The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

Dick Shelton has had a busy couple of days. He’s discovered that his guardian probably murdered his father and now wants to murder him. He’s found out his friend is actually a young woman, and he declares his intention to marry her. And he escapes the castle, leaving Joanna behind.

Who is Joanna?

What’s special about the chamber where Dick was sent, and why was Oliver unwilling for Dick to be sent there?

What do you think Dick will do now?

This is very operatic/melodramatic, where someone goes from love to hate and vice versa in a minute. Or part of the adventure/action genre, where deep introspection isn't common.

I like how Dick got to know Joanna and admire her courage and brains. If she had just been presented to him as a girl he should marry, he might have been indifferent, judged her by her looks and fortune, and not tried to find out her personality. I have never been a fan of the "love at first sight" trope, and I think a lot of young readers would like the idea of having a great adventure with your intended, not just seeing them in social circles. I guess this fits a different trope, like being stranded with someone or caught up in war (which they are, come to think of it) and getting attached (plenty of movies like The African Queen come to mind.)

I am beginning to think that perhaps I was wrong in hoping that sir Daniel was not so bad as he was depicted in the first chapters. It seems that he really murdered Dick's father and I was astonished by the fact that he also wants to murder Dick. I hope that Dick will soon discover the truth about his father's death.
Is there something special about the room above the chapel other than the secret passage?

I thought Bennet Hatch really nailed Dick with his “brave but uncrafty” remark. It seems as though Bennet and Sir Oliver are potential allies, or at least resistant to Sir Daniel’s nefariousness. Will this save their lives?

It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me that Sir Daniel is suddenly so eager to kill Dick. Sure, Dick has shown himself suspicious about Sir Daniel’s actions, but Sir Daniel could easily throw him in a dungeon instead; and if he’s so ready to commit murder, why didn’t he kill Dick when Dick was a little boy and just appropriate his property?

As for the room above the chapel, like so much in this story it seems like a convenient plot device. It gives Dick and Joanna a convenient way to creep about in secret passages and make their escape—well, if Joanna hadn’t had that sudden attack of fear of heights. Seems like Stevenson doesn’t want a girl tagging along on all Dick’s adventures. There was an awful lot of defensive talk about how she was really going to be just fine remaining in Sir Daniel’s clutches. What’s the worst that could happen—she’d be married off to some other random stranger?

There’s a French expression, un tas de betises, that pretty much applies to this plot.

What were the rules of wardship if the ward dies? Surely it couldn't be that the Guardian got the estate...but it sounds as if Sir Daniel had the use of Dick's estate while he was a boy. Do we know much about how wealthy Dick is in himself?

Poor Joan, left in the clutches of Sir Daniel-I thought she was the swimmer and was going to have to help Dick across the moat-but perhaps that would have been too much of a girl's adventure for this story.

Do we know why the Amend-all gang are on the side of Dick and his father?

Abigail wrote: "I thought Bennet Hatch really nailed Dick with his “brave but uncrafty” remark. It seems as though Bennet and Sir Oliver are potential allies, or at least resistant to Sir Daniel’s nefariousness. W..."

That again makes me think of opera, the plots are often all over the place.

Regarding the rules of wardship: there may have been rules, and Dick might have relations not mentioned in the text who would be in line to inherit, but in the ever-shifting chaos of the Wars of the Roses, it would have been easy enough for Sir Daniel simply to claim the property. In the first few centuries after the Conquest, as far as I know, unclaimed properties reverted to the Crown so the monarch could reward supporters with estates. But at the time of the story there was no strong king whose authority was universally accepted, nor central government that could dictate or enforce such an award for a small-scale property. Nor was there a centralized court system in which claims could be adjudicated. It was very much a “might makes right” situation.

Dick seems like a relatively minor local landholder since he has no title, not even that of knight. His father might have held a manor or been a hundredman but probably nothing more substantial because otherwise the king or a high aristocrat would have been the one to determine his wardship.

I don’t think we know yet why Ellis and the black arrow gang are on the side of Dick or his father, other than a generalized interest in justice and a wish to defeat Sir Daniel’s machinations. Maybe the next section will tell?

I presumed that Sir Daniel kept Dick alive in order to receive Court directed wardship benefits and would not be the one to get Dick's family estate upon his death, unless he would steal it. I presumed Sir D was willing to kill him now because it was getting to the end of the wardship so the benefit part of the cost/benefit analysis of keeping Dick alive was decreasing and Dick's inquiries were greatly increasing the cost part of that analysis.

I think that Sir Oliver still has a tiny bit of conscience, since he lied about the death of Dick's father in order to save Dick's life. Sir Daniel is a real villain-no redeeming qualities. It's all about money and power for him. Loyalty is a foreign concept for him.
The letter Dick found on Throgmorton is bound to come in handy sometime.

Well Jack did return, if only for a short time, maybe just for an encore.

There were plenty of exciting episodes in book two, not least the tumble down the rope and escape by Dick. What a pity that Joanna didn’t have the athleticism of a Jane from the Tarzan movies/stories. She could have followed Dick by swinging down the rope and swimming across the moat with arrows singing past her head. Instead she had to stay in the clutches of the dastardly and despicable Sir Daniel whose real character has been exposed for all to see.

Dick finally recognised Jack/Joanna for what he/she is, her tremulous alto/contralto voice of fear moving up a few octaves as Sir Daniel’s men bore down on them. Their declarations of love were touching, especially Dick who seemed to suggest he had fallen in love with her when he still thought she was a boy. The fact that he had not given her a belting meant so much to him. Joanna’s pledge to be true to him no matter what happen’s to her is a refreshing change when compared to today’s angst ridden relationship miseries of modern novels.

Dick’s defiant letter to Sir Daniel seemed a little naive to me but I admired his pluck. His reasoning that Sir Daniel was too chivalrous to hurt a woman seemed way off the mark after the revelations of the recent chapters. It is to be hoped that Joanna remains too valuable in terms of a dowry to Sir Daniel for him not to dispose of her. Her revelations about her upbringing and how she has been treated like a piece of meat at a market to be sold to the highest bidder can only harden Dick’s resolve to come back and save her.
For now it seems that Dick and Joanna have to be parted after such a brief but fond exchange. A mutual kiss on the hand, now that is both chivalrous and somewhat amazing that their emotions can be kept in check when they might never see each other again.

Dick’s welcome by Ellis Duckworth bodes well for future adventures. It seems that the foresters and Dick have to disperse and lie low for a while now that Sir Daniel has reinforcements. I can’t see Dick’s impetuous nature being subdued for long and I hope his impatience is tempered by The Black Arrow’s experience so that he can emerge triumphant rather than blunder into a trap.

Now we know more about Sir Daniel and the reasons for him not to kill Dick right away, financial gains. The wardship pays of, and the marriage might do even more. I am not quite sure why Sir Daniel should really benefit from the marriage to Joan that much, unless he can benefit from the match. But how is this going to happen? Does Sir Daniel a still have his hands on the finances after marriage? I am not sure how this worked back then. Dick is still under age, but does that really matter? And where do his supposed riches come from?
The escape of Dick is interesting. Joanna was very tough until then, did everything and more for Dick, and then the last minute hesitation to escape. I guess it was done because it makes the story more interesting for readers at the time. Would we find it more interesting if Joanne would have been the more heroic one during the escape?
Dick keeps learning about his friends and foes, but he remains quite naive. In the end he is likely to triumph. That’s the premise here, isn’t it?

Daniela wrote: "I am beginning to think that perhaps I was wrong in hoping that sir Daniel was not so bad as he was depicted in the first chapters. It seems that he really murdered Dick's father and I was astonish..

Is there something special about the room above the chapel other than the secret passage?

I wondered if the room would play a part in the future. It is obviously Sir Daniel’s murder room, accessed by the trap door to kill unsuspecting victims in the middle of the night. There was talk by the inhabitants of the Moat House that it was a haunted room. Could it be that ghosts appear in this adventure? More specifically, could it be a Hamlet or Macbeth style ghost that appears to Sir Daniel and drives him into madness?

I was also wondering if we'd see ghosts, or if the room was just scary because no one left it alive.

Detlef wrote: "I guess it was done because it makes the story more interesting for readers at the time. Would we find it more interesting if Joanne would have been the more heroic one during the escape?.."

The fact that Joanna got left behind was an obvious development to me. As Detlef says, it was to make the story more interesting. If she escaped with him then RLS couldn't have another escape scene, this time more of a rescue scene, common in such tales as this. By this plot choice, the plot can expand to include parts where Dick is both with and without Joanna. It can also still include the scene Detlef envisions - where Joanna is the more heroic one during the next escape/rescue.
I agree with Trev that Dick's thought processes on whether she was in danger with Sir D again shows his naivety. And like Abigail, I enjoyed Hatch's on-point description of Dick as it showed me that RLS was in command of how he wanted us to perceive Dick.