Classics and the Western Canon discussion

It is now Day Seven, and it is Dioneo's turn to rule over the brigata. The stories this time are about the tricks that women play on their husbands "for the sake of love or their self-preservation." There is no moral compunction here, so I think the stories must exist for the sake of the storytelling itself. Which of these stories do you think are particularly well told?

I like Story 7 especially for its dramatic tension. Beatrice is in bed, holding Lodovico's hand, while she talks her husband into a trap. Meanwhile, Lodovico (and the reader) senses that Lodovico may be the one who is about to get caught. It's a delicate and extremely well executed scene.

I also like Story 8 because it's so ridiculous, and yet Bocaccio manages to pull it off somehow. Panfilo starts it off by saying that the story is unbelievable -- does this somehow help the reader to suspend disbelief? The suggestion that the pear tree is the cause of Nicostrato's faulty perception sounds like one of Descartes' thought experiments. The pear tree may as well be Nicostrato's "evil demon."

Which of the stories appealed to you?

Again, two of the men's stories break new ground in transgression: in #2 (Philostrato) and #9 (Pamphilo) the adulterous wife and her lover engage in coitus in the presence of the husband.

I enjoy the tales. Some of them were very edgy. I was quite amused to discover the inspiration for a scene in a Brazilian play The Rogues' Trial by Ariano Suassuna (turned into movie by the name of A dog's will https:// www. imdb. com/title/tt0271383/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1).

I put some spaces to workaround the GR prohibition to put external links. Just remove them and paste it in your browser if you want to.

It's interesting that in all of these stories the husbands suffer no harm in the end, and some even seem better off in that they are less jealous than before. Even Egano (7.7) is vaguely happy with his servant Anichino, despite his having taken a beating from him. "There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so", as Hamlet puts it.

I've also enjoyed these extremely funny and clever stories. The seventh one is my favorite as well, I like how the husband felt in the end that he's the most fortunate man on earth after being cuckolded and beaten by his servant.

Regarding the moral element, I wouldn't be so harsh on the wives, marriages were very different back then. Most, if not all, of the upper-class marriages, were arranged. It was more like a job. Moreover, elderly men of noble birth of considerable wealth often had young or even teenage "trophy wifes".

Some husbands did catch their wives but most reacted as some possession was stolen for them. Think about the eight-story, where the husband savagely beats the hell out of his wife (or more precisely the woman he thinks is his wife). He doesn't really care about her, it's all about his "possession" and his lost dignity. I'm not saying that only women were unhappy in their marriages and only men were possessive, but it was always harder for a woman to escape from an unhappy marriage.

Emil wrote: "Regarding the moral element, I wouldn't be so harsh on the wives, marriages were very different back then. Most, if not all, of the upper-class marriages, were arranged. It was more like a job. Moreover, elderly men of noble birth of considerable wealth often had young or even teenage "trophy wifes".
"

There also seems to be a tacit understanding that adultery for the sake of love was acceptable, or at least forgiveable, whereas adultery for the sake of money was not. This crops up a few times, for example in Filostrato's story about Madonna Filippa and the "reprehensible" statute in Prato that punished women caught in adultery without making this distinction. (6.7)

Emil wrote: "I've also enjoyed these extremely funny and clever stories. The seventh one is my favorite as well, I like how the husband felt in the end that he's the most fortunate man on earth after being cuck..."

Yeah, I think this was my least favorite story because of the brutal beating of the maid, which unlike the beating of Egano in story 7, which was a bit comical, was just cruel. (Just imagine beating someone until her face is unrecognizable) I also thought the way her brothers went off to their sister to punish her for their honor was somewhat like the horrific honor killings still committed nowadays. The way the lady quickly asks the maid to take her place even though she knew what kind of consequences she was facing shows another ugly facade of the class schema, which is also reflected in the way they show repellence at the nouveau riche husband with social ambitions.

Speaking of which, Boccaccio seems to deride not only Arriguccio for foolishly thinking to 'ennoble himself by marrying into the aristocracy' but also 'his counterparts' who have been doing continuously down to this very day'. Do you think 'his counterparts' are the women or the aristocrats who have been marrying the lesser noble for their wealth (and yet also wish to climb up the social ladder with the likes of the Guidi counts)?
I've noticed Boccaccio has a way of slyly dissing both the outwardly criticized character and the ones criticizing. A puzzling and controversial writer, he is.

Borum wrote: "I've noticed Boccaccio has a way of slyly dissing both the outwardly criticized character and the ones criticizing. A puzzling and controversial writer, he is. ..."

Thx for this comment, Borum. I had been having that feeling, but hadn't read closely enough to defend saying it!

Borum wrote: "Speaking of which, Boccaccio seems to deride not only Arriguccio for foolishly thinking to 'ennoble himself by marrying into the aristocracy' but also 'his counterparts' who have been doing continu..."

It seems to be a running theme that men who don't attend to their wives' sexual needs, whether it's because of age, or in this case because Arriguccio is a merchant and must be away on business a lot, shouldn't expect their wives to suffer in deprivation. I can see how a feminist argument could be made here, but I suspect that for Boccaccio this is just another observation of human nature. As horrible as it is, Arriguccio beating the maid (thinking it is wife) is also human nature. As was the corruption and chaos of Florentine society during the Plague.

By modern standards, 14th century Florence surely had a very patriarchal society. But women still had a lot of agency, and it's taken for granted that they enjoy sex just as much as men do. We have a whole day on women cheating on their husbands, and the topic was proposed by a man!

What is missing, from a modern point of view, is the romantic feeling of being soul mates, of completing each other, of belonging together. It's all very transactional.

Roger wrote: "What missing, from a modern point of view, is the romantic feeling of being soul mates, of completing each other, of belonging together. It's all very transactional...."

We had plenty of this romantic feeling on previous days. It should feel transactional, we're dealing with unhappy married women... they are just looking for some fun, not searching the love of their life.

Emil wrote: "Roger wrote: "What missing, from a modern point of view, is the romantic feeling of being soul mates, of completing each other, of belonging together. It's all very transactional...."

We had plent..."

I think we had plenty of infatuation. I don't recall any soul mates.

I think most of the people were faced with fortune’s vagaries, whether they were women or men, but the poor, the women and the lower class felt it more acutely and had to ‘’make most of “ what Fortune had to offer and treat the powerful and their belongings “the same way they treat us and ours.” as Lusca said in chapter 8. Tit for tat.

I think Boccaccio was brutally honest about human nature and made fun with the oppressor as well as letting the oppressed have their word or a fun of their own although being at the lower end of the fortune’s bargain. Most of Boccaccio’s characters are definitely not submissive unless they are too foolish. I think the Freedom is similar to escape, but freedom as the freedom of being themselves and accepting themselves as well as the freedom to reach for more than they are dealt with is a theme I’ve seen in most of the stories. (I guess all the lust and avarice is one way of showing it)

I feel as if I’m learning how to read this book by reading it. What reminds me of Dante is the complicated structure that scaffolds the stories — the different characters, their comments on the stories, the daily details of the brigata’s doings, the songs they sing, the subtle interactions and unspecified relationships between them, the daily themes, and then of course the stories themselves. I find it hard to know where to focus my attention ;). The discussion and comments are all very helpful. I was thinking about Chaucer today and how much simpler the organization of The Canterbury Tales is (fewer stories, of course)

Roger wrote: "What is missing, from a modern point of view, is the romantic feeling of being soul mates, of completing each other, of belonging together. It's all very transactional. "

It is curious that the songs at the end of the day are invariably about romantic love, and they are mostly unhappy. And then there's the author's motivation for writing the book, to offer "a succor and refuge for those who are in love."

Thomas wrote: "... The suggestion that the pear tree is the cause of Nicostrato's faulty perception sounds like one of Descartes' thought experiments. The pear tree may as well be Nicostrato's "evil demon."

This also reminded me of a movie "Being John Malkovich" where they enter into a portal to see through John Malkovich's eyes (or brain).

Roger wrote: "I think we had plenty of infatuation. I don't recall any soul mates...."


We had a lot more infatuation than romance, I can't disagree with you on that. But we also had some soul mates like the couple almost burned to the stake by the King of Sicily ( V,6), Gerbino's long-distance relationship ( IV, 4), or the girl who buried her lover's head in a pot ( IV,5).


Thomas wrote: "It is curious that the songs at the end of the day are invariably about romantic love, and they are mostly unhappy...."

"let's tell a story about a dead knight disemboweling a dead woman and afterward sing a sweet ballad about love"
Interesting contrast, but I couldn't stand the songs, they are way too sappy. Fortunately, they are quite short...

Emil wrote: "Interesting contrast, but I couldn't stand the songs, they are way too sappy. Fortunately, they are quite short...

I find that's true of most love songs when the music is stripped away. Falling in love is a magical experience when it happens to you, but when it happens to one of your friends it can be like watching someone get sloppy drunk at the dinner table.

Could the coarseness and ribaldry of the tales be a reaction to romantic love?

Here's a clue that these stories are all from Never Land: Despite all the enthusiastic coupling, there's never a mention of the possibility or the reality of an unwanted pregnancy. Or a wanted one, for that matter.

The one instance I can think of where pregnancy was an issue was in the story of Masetto, the mute gardener. One of the nuns worries about getting pregnant but the others tell her that they'll figure that one out later if it happens.

Thomas wrote: "Falling in love is a magical experience when it happens to you, but when it happens to one of your friends it can be like watching someone get sloppy drunk at the dinner table.

Could the coarseness and ribaldry of the tales be a reaction to romantic love?."

That description made me smile, Thomas, I am guessing you are not a fan of a romcom? :D

Personally I like both slushy sweet fluffy romantic stories, and more obsessional, dark passionate depictions of love. The way these stories are told though, love and lust seem to be quite interchangeable? Someone attractive sees another attractive person and they are immediately smitten and will go through all sorts of risks and endevours to gain access to one another's bed.
It makes me think of Marvell's 'To His Coy Mistress', with the continual repetition of the same theme over all these days,are the characters saying to each other, we are surrounded by death, we don't know when our time is up, let's have fun together while we are this side of the grave?