Chicks On Lit discussion

Join us for our September read which is "By Fire By Water".
By Fire, By Water
We have 3 people committed to this book discussion for the month and would welcome many more.

I started the book and am intrigued by the story. So far we meet King Ferdinand’s chancellor, Luis de Santangel and Christopher Columbus. They are begging the Pope to moderate the Inquisitors methods. We’ll see how this goes…

I hope to start tonight.

I read the first 3 chapters, approximately 25% of the book. I like that this is not a time or story that I have read much from before. I am getting tired of books set in WWII, of the same old romance or hard boiled detective plot line, of the same family drama with uncaring parents or unloving husbands. So far I have met several different communities separated from each other. I am curious how all will come together.

I am up to the beginning of chapter 12, about half way through the book. The story lines are starting to converge.
The prologue where the audience with the pope is conducted while the pope is in bed had me wondering who the pope was at the time of the novel and what his reputation was. I am not sure the exact year of the novel; if it was mentioned, I missed it. So I checked for the years from 1480 to 1492 and found that this period overlaps 2 popes. And, both make the list of the 10 worst popes in history. Lovely. Glad I did not live at this time in history.

I finally started reading and I’m on chapter 5. I used to read a lot of historical fiction but have not for a while as I got a bit fed up of it. I am happy to find, I’m really enjoying this book. I am intrigued by this period of time and I have read books in the past about the inquisition. I know it happened and how it used to be but it makes me so angry and like Irene I’m so happy not to have lived in those times. The Chancellors own young son was suspicious of their family friends and was wondering what to do about it. I am keen to know if it turns out he did tell on them and get the guy imprisoned (sorry I forget his name right now). This is what it did, turned people against their own family and friends!
I live in Spain and have been to the a lot of the areas mentioned, so this is an interesting aspect as well. I’ve seen some of the architecture from the Moor period in Andalucía and it is beautiful. So it’s interesting picturing them living and going about their lives in that part before it was Spanish.

Interesting to actually have walked in the places where the book takes place. I would love to visit Spain some time. Are you up to the place where the son discovers the closet full of statues/figures and takes the hand? What was that closet? If Philip was a secret Jew, what was he doing with these angelic figures?
I am up to chapter 19.

Finished this last night. I am glad we picked this one. Looking forward to the discussion.

I am finished reading the book too. It was a very interesting read for me as I know very little of Inquisition history. The inclusion of the Columbus discovery storyline really ties down the time period for me. I had also forgotten that Henry VIII first wife was Ferdinand and Isabel's daughter. I had no idea how powerful Isabel really was either and would like to read more about her.
As for the writing, I thought Kaplan organized the events perfectly as there were a lot of events with various storylines, yet I never was confused at all. He included Muslim, Jewish and Christian family drama that was very compelling.
Overall, I was very pleasantly suprised.

Do you ever wonder what you would have done if faced with the choice of the conversios? Would you adopt the mandatory practices of the relm while keeping the ancestral faith in private? Would you try to totally forget the ancestral faith?
I wonder if Gabriel ever realized the harm that his disobedience brought to his uncle? I can't imagine living with that guilt, if he knew. It also seemed that the assassins were rather careless, given the potential consequences.

I have been pondering your question for a day and have come to the honest conclusion that I would give up my faith and adopt a new practice and try to forget all my old ways. I am a chicken at heart and would not be willing to be tortured or have my family punished for my beliefs. Unfortunately, I am not a noble martyr type. With that being said, I would like to think I would try to look for ways to move or escape that kind of persecution if feasible.
The meeting to pay the assassins was ridiculous, but the author had to be able to throw suspicion on the chancellor so he must have devised this plot line. It is true that that priest was murdered, but if I was involved, you better be sure I would meet in the woods or somewhere very remote.
My only other beef about plot lines is (spoiler alert)...............
a pregnancy resulting after one encounter. I know it happens in real life, but it seems to happen a lot in novels - It was really annoying in Cold Mountain and I didn't think it really added anything to this novel. In something like Tess of the d'Urbervilles it was a main plot line so can be forgiven, but wasn't necessary in Cold Mountain or in this book. Just my opinion.

I want to think that my faith is so central to my self identity that I would not renounce it. Plus, at that time in history, the fire of hell was strong in the popular spiritual imagination. So, I suspect that that eternal punishment might also have helped me to be faithful to my faith. That said, I think I have a better image of my courage than is warrented, so who knows.

I have a bigger problem with love at first sight than at pregnancy at first encounter. My experience is that it takes time to develop a deep relationship, one strong enough to be called love. I also did not buy the sceen with the woman waking up to find a man in her bedroom looking at her and her reaction. If I woke up in the middle of the night with someone looking at me, someone who did not share the house with me, I would be freaked out. And I don't live in a culture where female modesty is so prized.

Here are some discussion questions I found for this book. Do any of them spark your interest?

What did you know about the Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834) prior to reading By Fire, By Water? How did this story influence or increase your understanding of this historical period?

In By Fire, By Water, trusting someone can lead to life or death. Discuss the various relationships in the novel that lead to both. What kind of trust do the characters have in God? How does trust vary depending on the character’s social class or religious beliefs?

How do the female characters, living in a strongly patriarchal society, acquiesce to or rebel against their culture’s expectations of them? How does Judith break the mold for female behavior in her community? What about Judith catches Santángel’s eye, and later compels him to seek her out?

What kind of a father is Santángel? Early in the novel, he tells his son a story about a man with a “great treasure” who is unable to show it to anyone (pages 30-31). To what is this story alluding? Do you think Gabriel really believed his father was unfaithful to the church or was Gabriel trying to protect his father by staying away from him?

What compels Santángel to learn about the Jewish faith? What is each group member’s purpose for joining his secret religious meetings? How does the small group help, support, or hurt its members?

Discuss the significance of the novel’s title, By Fire, By Water.

The death of Felipe, Santángel’s assistant, in many ways acts as a catalyst. Why do you think this is the breaking point for Santángel? How does his secretary’s death affect his faith?

Why do you think Leonor, Felipe’s wife, feels so protective of Santángel when he is the one who allowed Felipe to join the secret group, and thus, is partially to blame for her husband’s death?

On page 97, Judith loses Levi for an afternoon and, in her search and worrying, reassures herself that, “History never repeats itself.” Do you find evidence in the novel to support this claim?

What was your impression of King Fernando and Queen Ysabel? How do the monarchs differ from Granada’s emir? What do they have in common?

What influence do religious leaders hold over the king and queen? How does this influence differ from that of Santángel and his money? Do you think any religious leaders have that sort of power today?

Letter writing, transcription, and written history play an enormous part in the novel. In what ways do characters use written communication to help them? In what ways does it haunt them?

What was your first impression of Estefan, Santángel’s brother? How do the brothers’ personalities and actions bring them to such different places in their lives?

How did the author’s depiction of Cristóbal Colón contradict or conflict with your own personal knowledge of Christopher Columbus, who famously discovered the NewWorld in 1492?

Why is Colón so keen to push his foreign documents on Santángel? Do you believe their friendsh

Irene wrote: "Do you ever wonder what you would have done if faced with the choice of the conversios? Would you adopt the mandatory practices of the relm while keeping the ancestral faith in private? Would you t..."

I have still not finished the book, but I'm about 65-70% done.

For this question though, I think I'm similar to Melody. I dont think I could cope with being tortured or seeing my family suffer, so if I couldn't escape I'd probably say what they wanted to hear, but perhaps in secret keep some of my own views and beliefs.

I used to be religious but I'm not really anymore, so as I've lost most of my beliefs this makes me feel I would never have been strong enough to stand up for anything. I would've converted rather than be punished.

I will come back to some of the other questions once I finish.

I would think that if one's religious tradition was more of a family heritage or cultural origen than a sense of absolute truth or relationship with the Divine, it would make sense to adopt the cultural norms of the larger society, even if passing along the heritage to children in secret. If one's religion is about a deep relationship with a personal God, a profound conviction, then to deny one's adherence would be akin to betraying a lover or family member.

Irene wrote: "I would think that if one's religious tradition was more of a family heritage or cultural origen than a sense of absolute truth or relationship with the Divine, it would make sense to adopt the cul..."

That actually makes sense. It sounds obvious now when I read your comment, but I didnt think of it like that. Yes I think you are right. I cant even imagine how awful it must have been for everyone. What a nightmare of a situation to live through!

The human capacity for cruelty never ceases to amaze me. How can one person torture another? And we have only gotten more and more sophisticated about it.

"The death of Felipe, Santángel’s assistant, in many ways acts as a catalyst. Why do you think this is the breaking point for Santángel? How does his secretary’s death affect his faith?"

I have finished the book now.

I found this question interesting. I have a lot of thoughts but I'm struggling to word it well.

Santangel knew Felipe well, having worked with him for years and he trusted him, knowing he was a good person. So his imprisonment and eventual death was a shock as he knew he was not an evil person. He didnt 'deserve' it (not that anyone did of course!) We saw at the beginning Santangel spoke to the Pope about the Inquisition as he was already concerned and didnt agree with it. I think it could've been 'easy' to not think too much more about bad things being done when it was his own belief and faith that Christians were the only right ones. Also perhaps he could think the people being taken by the Inquisition were liars or adulterers or people somehow deserving. But for someone close to you that you know is a good person, and loves God to be killed, its harder to try to be so understanding and justify it.

I think of course he felt guilty as well as it was his own curiosity that led to the meetings to learn about the Jewish faith and he allowed Felipe to join.

I never got the impression that Santangel wanted to go back to being a Jew. It always felt like he was curious to understand his family and history better through their traditions and faith. He wanted to stay a Christian but I felt his faith was not strong, (he did arrange a murder so yeah, not strong could be an understatement! :) ) he seemed passive and only trying to save himself. He never seemed overly religious or having a love for God. I think really the whole experience made his faith weaker. He bribed the King rather than try to repent (like his son did), so again this backs us he didnt really have a strong faith.

"What did you know about the Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834) prior to reading By Fire, By Water? How did this story influence or increase your understanding of this historical period?"

I must have learned about this in school as I knew quite a lot on the subject already. The forms of torture and some information given were things I was already familiar with.

One historical thing I found of interest was to do with the language in Spain. I live in Catalunya and of course the official language is Spanish but in reality it's not. They still speak Catalan first. Spanish is viewed as a second language.
when I first moved here and was learning Spanish I would say español all the time. There are a lot of South American's here and they also use this. The locals however all say Castellano. I know both terms are used over the world but I didnt fully understand why at first. I didnt realise that various parts of Spain had different languages and then it was only when it become one Spanish became the first language. I must've done some of that at school but I didnt remember!

Anyway sorry to go on, but I found that interesting reading about how the take over of the other regions of Spain happened.

One piece of the story that I did not quite understand was that secret Hebrew text that is smuggled to Santangel. I never figured out its significance or why he should be put in danger without his permission. Nor did I understand why he did not simply destroy it when he found it in his luggage.

I didn't understand that either. He didn't want those pamphlets or manuscript - just throw it away or burn it.
In the notes in the back of the book, the author says "No one knows when the Toledoth Yeshu was written. Fragments of it have been discovered in several ancient genizahs (storerooms for damaged texts), and the Church Fathers refer to it as early as the second century. It is true that Colon took a great interest in acquiring - sometimes, perhaps, by dubious means - the works of Jewish (and other) prophecy, apocryphal or not, and in their interpretation. However, there is no evidence that Colon every possessed this particular text."
I am not sure why it was included in the book except for historical reasons and to show that the possession of these pages would get one burned at the stake immediately. It does seem Santangel couldn't stop thinking of the pages, so Kaplan used that as one of the sparks to get the chancellor to look back into the faith of his fathers.
The more I think about this book, the more complex it becomes and the more I am glad I read it. It could send me down a Columbus and or Queen Isabel rabbit hole... Why did Columbus care about ancient texts? I don't know anything about his life either.

I also did not know anything about Columbus except for his voyage of discovery. I wonder what was fact and what fiction in his depiction in this novel.

What did you know about the Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834) prior to reading By Fire, By Water? How did this story influence or increase your understanding of this historical period?
I knew the basics of the Spanish Inquisition. This story made it more personal, depicting the tension within families.

In By Fire, By Water, trusting someone can lead to life or death. Discuss the various relationships in the novel that lead to both. What kind of trust do the characters have in God? How does trust vary depending on the character’s social class or religious beliefs?

Obviously, those characters with a strong belief in God also had greater trust that the suffering was part of a larger plan and that God was with them in their suffering. Those with only a cultural faith were more likely to trust in their own cunning or skills.

How do the female characters, living in a strongly patriarchal society, acquiesce to or rebel against their culture’s expectations of them? How does Judith break the mold for female behavior in her community? What about Judith catches Santángel’s eye, and later compels him to seek her out?

Judith is the most well developed character. She takes on the silversmith work to provide her family with an income. Of course, this is a novel so we can expect that she is automatically very talented. I don't know how historically realistic it is that she would take over this business. But I know nothing about Granada at this point. It would have been interesting if Gabriel's mother had been alive to compare her reaction to his incarceration, his conversion and renunciation of the family to that of his father.

What kind of a father is Santángel? Early in the novel, he tells his son a story about a man with a “great treasure” who is unable to show it to anyone (pages 30-31). To what is this story alluding? Do you think Gabriel really believed his father was unfaithful to the church or was Gabriel trying to protect his father by staying away from him?

I presumed that the treasure was their Jewish heritage. Santangel seemed to love his son. Their interactions were tender and joyful. But his career prevents him from being present to the child day in and day out. Some distance would have to creep in just because of the prolonged absences. He also exposed his son to unnecessary risk, putting his involvement in that plot over his son's safety.

What compels Santángel to learn about the Jewish faith? What is each group member’s purpose for joining his secret religious meetings? How does the small group help, support, or hurt its members?

Discuss the significance of the novel’s title, By Fire, By Water.

I assumed it was referring to the tortures of the Inquisition, particularly the means of execution. I toyed with the possibility that it might refer to the idea of baptism by water or by fire (martyrdom), but I don't see that playing out in the story.

The death of Felipe, Santángel’s assistant, in many ways acts as a catalyst. Why do you think this is the breaking point for Santángel? How does his secretary’s death affect his faith?

I don't know how it could not be a breaking point. It appears to be the most personal that the Inquisition with its torture and death had come to him at that point. Because the secretary's torture was connected to his hidden Jewish identity, it forced Santangel to examine his own life. Did he have the courage and integrity to die for who he was?

Why do you think Leonor, Felipe’s wife, feels so protective of Santángel when he is the one who allowed Felipe to join the secret group, and thus, is partially to blame for her husband’s death?

Because Santangel rescued her from abject poverty and gave her shelter when she was a social pariah.

On page 97, Judith loses Levi for an afternoon and, in her search and worrying, reassures herself that, “History never repeats itself.” Do you find evidence in the novel to support this claim?

No

What was your impression of King Fernando and Queen Ysabel? How do the monarchs differ from Granada’s emir? What do they have in common?

The monarch of Granada was portrayed as a man of self-possession, someone who was secure in his position, who had the well-being of his subjects at heart, someone who was far from petty. The tantrums and conniving of the Spanish monarchs made them look pathetic next to the monarch of Granada. But both monarchs did have a real sense of entitlement, a belief that they should have everything they desired, including girls for their beds.

What influence do religious leaders hold over the king and queen? How does this influence differ from that of Santángel and his money? Do you think any religious leaders have that sort of power today?

The king and queen, especially the queen, seemed to fear eternal hell. They need the sacraments of the Church. And the Church has an absolute monopoly on that grace in their view. The money that Santangel offers is important to keep the country going and meet their temperal ends, but he is not the only source for money and it does not have eternal implications. I don't know enough about various religious traditions and leaders that embrace them to know if any is that beholden to their religious leadership.

Letter writing, transcription, and written history play an enormous part in the novel. In what ways do characters use written communication to help them? In what ways does it haunt them?

What was your first impression of Estefan, Santángel’s brother? How do the brothers’ personalities and actions bring them to such different places in their lives?

How did the author’s depiction of Cristóbal Colón contradict or conflict with your own personal knowledge of Christopher Columbus, who famously discovered the NewWorld in 1492?

I knew nothing about Columbus except that he discovered North America for Europe. So this depiction did not confirm or challenge anything I knew.

Why is Colón so keen to push his foreign documents on Santángel? Do you believe their friendsh

This was the one aspect of the novel that totally confused me. I don't know why he saddled Santangel with those damaging documents or why Santangel held on to them.