EVERYONE Has Read This but Me - The Catch-Up Book Club discussion
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The Woman in White
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Perfect! The board I made was then directly under the book page - but this one works perfectly fine:) Personally, I don't need a schedule, but about 28 days is good for me. So, I have finished Section VII of Chapter 1 and until now I actually quite enjoy reading it.
My thoughts on the book so far (beware spoilers):
1. I like the original characterization. Even though Prof. Pesca is quite over the top and other reviews thought it was stereotyping, I liked it in the context of the story because it just made it more lively. To a certain extent, I find humorous stereotypes funny and a good addition to the comic of a book. Mr. Fairly seems a bit the stereotype and caricature of an upper-class English man; extremely polite and concerning himself with coin collecting and high art, while detesting children and everything lively. He is the exact opposite of Prof. Pesca and quite rude behind his polite facade. He seems to be the kind of person who loves to hear himself talk and does not care about other people's thoughts or even hearing their voices. The way he cuts of Mr. Hartright several times after having asked his opinion... No wonder Mr. Hartright felt like he was coming up from a dive after having left Mr. Fairly's presence.
2. When the woman in white first appeared I first thought she might be a ghost. That would have been an interesting direction, but her fleeing from the asylum sounds also quite eery. I'm really excited to see how that develops and who she really is. Also, the description of her voice (curiously still, mechanical, rapid) sounded a bit outer-worldly or robotic.
3. The way women are described (especially the way Ms. Halcombe does) is quite sexist but I guess appropriate for that time. Yet, I think Wilkies himself thinks higher of women than what he has Ms. Halcombe say. She seems intelligent and has quick wits, even though her description and her ugly features make me wonder whether the combination of a good-looking AND intelligent woman would have been too much for the author. Also, when Mr. Fairly says the women should decide themselves what to draw seems no nudge to the women being able to decide for themselves. I also liked her sense for adventure and mystery.
4. Is there also some sort of critique regarding asylums?
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My thoughts on the book so far (beware spoilers):"
I'm in Chapter VIII now, so probably a bit behind your current position, but right where you were when posting this.
I had very similar thoughts about it, especially #2. Since I first heard of the book, and having seen the various covers, I've always assumed that she was a ghost. Even after the men from the asylum appeared, I found myself momentarily trying to squeeze that new development into the ghost story in my head.
I'm also quite struck by the characterizations, because they do all seem to be sort of caricatures. But one in particular that strikes me is Mr. Fairly. Unless I'm misremembering, I recall Pesca describing Fairly's heavy steps in the hall before the conversation he related, and I had the impression of a fairly domineering man with a powerful presence & booming voice. This, along with a few little hints and asides in the other character descriptions, makes me wonder if some of these characters will be shifting and changing as the novel progresses. In any case, it seems to me that these people are not quite as they first appear to our narrator.
I think you're right about Ms. Halcombe's constant belittling of women generally, and in fact it seemed to me that Collins might be using her to mock the kind of misogyny embodied in such overzealous attempts to cut women down.
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I made a small pause with reading because of an upcoming exam on Wednesday, but after that I'm back:)
Sorry, guys, I won't be able to join you after all since I tested positive for Covid last week and I have to quarantine. I won't be able to go to the library for a while. Enjoy your reading!
Mod
Ugh, María, sorry to hear that. Hope you are well soon.
Just finished Chapter X and I'm curious to see how Anne, the Baronet and Laura are connected...
Just finished the FIRST EPOCH and still really enjoyed reading:)1. I am intrigued by Collins stance on women. The way Marian and Laura resent the marriage and Marian described men as taking everything away from a women, as well as the love story between Laura and Walter the reader hopes will somehow realize, make me think Collins is a defender of women and their choices. On the other hand, Marian herself describes women as incapable of drawing because of their short attention span etc. I want to see how this evolves and what Marian's will do in the rest of the story. Lastly, Collins wrote the first detective story with a female detective which I'd definitely on my to-read list.
2. Without much explanation: I hate Mr. Fairly. The way his entire day and thinking revolves only around himself and his ailing is just pitiful and disgusting. Also, that he seemingly has no interest in Laura's financial future and perhaps even safety and has no problem with her marrying a man who is in debt and has an interest in her dying so he can get her inheritance, blows my mind. For him, Laura is nothing but a family worry and he can't wait to get rid of her.
3. The love story between Laura and Walter just makes me so happy to live in this age. The fact, that Laura marries someone twice her age and she obviously doesn't want to and does not love Sir Glyde is just heartbreaking. I wonder whether Laura's and Walter's story will end in tragedy with Laura killing herself or being killed or Walter deciding he cannot live without her.
4. There's just something not right with Sir Glyde. Obviously, he tried to get rid of Anne. I wonder what she knew or whether he did something to her which made her write that letter and flee. The fact that he is im debt and has such a high interest in the financial aspects of the marriage is also just highly suspicious. Something is definitely going to happen in Italy, also with the relative of Laura.
5. One thing I learnt in life: A person's character can be quite easily seen in the way he treats those below him in rank. And Sir Glyde behaves erratic and impolite towards them. Laura's dog barking at him and hiding from his also seems a bad sign...
Mod
1. I’ve also really been noticing Collins’ approach to men & women. When there are comments such as Miss Halcombe’s, about the limitations of women, I think perhaps we’re supposed to take them with some irony. She is clearly one of the most intelligent people in the book (the most intelligent, to my mind), so her self-deprecation seems calculated. Then too, Collins keeps pointing out differences in societal treatment and expectations of women, in ways that seem to clarify the injustice of it. Early in the Second Epoch, Miss Halcombe has the moment where she wishes for the privileges of a man, so that she could take a horse and ride to meet the returning travelers. “Being, however, nothing but a woman, condemned to patience, propriety, and petticoats, for life, I must respect the housekeeper’s opinions, and try to compose myself in some feeble and feminine way.” To me it drips with irony, and points out the artificiality of the restraints placed on women.
In a much larger way, I don’t know if you’ve gotten to it yet, but (no real spoiler here) there’s a lengthy conversation about criminals and whether they can be considered wise. I have to say, the men come off as sneering, cynical, and amoral. It seems pretty clear to me that the reader is expected to identify with Miss Halcombe and Laura. This is often the case for this book—I had the same impression when reading parts of Mr. Gilmore’s narrative, with his air of obtuse superiority, and then of course there’s the example of Mr. Fairly which you pointed out. Other than Mr. Hartright, the men in this book are not at all appealing. And even Hartright is less interesting—and less in charge of his own actions—than Miss Halcombe.
2. Nothing to say about Fairly except, yeah, he’s the worst. I’m sure Glyde is up to nefarious things, but I still prefer him to Fairly. I see that Fairly takes over the narrative briefly, later in the book—can’t wait to see how that goes!
4. I’m still really puzzled by the connections between Glyde, Anne Catherick, and Laura. As you say, he obviously tried to get rid of Anne. But what do you make of the fact that these two women look so nearly identical? Is there some greater connection between them? (Are they actually twins or something?) He’s obviously after Laura’s inheritance, but what was he after with Anne in the prior relationship? That feels to me like something he had to clear away first, before he could act on his designs for Laura.
5. I had thought the same thing about the way Glyde treats those “beneath” him. It’s not even just that, but often when his temper slips, he really shows that there’s a lot of malice under the surface, and any peaceful aspect we see is just a veneer.
Dogs seem to be a bit of a recurring motif in this book, in different ways. Laura’s dog’s reaction to Glyde is a thing. Then later (again, I won’t spoil anything) Miss Halcombe finds an injured dog, which opens up the plot a bit. And later still, you’ll meet Count Fosco, who really likes animals but is quite strange toward Glyde’s dogs.
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I have finished with Mr. Fairly's chapter and agree with you I everything said above. Especially I this chapter the individual voice and how he is simply cannot see anything happening to his niece and has very little knowledge of humans, unlike Marian and Laura, is remarkable. I don't know how far you are, but the novel really is turning into something darker and more crime like halfway through. I think as soon as Marian and Laura are separated, Marian will "succumb" to her illness and soon Laura will follow her being the victim of an "accident". It also really shows how vulnerable women are when they have no male relative or husband to protect them, no matter how intelligent and brave they are. It really was a red flag that there were only diary entries from Marian and Laura wasn't given a chapter at all. I also really liked the end of Marian's diary with the entry by Fosco. It sends shivers down your spine knowing he has read everything and knows Laura and Marian know everything.
Collins actually named his daughter who was born 9 years after the publication of the book Marian. By now I also believe that he gives the women are much higher moral standing and makes them the heroes of the novel. Fosco and Sir Glyde talking about crime at the lake with two women in their presence also hinted that they were probably used to this kind of talk and they almost sympathized with the wise murderer, so it seemed to me.
I can't quite think of a reason why Anne and Laura look so similar. It is said they are not related, maybe it is only of symbolic meaning as Laura and Anne will share the same fate? I also have no clue what Sir Glyde's secret is. Perhaps a previous murder?
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I also loved Fairly’s chapter. I was listening to it at the park, and couldn’t help laughing out loud several times. I love Collins’ ability to shift tones in the writing like that. And he certainly came up with a great writing style for Fairly—my favorite parts were the couple of lengthy asides just to explain that he was overwhelmed & couldn’t possibly write another word until he had rested. So perfect.
I have the same sense about what will become of Marian & Laura. I do wonder whether Marian will succumb naturally, or be “helped” along, and whether we’ll actually know which it was.
I also still can’t think what is the importance of Laura & Anne looking so similar, but did you notice Fosco’s reaction to hearing that? I wonder if he will turn out to know something more than Glyde does.
You’re right also about the tone of the novel. It’s been a while since I had any hint in my mind of it being a ghost story; I had almost forgotten how much I expected that. It’s definitely a sort of crime novel now, and I think it’s entirely built on a recognition that if Marian or Laura were a man—or if Hartright weren’t poor—then Glyde & Fosco would easily be overcome.
*Spoilers* I have finished the novel a few days ago and really liked it.
Unfortunately, Anne and Laura looking so similar is nothing but a coincidence and even though that does happen sometime, when happening in a book you expect it to have a reason. That was one of the things I thought was a bit too rare and it just happening for the sake of the story and working out was a bit disappointing.
My favorite characters were Marian, because she is the bravest one and making tough decisions as sending Walther away because Laura is promised to another man.
The second character I found the most intriguing is Count Fosco because he tried to commit a crime but not hurt anyone physically, nevertheless betraying Laura of her money is immoral of course and shows how little he is noble. But I also liked that he was the only one falling in love with Marian's character and basically adoring and almost worships her. He seems to be the kind of man who would wish for a strong and intelligent wife who is his equal. However, Lady Fosco was a headstrong woman and she has become a lamb next to him because of the way he treated her. So maybe he wants a strong woman for his own conversation but to the outside she must obey him.
Walther got braver in the end and I liked that, I can see some kind of character growth in him.
I ask myself whether it was also some sort of critique from Collins that Laura and Walther, who were so obviously in love with each other and were meant for each other, had to be on the same social status (i.e. Laura poor) for their marriage to happen, which was meant to be and what the reader was obviously meant to root for.
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I have finished the novel a few days ago and really liked it."
I am in the middle of the Third Epoch at this point, so I haven't read past this line in your post. I think it will take me about a week to finish up, though I'll try to pick up the pace a bit. :) And then I'll respond.
Glad to hear you liked it, though. I've been really enjoying it as well.
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Yes, I also thought that all of the characters were very fleshed out and none of them are really completely bad or evil but quite human.
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I definitely agree about the disappointing similarity between Laura & Anne. “They’re half-sisters” is really just not good enough. If Collins hadn’t spent so much time driving home the point that they were just too similar for words, it might have been easier to accept this facile explanation.
My biggest disappointment with the book, though, was Laura herself. She’s such a simp—I couldn’t see why Hartright was so infatuated with her. (On Wikipedia, she’s described as “guileless,” which is a serious understatement.) Especially in comparison to her other half-sister, Marian, who is a really great character. I mean, I could see him taking pity on Laura, and even just vowing to get justice for her on principle. But his professed love for her always made me think less of him.
I did notice the same thing you mentioned about Laura having to drop to Hartright’s social status before they could be together. I hadn’t thought of it as a critique until your suggestion, though. If it was, he should have played it up a bit more.
I agree that Marian is the most interesting character, and also agree about Fosco. The turn in the final section, where he turns out to be a spy and Pesca turns out to be his undoing, was a bit over the top. But he’s a really intriguing villain, because he does seem to have his own code that he adheres to. Btw, I noticed that in the 1948 film adaptation, he’s played by Sydney Greenstreet. That’s a great choice, and makes me want to see it.
Walter certainly transformed pretty significantly over the course of the book, which I was glad to see. I wasn’t crazy about him in the first epoch, but in the third I liked him.
This is a Buddy Read for The Woman in White by Wilkie Collins.
We don’t really have a schedule, but we begin today, July 5. I’m listening to this version, which is 28 hours long, so I’m shooting for listening to an hour or so per day.
If anyone wants to come up with a schedule, and certainly if anyone has any impulse to moderate, please feel free! Otherwise, let’s just discuss as we go along!