Classics and the Western Canon discussion

As the number of pages left in The Decameron continues to shrink, it is time to start the process of choosing our fifth major read of 2021. Along with a few hand picked selections by the moderators, the Random Book Generator™ has come up with these:

Nominees for the Fifth Major Read of 2021
Candide by Voltaire
Robinson Crusoe by Daniel Defoe
Letters from a Stoic by Seneca
Tess of the D'Urbervilles by Thomas Hardy
John Brown's Body by Stephen Vincent Benét
Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë
The Aeneid by Publius Vergilius Maro
Dracula by Bram Stoker

Upcoming Schedule

Sep 29 - Oct 5	The Decameron Week 8	This discussion
Oct 6 - Oct 12	The Decameron Week 9	Poll
Oct 13 - Oct 19	The Decameron Week 10	run-off Poll if needed
Oct 20 - Oct 26	Interim Read 1	Acquire book week 1
Oct 27 - Nov 2	Interim Read 2	Acquire book week 2
Nov 3 - Nov 9	Major read #5 begins

I am in a Halloween mood. Since I am going to miss patronizing the local haunted houses again this year, I am going to lobby for Dracula.

I'm up for Virgil.

I read 'Candide' when I was very young and didn't grasp it's importance, so would love to rediscover it through the group's discussion.

I'm surprisingly fine with all of these, leaning toward Vergil or Stoker.

I am good with any, but going with John Brown's Body for the Interim. It and the Seneca are the only ones listed that I don't recall having read several times.

Seems like perfect timing for Dracula. The actual book is my favorite version of the story (the ballet being my second favorite version). I’ve seen a lot of movies based on the book but none of them to me capture the thrill of the chase.

I'm good with Dracula, Candide or Letters from a Stoic. I've never heard of John Brown's Body so I'm interested in that one, too.

I liked Dracula but can’t fit a re- read in my schedule. I will go for Virgil and Letters from a Stoic.

Susan wrote: "I am good with any, but going with John Brown's Body for the Interim. It and the Seneca are the only ones listed that I don't recall having read several times."

An excerpt from John Brown's Body was one of the all time great interim reads in March of 2017.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Don't forget Tamara's recent mention in the teashop of a new translation of The Aeneid by Shadi Bartsch.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

The Aeneid is a welcome reread for this group, first read in October 2012.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

Mike wrote: "Seems like perfect timing for Dracula. The actual book is my favorite version of the story..."

I agree with you, Mike. Those opening chapters really set the mood.

It´s going to be a tough choice this time: although I'd like to read the Aeneis with this group, almost all the other options seem good to me too. I'm curious to see which one will win the poll

Tess of the D'Urbervilles may be among my top ten favorite novels and I'm always up for a re-read. The Aeneid's been on my "must-read-to-be-well-read" list for years now so I lean toward Virgil, or Seneca (who's on the same list). I've never heard of Benét. I can't refuse a chance at a new author.

I read Tess in high school, along with several other Hardy novels. I haven't gone back to him since, and I'd to take a look from the other end of life.

Jacob wrote: "Tess of the D'Urbervilles may be among my top ten favorite novels and I'm always up for a re-read. The Aeneid's been on my "must-read-to-be-well-read" list for years now so I lean toward Virgil, or..."

Tess is probably in my top novels too, I haven't read any Hardy novels for a couple of years but I always find his work devastating.

Clarissa wrote: "Tess is probably in my top novels too, I haven't read any Hardy novels for a couple of years but I always find his work devastating. ..."

"...devastating." ?? !!

The only two I haven't read are the Seneca and John Brown's Body. I like epic poems, so my vote is for John Brown.

Just to add some information: John Brown's Body is an epic poem -- 15,000 lines in blank verse -- about the American Civil War. Stephen Vincent Benet won the first Guggenheim ever awarded for poetry, went to live in Paris where the money would last longer, and wrote John Brown's Body (which won the Pulitzer Prize in 1929).

The poem revolves around fictional characters as well as historical ones. Benet always said he was writing poetry, not history, but Civil War historians such as Bruce Catton and Douglas Southall Freeman have acknowledged that the work is nevertheless historically accurate. In any case, the power and beauty of the work is in its poetry. It's been called an American Iliad.

the poll has been posted.
Voting starts on: Oct 05, 2021 09:00PM PDT

https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/2...

Thomas wrote: " In any case, the power and beauty of the work is in its poetry. It's been called an American Iliad...."

After rereading The Illiad, Beowulf and Ulysses earlier this year I was in the mood for another national epic. I was about to vote for The Aeneid but your post has made me curious about John Brown's Body. You said it's been called an American Iliad. Would it be too much to call it the American national epic?

I don't know if America has a national epic per se, but I would think JBB would be in the running for that title. There are some novels in prose that would probably come to mind first -- Huckleberry Finn, The Grapes of Wrath maybe. These are novels that to some extent acknowledge both the grand aspirations and the iniquities of the American spirit. But I can't think of another American poem that takes on the task and succeeds as well as John Brown's Body.

Thomas wrote: "I don't know if America has a national epic per se, but I would think JBB would be in the running for that title. There are some novels in prose that would probably come to mind first -- Huckleberr..."

Walt Whitman's 'Leaves of Grass'? I think I remember from the introduction that he at least was aiming himself to great an American poetic voice.

Whitman is definitely one of the great American poets, but Leaves of Grass is a collection of poems rather than an epic.

Thomas wrote: "Whitman is definitely one of the great American poets, but Leaves of Grass is a collection of poems rather than an epic."

I remember one of the poems being quite long? What do you think qualifies something as an epic? Strangely someone was asking me this question about films, and I found it near impossible to define!

TO FOREIGN LANDS.
I heard that you ask’d for something to prove this puzzle the New World,
And to define America, her athletic Democracy,
Therefore I send you my poems that you behold in them what you wanted.

Whitman, Walt. Leaves of Grass

Clarissa wrote: "I remember one of the poems being quite long? What do you think qualifies something as an epic? Strangely someone was asking me this question about films, and I found it near impossible to define! ."

Great question, and I agree it's hard to define. My notion of an epic poem might be too narrow, but I think of it as a long poem focusing on a few characters, usually one in particular, the hero or heroine who undergoes a journey and endures great trials, and the story is typically based on a deeper "national" mythology. The Iliad and the Odyssey set the mold for this, but it's not exclusive to the West -- the great Indian epics Ramayana and Mahabharata would also quailfy.

Thomas wrote: "Clarissa wrote: "I remember one of the poems being quite long? What do you think qualifies something as an epic? Strangely someone was asking me this question about films, and I found it near impos..."

So for you an epic poem, is something that is more narrative driven? So T S Eliot's 'Wasteland' might not count?

Don't forget to vote: The poll ends at: Oct 12, 2021 08:59PM PDT
https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/2...

Here are my highly subjective thoughts on the nominees.

The Aeneid: This was an outstanding group read the first time around in 2012. Wow, 9 years ago! It was a daunting choice but very rewarding; tamed by the group and skillful moderation. Big works like this epitomize what this group does best.

Dracula - Dracula is on my favorites shelf and I will be voting for it. I am very curious to see how this book fares as a group read. Also, it is the Halloween season. . .

John Brown's Body an excerpt was read in March of 2017 as an interim read lead by Eman. It inspired a very engaging discussion about the poem itself, American history, and questions regarding civil disobedience.

Robinson Crusoe - I have a soft spot for this one. I read this in the 7th grade for an assignment that combined a biographical book report with public speaking. We were to read a "biography" and then give a 15 minute oral summary of it dressed as the subject in front of the entire class. Ignoring the fact that biographies were about real people, I chose Robinson Crusoe and appeared in an old linen shirt, ragged pants ripped at the knees, and a homemade umbrella made of sticks and rags tied together. My fictional faux pax was embarrassing at the time, but at least it is memorable.

Letters from a Stoic - One never tires of "reading" good advice, right?

Despite my confidence they would all be great group reads, the last three, Tess..., Jane Eyre, and, Candide fall under Mark Twain's definition of classic for me.

-- something that everybody wants to have read and nobody wants to read.
Samuel "Mark Twain" Clemens The Disappearance of Literature" speech, 20 November 1900

Re: Candide — John Updike, novelist and critic, said of this very funny, still pertinent short novel: “The prince of philosophic novels…Candide distills the sparkling spirit of Voltaire and the Enlightenment.” If I hadn’t read it recently, I’d be voting for it because it would make for a great discussion.

And to give an idea of Voltaire’s sly sense of humor — due to controversy he initially denied writing it, commenting “They must have lost their minds if they think that I wrote this trash.” ;)

Susan wrote: "Re: Candide — John Updike, novelist and critic, said of this very funny, still pertinent short novel: “The prince of philosophic novels…Candide distills the sparkling spirit of Voltaire and the Enl..."

It was my son's favorite read out of his college literature requirements. I stumble over it, but have read enough to see why it was a "fit" for him. He has a better sense of humor and irony than I do,

Tess lent me some of my strongest discussion interactions with Eman, but not on this board as I recall. I applaud the votes I see for it, although it won't have mine.

For me, Jane Eyre needs to be paired with Wide Sargasso Sea.

David wrote: "Despite my confidence they would all be great group reads, the last three, Tess..., Jane Eyre, and, Candide fall under Mark Twain's definition of classic for me.
-- something that everybody wants to have read and nobody wants to read.."

Why is that? I would have thought all three, especially Jane Eyre, are more widely read than any of the others on the list, except perhaps Dracula. Or do you mean they're novels that you yourself would like to have read but don't want to read. In that case, you describe what the Aeneid is for me.

Jacob wrote: "Why is that?. . .Or do you mean they're novels that you yourself would like to have read but don't want to read."

Yes, I was being highly subjective there; full of biased prejudice of books I know nothing about except for their reputations as classics for reasons I am unaware of. While I have to admit some hesitancy in reading certain titles, I have learned better to push through that hesitancy and just read them along with this group. I have often been surprised how rewarding these works are which only adds to my enjoyment of them.

David wrote: "Jacob wrote: "Why is that?. . .Or do you mean they're novels that you yourself would like to have read but don't want to read."

Yes, I was being highly subjective there; full of biased prejudice o..."

It looks like 'Dracula' is winning, so you will be spared them for a while longer :)

Listen to the Classics and Western Cannon members, the voters of the night. What music they make!” Yes, Dracula is our winner based on raw and weighted votes.

R	W	BOOK
7	16	Dracula
6	10	The Aneid
4	6	Tess of D'Urbervilles
1	3	Robinson Crusoe
1	3	Jane Eyre
2	3	John Brown's Body
1	2	Candide
0	0	Letters from a Stoic

There will be a 2 week interim read to allow member to acquire the book and begin reading ahead for the discussion starting November 3rd. A Dracula folder with topics for the reading schedule and background information will be posted soon.

Oct 20 - Oct 26 Interim Read Week 1
Oct 27 - Nov 2 Interim Read Week 2
Nov 3 - Nov 9 Dracula Week 1 Discussion begins

Thank you to everyone who participated in the poll. I look forward to all of you joining in the reading and discussion of Dracula.

Great choice! Looking forward to joining you all again!

Kathy wrote: "Great choice! Looking forward to joining you all again!"

Look forward to "hearing" your voice once again, Kathy.