Into the Forest discussion

Posting this a day early because I teach tomorrow and am worried I will forget.

A woman marries a man with an interesting physical feature- a blue beard (not blue hair interesting enough). She marries well and is given keys to all the rooms in his castle. But she cannot go into one room, even though he gives her the key to that room. Of course, when she leaves, she goes into the room where she discovers the bloody bodies of his former wives, and just when she is about to beheaded for giving into curiosity and disobeying her husband, she is saved by her siblings (sometimes just her brothers, sometimes her sister calls the brothers).

Bluebeard is a very interesting story. Supposedly the famous wife killing spouse was based either on Gilles des Rais who fought with Joan de Arc but later confessed to killing and sodomizing children in the 1430s and was hung in 1440. He is the most popular candidate. There are some who believe that it is Conomor the Accursed who was active in Brittney in the mid-500s. He supposedly married St. Tryphine, who he abused and later killed. In some stories of Conomor, he kills his first wives before Tryphine, who is brought back to life by St. Gildas (hence in part while St. Tryphine).

The thing about the French version that gets modern women in particular is the woman being seemingly punished for her curiosity. Whether or not this was the original intent of the original legend/story, Charles Perrault’s first moral for the story indicate giving to curiosity is bad for women. The second moral, that in a modern marriage it is the woman who controls the husband. The similar tales, where a woman disobeys a command from a spouse and discovers murder, feature women who are for the most part not condemned for the curiosity. Sometimes I wonder if the tale itself was simply, this is what you do if your husband is abusive. After all, he seeks to kill her because she disobeyed him, not because she will tell others what he did. Does Perrault’s version of the tale suggest that women should keep their inquiring minds to themselves and not seek to answer the questions? Is it, does he say, better not to know than to know?

Additionally, the tale has at times an Orient theme to it. Illustratrions show a Bluebeard and wife who wear stereotypical Muslim or Eastern dress. The wife is sometimes named Fatima, while her sister always seems to be Anne.

It’s interesting that in Angela Carter’s retelling, the heroine is punished and keeps a mark of her punishment – and the question arises in that retelling – what is she punished for?

Some people call Henri Landrua a real-life Blue Beard. He was active in Paris before the First World War, where he would seduce widows and steal their money. Eventually, he started to kill the widows he seduced. He promised marriage but doesn’t seem to have actually gone through with it. A sister of one his victims was the driving force in discovering his murders.

It’s worth noting as well that the Grimms’ “Mary’s Child” also deals with indulging in curiosity. In this tale, however, the girl in question disobeys the Virgin Mary and then lies about it. She is punished more for the lie than anything else.

I like your discussion and the different possibilities you have presented, Chris. I have a slightly different take on the fairy tale.

To me, it is all about control and power over. The woman is being punished not for her curiosity but for her disobedience. The male wants control over her movements. He wants to exercise power over her. He allows her freedom but within the limits he has defined. By denying her access to a room even though he has given her the means to enter it (the key), he is testing her. When she enters the forbidden room, she is exercising choice and challenging his authority over her--something he will not tolerate. Therefore, he punishes her.

It reminds me a lot of when I used to volunteer at the shelter for battered women. The man would exercise power over the woman in a number of ways, one of which was to allow her to go out to the grocery store, but she would have to be home within a specific time. He would literally time her. If she took longer than the allotted time, he would punish her. It's tantamount to giving her the key to the forbidden room but not allowing her access. It's all about control and power over.

The other thing that struck me is that the girl's brothers come to her rescue. Why do fairy tales nearly always have the males rescuing females? It's one of my pet peeves about fairy tales. Why can't women rescue their sisters? It bothers me because it teaches little girls to rely on men to rescue them instead of teaching them to rely on themselves or on other women.

I'll get off my soapbox now :)

I love this fairy tale even though it's so dark.

Chris, I did not know about the serial killers the tale might've been based on!

One of my favorite interpretations of Bluebeard comes from Maria Tatar in From the Beast to the Blonde: On Fairy Tales and Their Tellers. She looks at the tale through the lens of young girls often having to marry much older men (bluebeards), men who have probably lost other wives previously, often through childbirth. But it's not just about how women often died young, but also about the tribulations of marrying older men and of the realities of domestic abuse (like Tamara discusses. Sadly, I have known women in these conditional abusive relationships too).

I remember reading an article somewhere about how Bluebeard illustrations began to show Bluebeard as someone non-white and therefore threatening in the European imagination of that time, but I can't remember where.

My favorite Bluebeard tale type is Fitcher's Bird by the Brothers Grimm. In this one, the girl saves her older sisters from an evil magician. It's clear in this one that her curiosity is an advantage. Only if she had opened the door would she have been able to put her sisters back together, and only with her inquisitive nature could she have tricked the magician. So Tamara, not all Bluebeard tales require men! Here's the link to that story: https://www.surlalunefairytales.com/a...

I love Angela Carter's take. I actually didn't remember that she carried a scar with her. I take scars as reminders not to make the same mistake again.

When I get a chance, I'll list some of my favorite retellings of this one!

Tamara wrote: "Why do fairy tales nearly always have the males rescuing females?"

Er, they don't? Even this type often has a heroine rescuing herself and her sisters.

Fun fact: Bluebeard Tales from Around the World has a lot!

I do think it it is interesting that the more popular or at least more well known in society tales do have men rescuing women.

Very much a comment on society. Also the stories where sisters aren't in conflict tend to seem less popular (ie. Kate Crackernuts should be more well known).

Mary wrote: "Er, they don't? Even this type often has a heroine rescuing herself and her sisters.

Fun fact: [book:Bluebeard Ta..."

I was thinking of Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, etc. These are the ones that come to mind off the top of my head. The girl is, more often than not, supine and waiting for the handsome prince or some other handsome guy to rescue her. And the evil characters are older women who are threatened by the girl's beauty and youth. These send all the wrong messages to boys and girls.

Even in the Bluebeard story above, the sister has to call the brothers to rescue her sibling.

There may be variations to these stories where girls rescue girls, but those are certainly not the popular or well known versions.

Thanks for setting this up Christine!
Between the two tales I also like the Grimm's version Fitcher's Bird slightly more than Bluebeard because the heroine rescues her sisters. However even with Bluebeard I found the moral to be that the wife is in the right because she exposes her husband as a murderer. They are both creepy tales that I enjoy very much!
Christine I did not know about the history! I wonder what other fairy tales are based on real life events?

I definitely think it's a commentary on society that the stories where men save women are the best known, and also related to why Charles Perrault and the Grimms are so much better known than any of the women fairytale writers.

Little Red Riding Hood is an example of this too. My favorite version is the Story of the Grandmother, where LRRH tricks the wolf and saves herself. However, in the Perrault version, she's eaten and there follows a commentary on being too fresh with strange men, and in the Grimm version a woodcutter saves her.

I always try to think about what a fairy tale would've meant to the people telling it in different times. There can be so many interpretations.

I recently read Catherynne M. Valente's new novella, Comfort Me with Apples, which is a Bluebeard retelling. It's not out yet but I recommend it!

Margaret and Mary, thanks for the links.

I hadn't read Fitcher's Bird before, but I have read versions that have an egg. Interesting how different versions entertwine with each other.

Christine L. wrote: "

I was thinking of Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, etc. ..."
In some ways, I'd dare suggest that your assuming all girls received those messages. That's not the case. There are positive t..."

I agree there is definitely wisdom in many of the fairy tales. Also one must always consider the time period in which they were written. For example many of the French fairy tales of princesses locked in dungeons or married off to monsters reflect the treatment of woman in this period, for example arranged marriages for the financial benefit of the families rather than the well being of the brides, or sending disobedient women to the nunnery.

Tamara wrote: "I like your discussion and the different possibilities you have presented, Chris. I have a slightly different take on the fairy tale.

To me, it is all about control and power over. The woman is be..."

"I was thinking of Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, etc. ..."
I'm very confused by your comment, because it comes across as younger readers especially aren't smart enough to discern the bad or positive messages in fairy tales. Plots involving girls rescuing girls has become a common theme in fantasy, and one I can think of was published in 1990, Wren to the Rescue. Another favourite of mine involves sisters rescuing sisters from 2001, The Two Princesses of Bamarre. There are positive traits in fairy tales as well. For instance, Aurora and Snow White's love for nature and caring for it. Also Belle's fortitude and patience transforms an alpha male into becoming the leader he could be, so in that way Belle actually rescues the Beast. I always saw Cinderella as one about taking initiative and not giving up hope. And then there's Elsa, who would definitely be a sister rescues sister scenario.

In terms of Bluebeard, I'd say the fairy tale focuses on complex relationships. All women will face them, and have to navigate love, trust, and betrayal.

Jalilah wrote: ..."
Very true. Most societies have a different outlook on marriage now. (Also, sorry, I edited my post, so it appears to come after yours).

I see if I can find more. There are some links to real,events in a few Grimm tales.

I was thinking the other day about how in Cinderella, the rescuer isn't really the prince, it's Cinderella's dead mother, who takes care of her daughter even after death, ensuring she has a good future. The Disney movie changed it, but that fairy godmother still has more to do with aiding Cinderella than that prince (and more personality too). While I do think there are negative tropes that can be associated with fairytales, there are just as many or more positive ones. It's all in the telling and in what the listener brings to the story.

Sorry, that derailed from Bluebeard. :)

All relevant, Margaret :). Good things to think about even with a darker fairy tale like BB. (Haha, I usually use BB for Beauty and the Beast, but in this case it's for Blue Beard). For some reason, people categorized The Wrath and the Dawn as a BB retelling on Goodreads, but it's definitely more connected to 1001 Nights. However, I can see the connection with the Caliph killing women out of fear and jealousy, and the intelligent wife preventing more deaths.

Christine L. wrote: "Jalilah wrote: ..."
Very true. Most societies have a different outlook on marriage now. (Also, sorry, I edited my post, so it appears to come after yours)."

This is an interesting article on this subject
https://www.terriwindling.com/blog/20...

Christine wrote: "I see if I can find more. There are some links to real,events in a few Grimm tales."

Thank you!

I also found this article:
https://www.terriwindling.com/blog/20...

Margaret wrote: "I was thinking the other day about how in Cinderella, the rescuer isn't really the prince, it's Cinderella's dead mother, who takes care of her daughter even after death, ensuring she has a good fu..."

I remember that in Ashenputal the German version the mother's spirit is in the tree, but isn't there a French version with a fairy godmother instead of dead mother?

I can't help but wonder if the differences between the French and German fairy tale versions are cultural and economic. Many of the writers who penned the French fairy tales were women and from the aristocracy and this was reflected in the way the heroines are depicted.

Margaret wrote: "I was thinking the other day about how in Cinderella, the rescuer isn't really the prince, it's Cinderella's dead mother, who takes care of her daughter even after death, ensuring she has a good fu..."

I'm curious as to how this can be interpreted as a positive message. If you're a little girl who loves Cinderella and wants to be Cinderella-like, are we telling her it is ok to tolerate abuse and discrimination and ugly behaviors because one day your dead mother, i.e., a supernatural element, will rescue you? And if you're good and kind and patient and beautiful, your reward will be marriage to the handsome prince.

Didn't Cinderella's step-sisters mutilate their feet so they could squeeze into the glass slipper? Isn't the message here mutilate yourself, do whatever it takes to compete with other women, if you want to be married to the handsome prince?

If I'm not mistaken, I think the Cinderella story originated in China. Any connection to Chinese foot binding?

Christine L wrote: "I'm very confused by your comment, because it comes across as younger readers especially aren't smart enough to discern the bad or positive messages in fairy tales."

No, I don't think younger readers are capable of discerning the positive or negative messages in fairy tales unless an adult is there to deconstruct it for them.

Margaret wrote: "While I do think there are negative tropes that can be associated with fairytales, there are just as many or more positive ones.

Maybe, so. But my comment in #6 was specifically about Cinderella, Snow White, and Sleeping Beauty--the more well-known fairy tales.

Tamara wrote: "Margaret wrote: "I was thinking the other day about how in Cinderella, the rescuer isn't really the prince, it's Cinderella's dead mother, who takes care of her daughter even after death, ensuring ..."
I think as adults we have the tendency to over complicate things. Personally, it doesn't matter so much to me about the originality of the tales, but what we as a modern society are doing about them. No one I know is telling someone it's okay to abuse other women. In fact, modern feminist authors are taking more ownership of the stories and ensuring that women are being inspired by them. If you're only willing to look at a story in a certain light, then that's the only message you'll find. I'm really baffled why you think younger readers aren't smart enough to tell what's good or bad.

Besides, even if we decide whether or not a fairy tale is "good" or "bad" we shouldn't gatekeep what other people decide what they want to read. That's censorship.

I think we've derailed from the original topic, though, so this is my last comment on this topic.

Jalilah wrote: "Christine L. wrote: "Jalilah wrote: ..."
Very true. Most societies have a different outlook on marriage now. (Also, sorry, I edited my post, so it appears to come after yours)."

This is an interes..."

Thanks for the article!

Tamara wrote: "I'm curious as to how this can be interpreted as a positive message. If you're a little girl who loves Cinderella and wants to be Cinderella-like, are we telling her it is ok to tolerate abuse and discrimination and ugly behaviors because one day your dead mother, i.e., a supernatural element, will rescue you? And if you're good and kind and patient and beautiful, your reward will be marriage to the handsome prince."

I'll chime in here. Not every Cinderella is patient enough to endure abuse. And sometimes abusive Prince in those tales realizes he doesn't deserve a wife.

I once shared a version in which Cinderella initially rebukes the Prince's marriage proposal. Because he mistreated her. Only after his apology, she is willing to marry him.

In another Cinderella's version, the heir of the family realizes that he doesn't deserve a wife so he gets himself into the dragon-killing business. He was another of the jerks who didn't treat Cinderella well while in her rags. Of course, he returns victorious and so now feels worthy to propose to the girl. But she asks him for a time. In the end, she agrees, though.

I'm aware these variants aren't without their own share of problems (marriage to abuser) but it shows there is variety :)

Christine L wrote: "Besides, even if we decide whether or not a fairy tale is "good" or "bad" we shouldn't gatekeep what other people decide what they want to read. That's censorship."

Who said anything about censorship? I'm "baffled" that you interpreted my comments as advocating censorship or as deciding for others what they should read. I merely suggested certain fairy tales should be deconstructed/analyzed so children understand the underlying messages. That's not censorship. That's parenting.

Christine L. wrote: "I don't know if you realize this, but it came across like you didn't want us to be enjoying fairy tales at all."

I apologize if that is how you took it because that was not my intention at all. I have no intention of even suggesting what you can or can't read or what you should or should not enjoy. That is none of my business. You are free to enjoy and read whatever you like, as are we all.

I was merely trying to point out that some versions of the well-known fairy tales have underlying messages that can have a negative impact on children unless an adult is there to point out if and how they reinforce gender stereotypes.

I used to do that with my children when we read fairy tales or when I took them to see a children's movie. We would discuss the story/movie afterwards because I wanted them to develop the tools to recognize gender and/or racial stereotyping and its negative impact.

I don't believe in censorship. But I do believe children need guidance in developing the tools to understand what they are hearing/seeing/reading. And one way of doing that with young children is to read them a fairy tale like the traditional version of Cinderella and then discuss it with them so they can begin to discern for themselves the positives and negatives. The goal was always to teach them to interrogate it for themselves.

Again, my apologies if you understood my comments to suggest you should not be enjoying fairy tales. That, in all honesty, was not my intention.

Tamara wrote: "Christine L. wrote: "I don't know if you realize this, but it came across like you didn't want us to be enjoying fairy tales at all."

I apologize if that is how you took it because that was not my..."
Thank you for the response and clarifying things, I appreciate it. I edited some of my responses, because I felt like the conversation had derailed, so that response didn't show up. I fully support parents spending times with their kids in enjoying fairy tales as well.

Christine L. wrote: "Thank you for response and clarifying things, I appreciate it...."

No worries. I'm glad we sorted it out. All best.

Jalilah wrote: "I remember that in Ashenputal the German version the mother's spirit is in the tree, but isn't there a French version with a fairy godmother instead of dead mother?."

Perrault's. Which is the best known and was even before Disney, though the dead mother is more common.

There are also variants with the kind and unkind girls, and Rumpelstiltskin types.

Hmm, I didn't mean to imply Cinderella was a moral tale for children. Rather, that women play an important part in the story beyond being weak and needing to be saved by men.

Fairytales have deep roots in horror, and I see that to a degree in Cinderella and especially in BB (which I also tend to use for Beauty and the Beast). I've always felt that they're some of the first horror tales. They're full of ludicrous humor, body horror, high adventure, and the horror is especially prevalent for women, because women were the primary tellers of oral fairytales, and I think some fairytales show how much horror can happen to a woman. When they were re-written by literary authors, the authors began to imbue them with morals while also trying to keep that original feel, and I think it makes for mixed messages, especially for today's morals. The original tales also weren't written for children, though I have no issues reading retellings to my daughter (the only fairy tale she's shown any interest in, however, is Rapunzel, and talk about problematic, ha!).

I realize this isn't a full response Tamara, but I'm also tired. Chris has started a separate topic on the morality of fairy tales: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

The oldest Cinderella, Ye Xian, has the dead mother helping in the shape of a fish, but I'm sure there are lots of variations!

Mary wrote: "Jalilah wrote: "I remember that in Ashenputal the German version the mother's spirit is in the tree, but isn't there a French version with a fairy godmother instead of dead mother?."

Perrault's. W..."

Thanks! I thought so but was not sure.

Margaret wrote: "Hmm, I didn't mean to imply Cinderella was a moral tale for children. Rather, that women play an important part in the story beyond being weak and needing to be saved by men.

Fairytales have deep ..."

Good reminder that Fairy Tales were not originally intended for children.

Also Cinderella is not saved by the prince. In fact, the prince is pretty clueless! He's willing to marry anyone whose feet fit into the slipper!

Depends on the variant. There are ones where the prince actually recognizes her in rags and tricks her into revealing herself.

Heck, there is one where he falls in love with her in rags and her coming to the ball -- in rags -- is how he shows he means it.

Mary wrote: "Depends on the variant. There are ones where the prince actually recognizes her in rags and tricks her into revealing herself.

Heck, there is one where he falls in love with her in rags and her co..."

if you don't mind, what are the titles of these variants? They look very intriguing.

One of the first is "Little Catskin" which I found in Tales from the Cloud Walking Country

Of the second, "Tattercoats." Joseph Jacob's version is public domain; you can find it on Sur La Lune, for instance.

Mary wrote: "One of the first is "Little Catskin" which I found in Tales from the Cloud Walking Country

Of the second, "Tattercoats." Joseph Jacob's version is public domain; you can find it on S..."

Thanks. I think I read Jacob's Tattercoat in the past

Margaret wrote, "The oldest Cinderella, Ye Xian, has the dead mother helping in the shape of a fish. . . ."

My favorite Cinderella retelling is set in a long-ago China and includes that mysterious carp. (Bound by Donna Jo Napoli).

Susan wrote: "My favorite Cinderella retelling is set in a long-ago China and includes that mysterious carp. (Bound by Donna Jo Napoli).
"

I read that one several years ago. :)

In case anyone doesn't have a physical copy of the tale:
https://www.surlalunefairytales.com/a...
and here is a list of Bluebeard retellings:
https://www.surlalunefairytales.com/a...
Personally I would never have considered Jane Eyre a Bluebeard retelling! If anything it's more of one for Beauty and the Beast

Jalilah wrote: "In case anyone doesn't have a physical copy of the tale:
https://www.surlalunefairytales.com/a...
and here is a list of Bluebeard retellings:
https://www.surlalunefai..."

I see it as both! A hidden wife, a room Jane isn't allowed to enter.

Margaret wrote: "Jalilah wrote: "I see it as both! A hidden wife, a room Jane isn't allowed to enter. ."

You're so right! I hadn't thought about that! What do you think about Surlalune listing Margaret Atwood's The Robber Bride as a modern adaptation? It's a great book but doesn't have anything to do with Bluebeard imo

"The Robber Bride" and "Bluebeard" do both have horrible criminal bridegrooms

Yes, it's a retelling of "The Robber Bride," which is considered in the same family as "Bluebeard!" One of my favorite Margaret Atwood novels.

Margaret wrote: "Yes, it's a retelling of "The Robber Bride," which is considered in the same family as "Bluebeard!" One of my favorite Margaret Atwood novels."

I consider it her best novel, tbh.

Christine wrote: "I consider it her best novel, tbh."

:) There are still quite a few of hers I haven't read it yet but Robber Bride and the second MaddAddam book, The Year of the Flood, are my two favorites.

Christine wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Yes, it's a retelling of "The Robber Bride," which is considered in the same family as "Bluebeard!" One of my favorite Margaret Atwood novels."

I consider it her best novel, tbh."

Same here!