!
Tricia wrote: "Karin. My name is Sean. (I share my Facebook account with my lovely wife, Tricia.)You are very welcome to join this discussion. Participate as you can.
By the way, The Mountain Sing sounds awesome."
I'll try to remember that you're Sean :). I hope to start this book next week, if I can get through some others that are due or overdue.
I've read this book before so will wait until the end to chime in but this book is one of my all time favourites!
122 pages in and I'm loving it. Many have called it a favorite.
I finished Book 1. A line that pierced through time and culture for me was this" "Be perfect child. Every Korean must be on his best behavior over there. They think so little of us already. One bad Korean ruins it for thousands of others." (Page 84)As a african African American raised by upward mobile black parents in the 70s, this is sounds like my parents, grandmother, church elders and my parents neighborhood friends. We were to dress correctly, speak correctly, behave correctly, associate correctly... Everything we did would be a reflection to non blacks who we lived so near to of who black people were and if black people were beneath them. Be 2 times as good.
Thanks all for the birthday wishes! The first line of the book, I believe sums up pretty much all of Korean history specifically with families during this time. For example, my maternal grandmother does not have a family registry beyond her father. Also, most family registries were destroyed after the Korean War so most families only know their history by what was told to them from relatives.
Rereading this book is like coming home to me. Very similar to the stories I've heard growing up. My grandmother was just a child but she still remembers being forced to go to a school and learning Japanese and given a Japanese name. They really tried to wipe out anything Korean because they saw Koreans as less than and dirty.
It seems not very different from the erasure of the African history, name and family in coming to America because black was consider less than, dirty, etc. The powerful piece, Lotty, is ..."but no matter." Despite all that was done, here you are a living testament of the history that they tried to destroy. Your living and breathing defies it all.
When I think of reading books like The Warmth of Other Suns or Gyasi's Homegoing and reflect of the the journey our people have gone through, I see my being as a testament of all who came before me. It also makes me feel a responsibility in what I do with my life to them.
What do we think of the Book 1 characters...Hoonie? Yangjin? Sunja? Handy? Isak?
Any thoughts on Sunja's relationship with Hoonie?
I meant Sunja's relationship with Hansu?
OK... I'm on page 191 and this book is terrific and terrible. I'm devastated.
3. What role does shame play in the novel? (Let's revisit this question as we go through the book.)
You're really carrying all this book club this month!! I'm sorry I'm not reading it in tandem but I'll share some thoughts on the book nonetheless so the efforts don't go wasted!The comparison to Homegoing is apt! (I haven't read Warmth of other suns but really want to) This book is like a vast multigenerational tour and for me was a story that laid out the immediate and long term violent affects of displacement and forced migration.
From what I recall, shame played a big role in the book ... it's easy to shake your head and say "just ask for help!" when you're reading, but I think shame is also a tool of self preservation at times. When it feels like all you have is your dignity, I could understand the impulse to guard it.
I'm sure everyone is reading on thier own availability. I couldn't touch it yesterday because of Mother's Day.I think a shameless world suffers for not having perimeters. Sunja's shame of one act followed her for decades. I think she must've missed a major Christian message... that she could be forgiven and not be defined by unknowingly sleeping with a married man when she was younger.
I was trying to stay to schedule because of the books length and I have 2 other books (Minor Feelings and The Making of Asian America) I want to complete this month. This book is so good that I have to slow myself to stay within the schedule.
Reading Group Guide 3: "Thier eldest brother, Samoel, had been the brave one, the one who would've confronted the officers with audacity and grace, but Yoseb knew he was no hero.... Yoseb didn't see the point of anyone dying for his country or for some greater idea. He understood survival and family." What kinds of bravery are shown by different characters, and what motivates this bravery?
Hi, sorry I've had my family visit but I will be back on track!Shame plays a big part of the story because it's part of filial piety which is basically a virtue that has been ingrained in Korean culture due to Confucianism. Any choice they made, they knew would affect everyone in their family. Still happens today and even with my family.
I'll add more as soon as I catch up!
OK. I honestly don't know a much about Confucianism. Many of the attitudes seem familar in a devout christian family, which was my upbringing to a degree. I will need to read up on Confucianism.
4. How does being in exile and being perceived as foreign affect how Sunja’s family members see themselves?
I've been trying to do the audio version bc the ebook was taken and that was a mistake bc gosh I am not an audiobook person. I realize I can't listen to another person read, I just don't focus. sorry I've been inactive. I'm going to try to catch up might just buy it.
I'm no good with audio either. I cant focus and feel like I dont know what happened.
5. Sunja is told early on that “a woman’s life is endless work and suffering … For a woman, the man you marry will determine the quality of your life completely.” How do the women in this book have or not have agency? And how do they struggle to reclaim it?
7. Did you know much about the Japanese occupation of Korea from 1910 through the end of World War II before reading this book? Or about Korean culture in Japan?
The women have no agency when it comes to the obvious, owning land, making money decisions in the family, etc. but I also do see that they have the most agency when it comes to making the most important decisions for the family, even if that means sacrificing their needs. As much as Korean culture is embedded in patriarchy, I've always seen that the women in the family are always the heart and soul of the family.#7 is easy for me to answer, haha. I've known for obvious reasons and my entire life I've heard stories of both my mom and Dad's side. I most recently explained to my significant other who is white more detailed history on Japan's colonization of Korea and he was shocked. This is one of the things I love about this book is that the story could be anyone's family story, Lee did a great job on being as historically accurate as she can be.
I had no idea about the Japanese occupation of Korea. I appreciate how fiction can teach us about fact. I do think the woman as the backbone and low key power wielder is another similarity to the African American experience. I love the agency of Totoyama in raising her 2 sons after her husband left (Haruki and Daisuko's mother).
I'm past page 400 now and all I can think is that so much of the shame is unnecessary.
I love this question...8. “There was more to being something than just blood,” Min Jin Lee writes. How do the characters grapple with this idea throughout the book?
9. The epigraph for the third section of “Pachinko,” from Benedict Anderson, describes a nation as “an imagined political community.” Do you agree?Sean: I totally agree. My christian background always made me believe the world is of God. Nation is of man. Looking at America today, some make patriotism look like idolatry which was said by someone in this book... maybe Isak or the pastor he worked under. And his does one begin to care about Nation (say Japan) when they will never be recieved as anything but a Korean...
It mirrors the difficulty of patriotism in America for a black man who embraces the country but never feels embraced by the country.
I couldn't find the link but I encourage you guys to check on the most recent Red Table Talk about Confronting the divide between Black and Asian Americans. It's main guest are Lisa Ling and Michael Eric Dyson (who I love) and in the second half Min Jin Lee participates. Really good conversation.
10. Which character throughout the four generations do you identify with most, and why?
Tricia wrote: "7. Did you know much about the Japanese occupation of Korea from 1910 through the end of World War II before reading this book? Or about Korean culture in Japan?"A few years ago I began reading historical fiction in general to learn about identities different from my own. Historical fiction creates a space in a nation's narrative for me, an outsider. My first encounter with Japanese colonisation of Korean people was through the stories of the crimes committed against the bodies of Korean 'comfort' women and, soon after that, a poem, Camelia Lady led me to trot music and then to Pachinko. Reading the historical fiction prepares me for the historical readings that can be difficult to read without a fictional character leading from a novel to the actual accounts. I also learned through reading articles on trot music and the creation of Korean newspapers that the children born both Korean and Japanese are considered foreigners in both countries more or less which is difficult in a nation where lineage and family trees are often more valuable than money. I don't know everything, but it's a start.
Tricia wrote: "9. The epigraph for the third section of “Pachinko,” from Benedict Anderson, describes a nation as “an imagined political community.” Do you agree?Sean: I totally agree. My christian background a..."
I agree as well and really like Sean's comment. I might add Derek Walcott's quote from Star Apple Kingdom: "I had no nation...but imagination." Each day we construct our identity anew based on our current environment.
Tricia wrote: "10. Which character throughout the four generations do you identify with most, and why?"I don't necessarily "identify" with a character as much as I identify with what the pinball parlour represents, upward mobility in a place where you are despised. So, in that case, Mozasu. He faces his reality at the bottom and digs up from there. He tries to give his son more, but what he has built in the dirt, is how Solomon ends up making a living. Reality in a colonised space.
Tricia wrote: "Reading Group Question #1: "History has failed us, but no matter. " How does the opening line reflect the rest of the book- and do you agree?Sean G: I'm sure this answer will change as we go alon..."
In a name: Solomon, for me. Mozasu doesn't try to change history because it's a moving target. He redirects the historical trajectory so that Solomon has an opportunity to see how to move forward even if it's painful. Lee Min Ja wrote "Camellia Lady," a poem/trot song banned in 1968: "everyday we have to endure whipping that sends pulsating pain down to the bones because we're servants slaves and puppets. How humiliating and mortifying."
Tricia wrote: "10. Which character throughout the four generations do you identify with most, and why?"I will say, that I identified with them all. Personally, Solomon because I know what it's like for a family to want more for their children. Mozasu wanted more for his son and did not want him to work in Pachinko and I can relate, coming from a family that had a small business (liquor store) so that they could provide a good and educated life for their kids. The pressure to uphold that dream from your immigrant parents and growing up in a country where you were the only Asian child in your elementary school, is not easy and Solomon definitely experienced that in his own way with the deal that led to him being fired.
Every character in the book reminded me of at least one family member. I know a Kyung Hee who is like a second cousin of mine, Sunja reminded me of my great grandmother, Goro an Uncle and Isak is very representative of how much Korean people value Christianity.
I'm so glad to have read this book again, there were a lot of things that did not resonate with me but reading it again, really hit harder in my soul. Possibly due to the current and past violent attacks towards the AAPI community in this country. Also, the first line in the book means so much more to me now. Also, I think Lee did a great job of writing Christianity as just part of the story and not the main force behind most of the families decisions. She did a great job of allowing the characters that weren't Christians, to be curious about it, if that makes sense.
@Lotty,It is a heavy weight. I know my father definately did very hard work so that my brothers and I could have better and be better. In Minor Feelings Cathy Hong talks about the pressure many Asian Americans feel to become something that can lift the family financially, which she did not have because her father wanted to be a writer or artist when he was young, but had to sacrifice that for the family. Did you personally feel you need to follow the money over your dreams and would you say that was pressure from family. I know my dad tried to direct me toward science (buying me microscopes) and computers (bought me my first computer with a subscription to a programming magazine). My Uncle was a small neighbor grocery store owner and although my mom was an accountant she worked in his store to help.
I really had great connections reading this while also reading The Making of Asian America and now Minor Feelings simultaneously. Was religion big in your upbringing? Did it clash with the Confusism that you mentioned as integral in Korean culture?
@Cy, I love your statement "Reality is a colonized space." Amen to that.
I need to read Minor Feelings soon. It is so true that Asian families expect their children to lift them financially. My upbringing was more Americanized very similar to Phoebe's family (Solomon's GF). Even though we were Americanized, still had the same expectations to bring up the family financially but as a woman, it was more the pressure to marry well AND have a good career.I definitely grew up with the expectation to become a lawyer, nurse or doctor but that wasn't me and I was more of a Liberal Arts type person which eventually my family gave up on me becoming an academic and put more pressure to marry which didn't end well either because I married so young.
I did grow up very religious but that all ended for me after a missionary trip to Africa. I didn't feel like it was my place to push a religion on people who lived they way lived thousands of years and we were telling them that they'll go to hell if they didn't accept Jesus Christ into their lives.
I think Christianity can be very similar to Confucianism, filial piety and women as second class citizens are two examples that I can think of.
Question: Etsuko, Totoyama and Hana were all essentially outcasted by their own society even though they were Japanese. Do you think that if they weren't outcasts, would they have been involved with Koreans?
This is a great question. I dont recall Totoyama being involved with a Korean, but I feel Etsuko and Hana both would...maybe. I feel like the only reason this is a question is because thier society said Japanese were above the Korean and sometime what's forbidden is desired. Interestingly Cathy Park Hong speaks of this kind of thing in Minor Feelings. She talks of white guys interested in Asian women. She said these white guys were the type that got beautiful asian women that equally beautiful white women would have nothing to do with. I found that commentary interesting because it sounds familar. My wife is Italian and I have heard it said in black circles that black guys get with white women who aren't on thier same plane.
Etsuko was married and chose to be involved with a Korean and it was the Korean her won her loyalty. I believe Hana truly loved Solomon but didn't know how to be there. Society didnt push them together. Society only created hurders. Koh Hansu operated above society.
May 1-7 Chapters 1-7
May 8-14 Chapter 8-14
May 15-21 Chapter 15-21
After May 21st the entire book is open for discussion.