Catholic Thought discussion
How Catholic Art Saved the Faith
>
Week 5: Chapters 16 - 19
date
newest »
newest »
Mod
Mod
I'm also fascinated by how the four figures if you include the donkey surround the central figures of Mary and Elizabeth. They create a balance while still directing the eyes toward the sanctuary. Obviously the bread and wine point to the sacrifice of the Mass. Some questions. (1) How do we know the man picking up the bread and wine is St. Joseph? I have no idea why he's identified as St. Joseph. I didn't even think St. Joseph went with Mary to visit Elizabeth. (2) Why is the servant girl carrying two chicks? What do they symbolize? One chick perhaps as the Holy Spirit but two? (3) Does the blue of Mary's cape clash with the rest of the painting? Most of the painting is built on greens, yellows, and browns. It does make Mary stand out. (4) Why are the men presented so weak while the three women all project a power? Zacharia looks kind of silly - intentionally so I think - while Joseph is in a stooping posture. He looks like a servant actually. The women are big and physically stronger than the men and powerfully set in their postures.
Things to ponder. I do think that is a great painting.
Mod
Mod
I was wondering the same thing. I think it is a bit of a stretch. I don't recall ever hearing of the Visitation as being a type of pilgrimage.
When we go on pilgrimage we have a destination in mind, a shrine or holy place that connects us deeper to our faith. We are the ones seeking them out. We go from a lower level of spirituality to a higher level of spirituality - at least this is the intent. Where does this spiritual ascension happen in the Visitation? Mary already has Jesus, the ultimate destination, in utero. If Elizabeth had come to visit the Virgin, then it would mirror a pilgrimage. As it is, the story seems more of a Eucharistic procession with the Virgin the living monstrance.
Mod
Mod
During this time period we also have the Age of Exploration and the dawn of modern science. New lands are being discovered, and new technologies invented. For Protestants this was a re-affirmation of old traditions being obsolete and also a false narrative being proclaimed that the Church is anti-science, a falsehood with very long legs as we are still dealing with it today. Lev skirts the Galileo controversy and I don’t think she got it quite right. Here is how I understand it:
It is often said in so many words that the Church slammed Galileo for “discovering” that the earth circles the sun. The Church didn’t like this for it “threatened” Christian teaching. This is mostly bunk. That we live in a heliocentric solar system was suspected centuries before Galileo. He certainly advances the knowledge to that end, there is no doubt about that. However, the big sticking point at the time was that it couldn’t be proven. It wasn’t until Isaac Newton, who was born the same year Galileo died, and his work on gravity that we had proof. So Galileo was cautioned to be careful in how he phrased things, for the Church couldn’t give her blessing on such a far-reaching matter based only on hypothesis. The nature of our solar system never in any shape or form “threatened” Christian teaching. Unfortunately Galileo didn’t have the requisite humility and went ahead anyway. This forced the Church to take action. In other words, Galileo got into trouble for being a royal jerk, not for the science itself.
Artwork featured:
Gallery of Maps by Ignazio Danti
Portrait of a Botanist by Bartolomeo Passarotti
Portrait of an Astronomer by Bartolomeo Passarotti
The Astronomers by Noccolo Tornioli
Chapter 19: The Blood of the Martyrs is the Seed of the Church
Part of the Protestant claim was that they were going back to basics, to the time the Apostles and the early Church, to ditch the baggage of Tradition and other inventions of the Church. In defense of the Church were the martyrs of the early centuries themselves, and the catacombs where they were laid to rest could be visited. Old churches dating way back were also highlighted and their role as places of administering the sacraments over the centuries.
Artwork featured:
Martyrdom of St. Cecilia by Stefano Maderno
Frescoes in San Stefano Rotondo
Sts. Praxedes and Pudenziana Collecting the Blood of the Martyrs by Giovanni Paolo Rossetti
The Flaggelation by Federico Zuccari
I have to say that reading chapter 19 last night and then offering the Mass for St. Cecilia's feast this morning was wonderfully fitting. It also led me to think a little bit more about the relics in the altar and how, in the old rite, the priest prays for the intercession of those saints as he ascends the altar, specifically joining the Church Militant and Church Triumphant in the Sacrifice. Altars like St. Cecilia's that actually contain the saints' tombs make that doubly present to the mind.
Mod
Thank you for that observation Joseph. I would have never thought about that.
I too had not ever considered the Visitation as a pilgrimage. For me its an example of Mary modeling how we serve others selflessly regardless of our own struggles. However, I looked up the definition of pilgrimage to se how Webster’s defines it. Webster’s says its a journey to a sacred place as an act of religious devotion. So also defined as a place, not a person. But the intent in the end is to go to a place for a deeper connection with a person, in most cases, God but sometimes saints. Perhaps the author felt Mary seeking out the one who would some day prepare the way of the Messiah could be characterized as a pilgrimage. Mary knew Elizabeth was pregnant. She must have known there was something far more significant to the pregnancy than an elderly woman giving birth in her old age. And Mary couldn’t have been going in the capacity of a midwife. At 14 it’s highly unlikely she knew about such things. So surely there would have been other women to care for Elizabeth. There had to be something far more significant, more spiritual for why Mary went. This meeting between Jesus and St John in utero were important. Is that what drew Mary to make the journey? This is the first time I’ve looked at the Visitation at a deeper level. Certainly warrants a bit more consideration. Now I’m curious to find other analyses of the Visitation.
On another topic, I’ve become very aware that I’m drawn more to Caravaggio’s style of a closer, more intimate focus on his subjects. The realism of his style that seems to perfectly capture the facial expressions, the physiques of the subjects, and the general emotion conveyed in the moment draws me in and evokes emotion. I’m less intrigued by Rubens with his cast of thousands in The Miracles of St Francis Xavier. For me it’s too much to see and take in. It feels less intimate. Caravaggio’s St Thomas (ch. 15) has always been a favorite of mine because I feel like I’m right there with him in that incredulous moment.Is there a particular style or portrayal of the subject matter that resonates with you?
Mod
The Visitation is subtly one of the most important moral examples in the New Testament. It dawned on me how important it was while going to a visit to my mother one evening and connecting the visit to the rosary mystery I had recently prayed. It highlighted my mother's day, and really when we visit someone in love it really is acting in God's love.
Mod
."
I may have said earlier, but the paintings of Leonardo Da Vinci are the greatest. In a way he transcends both in the same painting.Just think of the facial features of The Last Supper or the Mona Lisa, and yet they project space and dimension beyond the immediate. Check out his Annunciation or his various Madonnas or Jerome in the Desert. For me he's the tops of the painting world. I wish he had painted more.
Just an aside--link here to an article by Joseph Pearce on his favorite paintings. I thought it was interesting in the context we've been reading about here.https://theimaginativeconservative.or...
Mod
https://theimaginativeconservative.or..."
I saw that the other day. He picked a curious set.
"He picked a curious set." He did indeed!
Mod
It is harder to take in. I think what Rubens does well is give us a portrait of how faith touches everyone. Miracles happen everywhere.
Caravaggio and Rubens are worlds apart in style. It astonishes me how much Caravaggio is an artist for the 21s century, so many hundreds of years after he painted these masterpieces. I always feel drawn into the moment of his paintings. They're intense.Yet I can't overlook the Rubens we're talking about. It's true - my eye skips all over the place before settling, somewhat and briefly, on the figure of St. Francis Xavier. I agree with Catherine that the painting feels less intimate. But I'm drawn to the exploration it demands. Every time I revisit it, I check out a different figure and am happy to see so many different types of people represented.
Isn't it wonderful how we each respond to and interact with the art? There are so many possibilities. I often have questions, as Manny does with the Barocci (I haven't explored that one as deeply). Specifically, in the Rubens, who is represented by the horned face/bust near the top left.
Kerstin, it always bothers me when I see the Galileo difficulties misrepresented. It's a wonder anyone can see past the narrative that's been pushed by so many (outside the Church) for so long.
Joseph wrote: "I have to say that reading chapter 19 last night and then offering the Mass for St. Cecilia's feast this morning was wonderfully fitting. It also led me to think a little bit more about the relics ..."Joseph, I never knew that. Thanks for sharing. Your comment reminds me to check with my pastor about how to handle the Pope St. Pius X relic I found among my father's things when he passed. I put it away for safekeeping, unsure if I should keep it or give it to the parish or diocese. If my rusty Latin and Google Translate are correct, it seems to be an actual first class relic, although I don't understand how that would have made its way to Brooklyn, N.Y. Sorry, strayed way off topic.
Gerri, relics are often given as gifts. Donating it to your parish or diocese would be perfectly appropriate. If you do decide to keep it, make sure you make some specific instructions for it later, there's apparently been a thing of relics showing up in auction houses from estate sales.
Mod
The thing with false narratives, they will always make those fools who don't know the facts.
Mod
I can't say I found the paintings in these two chapters that interesting. Seems like the influence of the Renaissance is waning at this point.
Mod
"The Protestants, despite the mantra of justification by faith alone, demanded constant proofs, demanded constant proofs, whether of Purgatory or intercession or indulgences." Centuries of tradition and magisterial teaching on biblical revelation were no longer sufficient for them. Proof was confined to a personal understanding of Scripture, and when Scripture did not match the Reformer's ideas, it was removed, as in the case of Tobit, Judith, First and Second Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, and Baruch. As people grew in experience and knowledge of this world, they learned to demand proof but didn't always know how to weave discovery into the fabric of faith" (211-12).
So they insisted on faith alone, and then when you show them you have faith in particular doctrines that had a long tradition, they demanded scriptural proof, and yet each Protestant had their own interpretation of scripture. So if their personal interpretation was allowed and acceptable, then why wouldn't the Catholic interpretation be acceptable? And when you showed them that particular doctrines were in particular books of the Bible, they dropped those books from their cannon. Interesting.
Joseph wrote: "Gerri, relics are often given as gifts. Donating it to your parish or diocese would be perfectly appropriate. ..."I feel it belongs in a sacred space, so I will donate it. Quickly. How awful that relics are showing up for sale.
Manny wrote: "Lev makes an interesting theological point at the beginning of Chapter 18, "Empiricism and Faith." She says: "The Protestants, despite the mantra of justification by faith alone, demanded constan..."
That is interesting, Manny. It also helps me realize how much the Reformation relied on the forcefulness and personalities of the leading individuals, who then ended up fighting among themselves almost from the beginning.
Just last night I watched a short video by Fr. Mike Schmitz, 'Why Be Catholic and Not Just Christian?' He makes an important point about authority of the Church. It's one good reason why the reformers should have been willing to accept Catholic interpretation. They just didn't want to. Here's the link to the video - it's only 8 minutes long: https://youtu.be/jJCbCs-y1_k
Mod
Joseph wrote: It also led me to think a little bit more about the relics in the altar and how, in the old rite, the priest prays for the intercession of those saints as he ascends the altar, specifically joining the Church Militant and Church Triumphant in the Sacrifice.
"
I love that thought and it's an image I'll bring with me to Mass. Thank you.
The Reformation was full of contradictions. For the sola scriptura crowd, the rejection of relics would also have been a rejection of what Scripture reflected in Acts 19. I had to look it up but I remember reading a few years ago that the Catholic belief in relics stemmed from, among other Scripture passages, Act 19:11-12. As I reread that chapter, in verse 9 it speaks of some being obstinate and disparaging of the Way. So it goes back to there's nothing new under the sun. Healings occurred by the touch of a cloth (Paul's) or the touching of a robe's hem (Jesus's in particular) but they were based in faith in the power of God as stated in Acts 19. This was no magic trick or weird voodoo. Not to the so-called reformers who clearly eschewed anything Catholic. Their sola fide then became sola scriptura as they wanted Biblical proof, as Lev states. Did they miss the book of Acts in Scripture?
Mod
Christians have gone on pilgrimage for a very long time. St. Helena, for instance, went to the Holy Land and found the True Cross. We have sought to visit the places deeply connected to our faith but also to bring about spiritual and physical healing. Luther took a dim view of this, as he took anything that smacked of “works.”
Artwork featured:
The Visitation by Federico Barocci
Madonna of the Pilgrims by Caravaggio
Chapter 17: Globalization, Catholic Style
The time of the Catholic Restauration was also the time of Exploration. As ships sailed to unknown shores in search of spices and other riches, the missionary zeal of the Church was not far behind. The newly founded Society of Jesus sent many missionaries out to these foreign lands, the most famous being St. Francis Xavier. In 1622 Pope Gregory XV founded the Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith to aid in the Church’s missionary efforts.
Artwork featured:
The Miracles of St. Francis Xavier by Peter Paul Rubens
Ceiling of Magi Chapel by Francesco Borromini
Fountain of the Four Rivers by Bernini