Laurie R. King Virtual Book Club discussion

Happy June everybody!
I fell in love with Dracula (and its echoes and ripples) after performing in the play The Passion of Dracula in High School, having watched a rerun of the sexy Frank Langella version as part of our prep. After another play and a couple more movies, I finally read the book and was struck by how theatrical it was, how the monologues could whisper in your ear in the night, and everyone's reaction would be different, but each would be impacted.

It's not surprising that Dracula felt theatrical to me--Bram Stoker was a theatre guy. Born in 1847, Bram Stoker became interested in theatre as a student, went on to become a theatre critic, then Acting Manager and Business Manager of the Lyceum Theatre in London. He also worked for Henry Irving, the most famous actor of his time, and based many of Dracula's mannerisms on Irving. He actually hoped Irving would play Dracula in the stage play!

Written in 1897 by a church-going Victorian man, Dracula presents as a blood curdling murder-mystery/horror adventure on the surface. It is somewhat tedious in its style, in keeping with the time s(more on that later). Yet scholarly opinions vary on underlying themes and what the book is 'about' on a deeper level, and I think there's room for them all. I will pose a few thoughts here and more later!
Remember--no spoilers please until the 10th!

* Dracula breaks from other melodramas of its time! We may be familiar with the British idea of "knowing your place" or station in life and the little class mobility. You were born into that class because you were supposed to be there. Moreover, 'ugly on the outside' meant 'ugly on the inside', and villains were hideous, warty, disfigured, mangy, etc and NOT rich. Enter the wealthy, charming upperclass Count! In addition, the ideas of redemption, the impermanence of fate, being able to change the course of one's own destiny, and a heroism born not of purity of spirit but of familiarity of darkness ripple through the novel (and this was after he had changed it for fear of censors!). I encourage you to notice these quiet revolutions and instigations that we now take for granted.
* In what ways does Stoker prepare the audience for a more typical-of-it's day horror story (Dicken's Signal Man, RLS's Body Snatcher, Conan Doyle's ghost stories, Leroux's Phantom of the Opera...)?
*Stoker was also a journalist, and I think the epistolary style is very effective. Whose POV do you believe? Who do you like/dislike/feel affinity with, and how does that affect your reading of the story?
* What do you think of the women?
* Some of the writing is "now" (diaries, letters) and some is "reflective" (memoirs etc). Why? How does that impact how you feel about what is happening, the character who is writing, and the characters they write about?
Enjoy!

Holly wrote: "Happy June everybody!
I fell in love with Dracula (and its echoes and ripples) after performing in the play The Passion of Dracula in High School, having watched a rerun of the sexy Frank Langella ..."

I got a tingle up my spine just reading ...the monologues could whisper in your ear in the night...

So looking forward to this discussion. :)

Me too! Thank you so much, Sabrina.
I have more discussion prompts for as we get deeper into the book and the month!

To answer Holly’s questions:

Could not really comment on the first one—what Stoker does to prepare the reader for the story, having not read the other ones referred to.

I am not fond of the epistolary style although it worked well in telling the story from multiple POVs. Given the length of the monologues, it seems a stretch that the writer could recall verbatim what was said. Mina’s dairy was the most believable and I did like it, but I was most charmed by VanHelsing. As a teacher of English to speakers of other languages, I found his twists of English delightful.

My feelings about the women were mixed. While I liked Mina and her friend (blanking on her name), I could not identify with them or the way they were treated by the men until the three pairs set off for the castle toward the end. Mina and VanHelsing were equal partners.

I’m glad I invested the time in reading this in prep for Castle Shade. Having read the first two early release chapters of that it will give me a deeper understanding of Shade.

Thanks so much, Dayna!
Yeah, the woman stuff is historically interesting--it is so "victorian trope", in that women are virginal victims or evil seductresses...until Mina comes into her own (not wanting to give anything away). It has been postulated that Stoker wanted to move forward the idea of women as people with agency and heroic potential.
I am going to post more questions and prompts as we go. You might enjoy reading some of the plays...
And the 1977 BBC version is said to be the 'closest' of the films (it's Les Klinger's fav, too!)

The very Christian slants of everyone but Dracula surprised me. Reading it felt to me like I was being proselytized to. It was interesting to finally read the book- but after 4 years of a vampire in the White House, I just want to read happy stories.

Yes! (I am reading almost all fluff myself!). Some scholars speculate that its Christian slant is representative of a xenophobic agenda; others talk about the intense undercurrent of sexuality (and the fact that Stoker's married life was "almost sexless") coupled with his friendship with Oscar Wilde and his support of the anti-gay legislation (even as he visited Wilde in jail!) lends itself to the idea that he was a very repressed gay man, and the heavy Christianity was in part a response to that. Lots of interesting literature on that!

Dena wrote: "The very Christian slants of everyone but Dracula surprised me. Reading it felt to me like I was being proselytized to. It was interesting to finally read the book- but after 4 years of a vampire i..."

Interesting take, Dena. I wonder if this particular tale is the origination of the use of communion wafers, holy water, and crucifixes as weapons against vampires? And just a crucifix but not a simple cross?

Holly wrote: "Yes! (I am reading almost all fluff myself!). Some scholars speculate that its Christian slant is representative of a xenophobic agenda; others talk about the intense undercurrent of sexuality (and..."

Holly, I had not heard this about Stoker. Thanks for sharing. He almost “doth protesteth too much.”

Dayna wrote: "Dena wrote: "The very Christian slants of everyone but Dracula surprised me. Reading it felt to me like I was being proselytized to. It was interesting to finally read the book- but after 4 years o..."
The only vampire stories I may have read (oy! my memory) are by Anne Rice. I was aware of silver bullets (or maybe those are to kill werewolves?) and stakes to kill, a cross & garlic to repel.
I'd never heard of communion wafers or holy water. Maybe those only work against Christian vampires. 🤨

Holly wrote: "Yes! (I am reading almost all fluff myself!). Some scholars speculate that its Christian slant is representative of a xenophobic agenda; others talk about the intense undercurrent of sexuality (and..."
Interesting. I haven't read anything about Stoker. Thanks for that info.

Dena wrote: "I'd never heard of communion wafers or holy water. Maybe those only work against Christian vampires."

There is actually a joke about a Jewish vampire, confronted by a cross, who says in Yiddish "That's not going to help you."

I read Dracula ten years ago, but had forgotten large parts of the story. I don't remember it as being nearly as good as I found it this time!

Despite being Jewish myself, I didn't find the story overwhelmingly Christian. There did not seem to be a lot of discussion of Christianity per se, just the use of Christian holy objects to block the vampire. (And garlic, which is pretty non-denominational!) Christianity was, after all, the dominant and influential religion of Victorian England. As Les Klinger says in his introduction to The New Annotated Dracula,

The Empire existed, argued its supporters, not for the benefit--economic, strategic, or otherwise--of Britain, but in order that "primitive" peoples, incapable of self-government, could, with British guidance, eventually become Christian and civilised.

I think Stoker's use of Christian objects simply reflected his background and his readers' milieu.

Lenore wrote: "There is actually a joke about a Jewish vampire, confronted by a cross, who says ..."

😂

I think Stoker's use of Christian objects simply reflected his background and his readers' milieu.

..."

Yes, I think it's easy to forget how steeped the culture was in Christianity at one point - think of all the murder mysteries with their references to the vicar and so forth. For me the surprise was that an English writer, likely to be Anglican so on the Protestant side, would be referring to communion wafers, holy water, and crucifixes, which are much more Catholic. Even if they are present in Anglican churches, they are usually not invested with the same power in the same way as Catholics. I guess he was a high church type.

Totally! Stoker was also very involved in his Church.

Dayna wrote: "Lenore wrote: "There is actually a joke about a Jewish vampire, confronted by a cross, who says ..."

😂"
AHAHAHA!!! love it!!
Did you ever see "Dead and Loving It" a Dracula film starring Lesley Nielson?

Lenore wrote: "I read Dracula ten years ago, but had forgotten large parts of the story. I don't remember it as being nearly as good as I found it this time!

Despite being Jewish myself, I didn't find the story ..."
YES! I know a lot about Melodrama, which of course is rooted in the same time/place, and only last week got my Annotated Dracula!! It's so great.

Lenore wrote: "Dena wrote: "I'd never heard of communion wafers or holy water. Maybe those only work against Christian vampires."

There is actually a joke about a Jewish vampire, confronted by a cross, who says ..."

This is soooo funny! Did you ever watch "Dead and Loving It"? Lesley Nielson

Dayna wrote: "Dena wrote: "The very Christian slants of everyone but Dracula surprised me. Reading it felt to me like I was being proselytized to. It was interesting to finally read the book- but after 4 years o..."
You know, it might be! The oldest known Vampire tales are from Assyria, so no crucifixes!
Here's an article:
https://archive.aramcoworld.com/issue...

Dena wrote: "Holly wrote: "Yes! (I am reading almost all fluff myself!). Some scholars speculate that its Christian slant is representative of a xenophobic agenda; others talk about the intense undercurrent of ..."

Isn't it? Here's some references, if you are interested! I skimmed the Skal and just sampled "Coming Out of the Coffin" Skal, David J Something in the Blood: The Untold Story of Bram Stoker, Liveright, 2016, p. 564; [1] "Coming Out Of The Coffin", The New Inquiry, 24 August 2012

Emily wrote: "I think Stoker's use of Christian objects simply reflected his background and his readers' milieu.

..."

Yes, I think it's easy to forget how steeped the culture was in Christianity at one point -..."

I think the Anglican Church believes that the communion elements are transformed into the body and blood of the savior (like Catholics) even though they don’t change in appearance, taste, etc.

Holly wrote: The oldest known Vampire tales are from Assyria, so no crucifixes! Here's an article:
https://archive.aramcoworld.com/issue..."
Aramco World! This brings back memories from elementary school (early 1960's) - when we had a subscription. Looks interesting, I'm between webinars but will read later. Thanks!

Lenore wrote:
There is actually a joke about a Jewish vampire, confronted by a cross, who says ..."
That's great! 🤣🤣

Holly wrote: "Did you ever watch "Dead and Loving It"? Lesley Nielson"

Not yet, but since Les Klinger says it's one of his favorite vampire movies -- and I always think Leslie Nielson was just hilarious -- it's on my list to watch soon.

I love Dracula Dead and Loving It - it's been forever since I've seen it, which is weird because it seems like the Naked Gun movies are always on some TV channel, so you'd think they'd play that one, too!

It's hard to go back and imagine what it was like for people reading Dracula with no preconceived ideas of what it's about - I completely agree with Holly that he totally seems to be going for the misdirect of making the reader expect a more conventional story, but of course nobody reading now doesn't already know where things are heading. Someone should come out with a line of books with blank covers, so you can start reading and at least get a little way in unencumbered by your expectations like the original audience was.

quick note on Anglican belief on communion: the belief is that communion is symbolic of Christ's body and blood, not transubstantiated as in the Roman Catholic belief. It is "an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given unto us, ordained by Christ himself, as a means whereby we receive the same, and a pledge to assure us thereof."

As a symbol of the grace of God, it would be as powerful as the symbol of the cross for a believer.

Dayna wrote: "Emily wrote: "I think Stoker's use of Christian objects simply reflected his background and his readers' milieu.

..."

Yes, I think it's easy to forget how steeped the culture was in Christianity ..."
Yes. It's all mystical in a way, I hadn't thought of the that! That whatever power transforms the communal wafers and wine can also transform other things.

Dena wrote: "Holly wrote: The oldest known Vampire tales are from Assyria, so no crucifixes! Here's an article:
https://archive.aramcoworld.com/issue..."
Aramco World! This brings back memories from elementary..."
I LOVE that you know Aramco World!! So fascinating, right?

Lenore wrote: "Holly wrote: "Did you ever watch "Dead and Loving It"? Lesley Nielson"

Not yet, but since Les Klinger says it's one of his favorite vampire movies -- and I always think Leslie Nielson was just hil..."
<3

Megan wrote: "I love Dracula Dead and Loving It - it's been forever since I've seen it, which is weird because it seems like the Naked Gun movies are always on some TV channel, so you'd think they'd play that on..."
Megan wrote: "I love Dracula Dead and Loving It - it's been forever since I've seen it, which is weird because it seems like the Naked Gun movies are always on some TV channel, so you'd think they'd play that on..."

Oh that's a BRILLIANT idea Megan! Along those lines, I saw the first of the Leslie Nielson (thx for the spelling!) movies in the theatre--Airplane. It took FOREVER for the audience to get it, everyone was like "What IS this?", expecting a thriller disaster movie that was also funny. I think I was one of the first to start giggling and by the end, everyone was practically peeing themselves--it was all so unexpected.

KarenB wrote: "quick note on Anglican belief on communion: the belief is that communion is symbolic of Christ's body and blood, not transubstantiated as in the Roman Catholic belief. It is "an outward and visible..."

Oh thank you so much! I didn't understand that. Much appreciated!

The cross/crucifix distinction is interesting, and it reminded me of Chuck Larkin's description of a hand gesture, protective against evil: thumb pokes between first and second finger (as in the "got your nose" game) to look a bit like a cross, hand against chest, over heart. I still sometimes do it to remind myself that mean people have no real power.
I did find the quoted Vampyre story https://www.gutenberg.org/files/6087/...

Responding to Megan’s comment about imagining reading Dracula without ANY preconceived notions ... how shocking would that be? I’m reading it for the first time since college (1990) and surprised at how much of the actual wording I remember since I don’t remember it making much of an impression at the time. And of course I remember the Coco Poffs cereal ads and the comics with Dracula climbing down the walls head first. When I read the book this time I thought ‘wow, the cartoon was really close to the book’!! How ridiculous is that? 😀

Have added the Leslie Neilson movie to the to be watched list

Mary wrote: "The cross/crucifix distinction is interesting, and it reminded me of Chuck Larkin's description of a hand gesture, protective against evil: thumb pokes between first and second finger (as in the "g..."

Oh I love this. SO interesting!

Jennifer wrote: "Responding to Megan’s comment about imagining reading Dracula without ANY preconceived notions ... how shocking would that be? I’m reading it for the first time since college (1990) and surprised a..."

Along these lines, I found this person's take on how much Dracula affected common culture in the English-speaking world really interesting. Plus, he does deep into comparing the book with various movies. Fascinating stuff but has some spoilers!
“Which Dracula is most faithful to the book?” Cinemassacre, YouTube.. https://youtu.be/q9D74m628gQ

Holly wrote: "Mary wrote: "The cross/crucifix distinction is interesting, and it reminded me of Chuck Larkin's description of a hand gesture, protective against evil: thumb pokes between first and second finger ..."

Chuck has left us, but someone has kept his website active, should you want to enjoy some of his stories.
http://www.chucklarkin.com/stories.html

Mary wrote: "Holly wrote: "Mary wrote: "The cross/crucifix distinction is interesting, and it reminded me of Chuck Larkin's description of a hand gesture, protective against evil: thumb pokes between first and ..."

Oh thank you! Just clicked on it!

As part of our summer vampire binge, I'm listening to a recording of "The Sussex Vampire," a Canon story I had not read. It is obvious that Conan Doyle was familiar with Stoker's book, as he refers (scoffing) to vampires in Transylvania, and we know from Les Klinger's annotated version that Stoker's was the first popular work to set vampires there.

Holly wrote: "The oldest known Vampire tales are from Assyria, so no crucifixes!
Here's an article: [https://tinyurl.com/2kf83xwr]

I've saved it as a TinyURL so we can find it more easily when we read The Historian. Because it's relevant.

Lenore wrote: "As part of our summer vampire binge, I'm listening to a recording of "The Sussex Vampire," a Canon story I had not read. It is obvious that Conan Doyle was familiar with Stoker's book, as he refers..."

Yes! Interesting story--I love how Stoker affected so much of the following literature (and films).

Lenore wrote: "Holly wrote: "The oldest known Vampire tales are from Assyria, so no crucifixes!
Here's an article: [https://tinyurl.com/2kf83xwr]

I've saved it as a TinyURL so we can find it more easily when w..."
WOOOOT!

I think we're far enough along that this cannot be considered a spoiler. I really think that in a lot of ways, this is a feminist novel (whether or not it was intended as such). Mina Harker has learned typing -- I think relatively unusual at the time -- to assist Jonathan. She attempts to save Lucy in a really scary event. She travels alone to Bucharest when she learns Jonathan is hospitalized there. She becomes the secretary of the group. When they try to keep information from her, to keep from upsetting her, things go sour -- it is better when she is kept informed. And in the final pursuit (which I would not detail for fear of spoiling) she is unflinchingly stalwart. It is no exaggeration to say that the men absolutely could not have succeeded without her.

Lenore wrote: "I think we're far enough along that this cannot be considered a spoiler. I really think that in a lot of ways, this is a feminist novel (whether or not it was intended as such). Mina Harker has lea..."

I agree.

Holly wrote: "Lenore wrote: "Holly wrote: "The oldest known Vampire tales are from Assyria, so no crucifixes!
Here's an article: [https://tinyurl.com/2kf83xwr]

I've saved it as a TinyURL so we can find it more..."

Thank you. I had no idea that vampires were so old. Bram Stoker added a Christian twist. Interesting.

Antoinette wrote: "Lenore wrote: "I think we're far enough along that this cannot be considered a spoiler. I really think that in a lot of ways, this is a feminist novel (whether or not it was intended as such). Mina..."

I agree too! Which, for a man of Victorian times, is pretty amazing. Also--- she comes fully into her own power and her own agency, her own value AFTER the ummmm beginnings of seduction etc---in other words, her worth is NOT her naivitee, her metaphorical virginity. Shocking! Incidentally, in 1901, Stoker wrote the introduction for an Icelandic translation.... which some one (DeRoos) noticed in 2014 (!!!) was significantly different than the original!!! It is shorter, leaner, sexier. It turns out Stoker gave the translator an earlier version that he Victorianated (my made-up word) for the British public and to avoid censorship, although the translator did likely make a few of the adjustments.

Lenore wrote: "As part of our summer vampire binge, I'm listening to a recording of "The Sussex Vampire," a Canon story I had not read. It is obvious that Conan Doyle was familiar with Stoker's book, as he refers..."

Thanks for the suggestion. I found it on my Kindle app, downloaded and neglected early purchase. It's a chilling story.

Mary, how did you feel about it as a Holmes story?

Holly wrote: "Mary, how did you feel about it as a Holmes story?"

I'm not sure I understand your question. He solved the case, with logical deductions. I do wonder if sending the lad away for a spell will solve the problem, though.

Mary wrote: "...I do wonder if sending the lad away for a spell will solve the problem, though."

Depends on how long "a spell" the lad is away for. If he doesn't come back until his half-brother is old enough to talk sensibly, the younger boy may be able to protect himself from his murderous sibling. And I suppose if the older boy learns some independence and develops relationships with others, perhaps he will be less jealous and hostile. But my initial reaction was something along the lines of "What a typical upper class English twit solution to a serious problem!"