SciFi and Fantasy Book Club discussion

I'm looking for recommendations from the longer fantasy series loving folks.

2 years ago I would have said that I don't care for epic Fantasy at all, but since then I learned that there are some series that I actually care a lot for. So I'm on the lookout for jewels I might not find in the vastness of Fantasy series without a bit of a shove.

I seem to need a series with at least:

- original worldbuilding (if possible with no dragons)
- realistic and layered character setup and development - I must care deeply for one or more characters or I won't read on
- multi POVs (in case I can't stand the just one main character)

Two series that worked for me

- Stormlight Archives by Brandon Sanderson
- Shadows of the Apt by Adrian Tchaikovsky

Some of the series I tried, but that didn't work (for a multitude of various reasons)

- The Realm of the Elderlings by Robin Hobb
- The Iron Druid Chronicles by Kevin Hearne
- Gentleman Bastard by Scott Lynch
- Between Earth and Sky by Rebecca Roanhouse
- The Shroud of Prophecy by Kel Kade
- Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo
- The Goblin Emperor by Katherine Addison
- Temeraire by Naomi Novik
- The Broken Empire by Mark Lawrence
- Lightbringer by Brent Weeks
- The First Law by Joe Abercrombie
- A Song of Ice and Fire by GRRM
- The Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss
- Book of the Ancestor by Mark Lawrence
- The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan

The Malazan series is already on my screen.

Does anybody have any more recommendations according to my yes/no lists above? (and, please, I don't want to discuss why I don't like some of the series, it's just not my taste, that's it.)

Thanks a lot, Matt! I knew I had forgotten something. I've read the Shannara series in my youth and liked it a lot back then, but it somehow didn't work the same way when I re-read the first two trilogies this sommer. I should try some of the later books for a change.

Having just finished the final book, I can wholeheartedly recommend The Books of Babel series by Josiah Bancroft, starting with Senlin Ascends.

- It's a very original mix of fantasy and steampunk in an equally original setting. Also, no dragons here.
- While the first book mainly focusses on Senlin, throughout the series there are multiple POVs and a whole bunch of multilayered and very relatable characters, all of whom I came to care for in one way or another, which is a rare thing indeed.

Hans wrote: "Having just finished the final book, I can wholeheartedly recommend The Books of Babel series by Josiah Bancroft, starting with Senlin Ascends.
..."

Thank you, Hans! I've heard a lot of good about this series. I love that you say there are characters to care for in the series. I will definitely dive into it and push it up my tbr.

Did you try The Final Empire
This is also from the author of The Way of Kings

Enchanters' End Game?

This is hard... lol. You've already said no to so many of my favorites... I'll BRB. going to the think tank...

Andres wrote: "Enchanters' End Game?"

I've read the first novel in this series and wasn't hooked.


Andres wrote: "Did you try The Final Empire
This is also from the author of The Way of Kings"

Yes I did. I was looking for series longer than trilogies, because those seem to be the books I most frequently abandon.

Sabriel ?

Did you like Jim Butcher? You might like Fated

This will be rather long.

Not to everyone's taste, but worth looking at, are the fantasy novels of E.R. Eddison, which belong to the 1920s-1940s. They make a lot of demands on the reader.

If you have read a lot of Shakespeare, and maybe some Elizabethan and seventeenth-century prose, including the King James Version of the Bible, it may be more immediately acceptable. If not, the style of almost all of it may put you off, although you can get used to it. Having a good dictionary may help, but is probably not essential. (The Kindle dictionary is usually, but not always, helpful. The best resource is the full Oxford English Dictionary -- from which Eddison apparently extracted some very rare words which he liked.)

Ballantine paperbacks of all of the books appeared when I was in High School, and I loved them at the time, but easy reading they were not -- although being an English Major in college and graduate school later smoothed the way for re-readings.

There are four volumes. The first, and probably the easiest in terms of plot and thought, is The Worm Ouroboros. It is, for all practical purposes, a stand-alone book, and full of adventures and wars, with a generally medieval tone, so far as it represents anything in history.

It was much admired by C.S. Lewis, Tolkien, Fritz Leiber, Poul Anderson, Diane Duane, and a bunch of other fantasy writers. It is sometimes fairly sophisticated: the best, or at least most interesting, character is technically a villain for most the book.

Unfortunately, Eddison had originally conceived some of the characters and the setting in his childhood, and never rooted out some of the awkward character names, or the naming of kingdoms after supernatural beings (Witchland, Demonland, Goblinland, Pixyland) which have nothing to do with the story. E.g., the Demons are the heroes. (Tolkien, of course, was disappointed by the nomenclature.)

And, except for the opening, it is set on a place called Mercury, which, as C.S. Lewis observed, is not the planet, but more like Earth under the astrological "House" of Mercury.

"Worm" is out of copyright, and therefore available in a lot of Kindle editions, some of them very bad, but cheap. I haven't kept track of them for years, as they are in and out of availability.

Connected to "Worm" only through a few place-names and one character, is the Zimiamvia Cycle, often mislabeled, by careless critics and often by publishers, a trilogy. It is set in an imaginary world, in countries which resemble the Italian Renaissance as much as anything else, and is filled with dynastic wars, political intrigues, and love affairs.

It is actually an open-ended series, written and published in almost reverse chronological order, as: Mistress of Mistresses, A Fish Dinner in Memison, and The Mezentian Gate.

The author was planning a fourth volume while working on "The Mezentian Gate," during WW II, but died before completing "Gate" to his satisfaction. It is technically unfinished, but complete chapter summaries fill out the story. And some may prefer them to his full-blown style.

"Gate" is set a generation earlier than "Mistress," and is probably the easiest to read in terms of prose style, even leaving aside the bare-bones chapters. Part way through it encapsulates the events in "A Fish Dinner," which can be read at that point, and then picks up the plot to finish not long before the opening of "Mistress."

This order of reading spoils some surprised in "Mistress," but things like the relationship of our world to Zimiamvia make a great deal more sense: but if you can put up with waiting to have things explained, you can read it in publication order.

The whole thing, including "Worm," is available in a Kindle omnibus as The Complete Zimiamvia. It has the books in publication order. Given the size, it is currently remarkably inexpensive. (And you can return it if you decide quickly enough that you will not enjoy it.)

Hard copies of the individual volumes are sometimes available, and for the committed there is the annotated Zimiamvia: A Trilogy, which was the textual basis for the omnibus. These two editions contain more of "Mezentian Gate" than was included in its original, posthumous, publication, which makes it considerably more desirable if you turn out to like Eddison. It is out of print, but used copies may be available.

Andres wrote: "This is hard... lol. You've already said no to so many of my favorites... I'll BRB. going to the think tank..."

yes, I know, I'm sorry ^^'. I am a horrible person when it comes to epic Fantasy.

I've heard not so favourable comments about Sabriel from some folks. But this is one I will definitely read myself, because it is on the groupshelf.

I haven't read Jim Butcher. His Dresden Files sound like they have that kind of protagonist I don't like. But of course I can fall prey to prejudice here.

Have you tried Michael J. Sullivan's Riyria series? Starting with Theft of Swords.

Or for that matter, Janny Wurts' War of Light and Shadow series, starting with The Curse of the Mistwraith. These books average 800-ish pages a piece.

Thanks a lot, Ian. This may be another prejudice from my side, but so far I haven't read any books from the earlier decades that made me care in any way for the characters. And most of the time they don't have the gender equality that I like them to have. Strong, flawed and dedicated female characters like Che Maker from Shadows of the Apt or Shallan from Stormlight Archives are nothing I have encountered with older authors so far.

Of course I will gladly be persuaded by the opposite.

Michelle wrote: "Or for that matter, Janny Wurts' War of Light and Shadow series, starting with The Curse of the Mistwraith. These books average 800-ish pages a piece."

Ha! This one I don't know. Thank you very much, Michelle!

Michelle wrote: "Have you tried Michael J. Sullivan's Riyria series? Starting with Theft of Swords."

I've read The Crown Conspiracy ... and ^^' ... sorry, ... I wasn't hooked either.

Mistborn: The Wax and Wayne Series:

I haven't read these myself but I understand it continues after Mistborn. Since you are in Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere, you might as well continue reading his 27 books? Try the Elantris ones next.
Elantris or Warbreaker

These will at least give you something to read in between finding your next big series and you're already a couple shards into his Cosmere with stormlight and mistborn.

I second the Mistborn: The Wax and Wayne Series:. Although I like the original Mistborn books, I found this to be by far Brandon Sanderson's most readable series. The characters are a lot more relatable than for example those in The Way of Kings and most importantly, the books aren't 1000-page-monsters with huge infodump sections.

Seeing as you are a fellow German, have you tried Ulldart - Die dunkle Zeit by Markus Heitz? It's been quite a while since I read it but I think it still holds up as his best and most original series.

Also, if you're not sure about The Dresden Files and also didn't really get into The Iron Druid Chronicles but are generally willing to read urban fantasy, maybe give the Daniel Faust series by Craig Schaefer a try. I find that it circumvents most of the trappings of urban fantasy, such as onedimensional characters, overly cheesy romance or that latent whiff of sexism we sometimes find in the Dresden Files. If you're into it you're in for a treat, because the series is deeply interconnected with two of his other series and one trilogy.

Gabi wrote: "Thanks a lot, Ian. This may be another prejudice from my side, but so far I haven't read any books from the earlier decades that made me care in any way for the characters. And most of the time the..."

The Complete Morgaine definitely has a flawed female character but it's written from the point of view of a much weaker male character. It's available in the individual books too.

Louise Cooper's Indigo series, unfortunately not available in digital format).

The Shannara series I didn't like at all (I just read the first three) as it seemed like a retelling of Lord of the Rings

I think you really love non-neurotypical but kind characters being heroes and friends, so you might like:

- The Bone Ships and Age of Assassins by RJ Barker (Age of Assassins starts with a coming-of-age story which I know you dislike, so maybe Bone Ships would be better to start with)
- Raven's Shadow by Patricia Briggs (slow start, but you'll love it as soon as you meet the children)
- Six Crimson Cranes (a mix of fairy-tale-retelling and epic fantasy, Asian setting, heroine can't speak, dragons, beautiful prose)
- The Unspoken Name (I love this one so much, beautiful prose, too)
- Dragon Mage by ML Spencer (despite of being coming-of-age)

I hope at least some of the above will be right for you! :-)

You could also try Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London series. It's currently at 8 books, several novellas, a fair few graphic novels, some short stories, and counting.

It's quite different, as it's based around the magical branch of the London Metropolitan police. I really love the stories. (I also love the Stormlight Archive).

Leonie wrote: "You could also try Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London series. It's currently at 8 books, several novellas, a fair few graphic novels, some short stories, and counting..."

Oh, yes, that is a great suggestion, especially since it has an awesome, diverse cast of characters and the mythology around London is just so immersive. It's almost as if the city itself was a character.

Andres wrote: "Mistborn: The Wax and Wayne Series:

I haven't read these myself but I understand it continues after Mistborn. Since you are in Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere, you might as well contin..."

Thanks, Andres. I think the Wax and Wayne series are the only books that I haven't read from the Cosmere yet. They are definitely on my screen!

Hans wrote: "The characters are a lot more relatable than for example those in The Way of Kings and most importantly, the books aren't 1000-page-monsters with huge infodump sections..."

Talking ill about my most beloved series doesn't help in this thread *smile*.

On another note: The Ulldart series you were mentioning - does it have multi POVs and deep layered characters? I have never read anything by Markus Heitz - which is a shame, being German, I know ... ^^'

CBRetriever wrote: "...The Complete Morgaine definitely has a flawed female character but it's written from the point of view of a much weaker male character. It's available in the individual books too.

Louise Cooper's Indigo series, unfortunately not available in digital format)..."

Thank you, CBRetriever. I've only read Cherryh's SF so far. Does she write differently in her Fantasy? I found her SF very well done on a theoretical level, but lacking in characters I could care for.

The Indigo series indeed is only available as used paperback for me at a price of 67 Euro ... ^^'

Eva wrote: "I think you really love non-neurotypical but kind characters being heroes and friends, ..."

Spot on description, Eva!

R.J. Baker is a definitive must for me. I've seen him together with Adrian Tchaikovsky in a talk where they were bantering the whole time - adorable. I have to read him.

The Unspoken Name was unfortunately a dnf for me, but Raven's Shadow and Six Crimson Cranes look good. I put them on my list. Thank you, Eva!


Leonie wrote: "You could also try Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London series. It's currently at 8 books, several novellas, a fair few graphic novels, some short stories, and counting..."

^^' Thank you Leonie, but I have to admit that I wasn't much into the first book in this series and abandonned it ^^'. I think Urban Fantasy as a whole is just not my thing.

Gabi wrote: "Andres wrote: "Mistborn: The Wax and Wayne Series:

I haven't read these myself but I understand it continues after Mistborn. Since you are in Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere, you might..."

With regard to Morgaine, I have always thought of the books a cross-over fantasy/science fiction. I have even seen people place them in the Union/Company universe. That said, Morgaine is a singular character: driven and obsessed with completing an impossible mission and knowing she will die in the attempt. The books are told through the POV of Vanye, her loyal subordinate. Worth noting is the gap between the third book, Fires of Azeroth (1979) and the fourth and final, Exile's Gate (1988). Cherryh softened Morgaine's hard edges and the relationship with Vanye in the last and provided more backstory.

Gabi wrote: "Andres wrote: "Mistborn: The Wax and Wayne Series:

I haven't read these myself but I understand it continues after Mistborn. Since you are in Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere, you might..."

I respect the hell out of Brandon Sanderson and The Stormlight Archive, but I never really got into it. The books are just too long for my tastes and for all the really cool parts there were very long stretches I didn't care about in the least. I do realise that this might be a unpopular opinion among fantasy lovers though :). But I always prefered his shorter and more condensed works.

Regarding Ulldart: Yes, it has a whole bunch of multilayered characters and some of them go through developments you might not expect. There are also several POVs, the number grows as the series progresses. My favourites are a jovial and pretty excentric king and his jester, their relationship and role within the series is quite awesome.

The first three books of Die Zwerge are also pretty great for many of the same reasons, but be aware that later books by Markus Heitz can be a bit hit or miss since he has an output similar to that of Brandon Sanderson but his books don't always come with the same writing skills and tend to loose themselves in clichés and a lack of editing.

I like CJ Cherryh's Russian-inspired fantasy, which starts with Rusalka. Terrific atmosphere!! But it's only three books and I think you want something longer.

How about Codex Alera by Jim Butcher? It's the result of a bet that he couldn't write an epic fantasy series based on two >lame< ideas being “Lost Roman Legion" and “Pokémon”.

maybe Inda by Sherwood Smith?

No dragons, original world, very in-depth. Lots of POVs (it's something some people dislike about the book) and a lot of character development. A huge cast of characters, so it can be a bit slow to start since you are getting to know everyone.

That's a terrific series!

Chronicles of the Unhewn Throne by Brian Staveley!

Thank you everybody for all the suggestions. You are so much appreciated!


I will have a look at them and then come back here to tell how they worked for me.

There is a booktuber called Petrik Leo that has often very good tips, one of his videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzuyY...

As far as new fantasy series go I want to start The Queens of Renthia by Sarah Beth Durst and see if this author is as good as people say.

(I've read Renthia and I don't think it's for Gabi.)

Leticia wrote: "There is a booktuber called Petrik Leo that has often very good tips, one of his videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzuyY..."

Thank you for the link. Perhaps I'll have a look. I have my problems with booktubers. I'd love to read an article about stuff, but listening to others go on about books just doesn't work for me. ^^'

Anna wrote: "(I've read Renthia and I don't think it's for Gabi.)"

Oh o! In Anna we trust!

It's on Storytel, so you could try it risk free, but it's a very typical YA fantasy trilogy.

Anna wrote: "It's on Storytel, so you could try it risk free, but it's a very typical YA fantasy trilogy."

'very typical YA' doesn't bode well, indeed.

Update for those who care :):

I've read the Wax and Wayne series and though the story wasn't exactly enthralling (with the exception for those parts that hinted at the larger picture of the Cosmere, I'm a complete sucker for those), BUT the characters were terrific and I loved going on the journey at their side. That's what I need in a Fantasy series.

I've also read The Tower of Babel series which was FANTASTIC on all levels. What a firework of grandiose characters and great writing!

Thank you so much to all who recommended it to me.

I have seen Sanderson's videos in YouTube about his books but didn't truly thought to be so great.
I look forward to read them all

I can recommend some older Fantasy series but can't guarantee they'll appeal.

- The Deathgate Cycle by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman
- Thieves World by Robert Aspirin
- The Elric Saga by Michael Moorcock
- The Chronicles of Amber by Roger Zelazny
- Goblin Quest by Jim C. Hines

Gabi wrote: "Thanks a lot, Ian. This may be another prejudice from my side, but so far I haven't read any books from the earlier decades that made me care in any way for the characters. And most of the time the..."

I put my answer to this aside while I figured out how to avoid spoilers and still be persuasive, and forgot about it. But better late than never.

Eddison springs some surprises on the reader, but since he gave away a major point in the early chapters of the first novel to appear, Mistress of Mistresses, I'll just use spoiler hiding so that anyone reading casually won't be informed about it, and you can make your own choice on whether to read them from my description.

(view spoiler)[Strong female characters? Eddison offers a variety of women, from a couple of powerful Queens with very different personalities, to a tragic Princess, to oread and naiad "disciples" of the philosopher/magician Dr. Vandermast, to the lovers of Kings and Dukes, and, early on in the internal chronology, the wives of some of the contending dynasts in the Three Kingdoms.

(But commoners show up mainly as anonymous extras, which I find annoying, but which fits the aristocratic society of the main Zimiamvian kingdoms. Even the terrestrial scenes in A Fish Dinner in Memison are mostly upper-class in milieu, with others seen on the fringes of life. Which I consider a flaw, but not a fatal one, since it is true of so much literature down through the ages.)

However, sooner or later, some of the main characters -- and perhaps by implication everyone, including those missing commoners -- is found to be, to a greater or lesser degree of self-awareness, a divine Avatar.

Early in "Mistress" there is a chapter establishing once and for all that Fiorinda, the sometimes-lover of Duke Barganax, is quite happy with being the Goddess, and in her Zimiamvian form is still capable of manifesting as any woman. (Which may account for the Duke's frustration at not being able to paint her portrait to his own satisfaction.)

C.S. Lewis liked Zimimvia, but very much disliked Fiorinda, and she is indeed objectionable as a human being: but then, we are plainly told that she really isn't one. (hide spoiler)]

I would second Janny Wurts' Mistwraith books, given your preferences. She's also just finished it, so no waiting involved for upcoming books.

I'm never really sure about how epic fantasy is supposed to be defined, so some of my recommendations might not fit that - but they are all good books!

Other recommendations:
- Daughter of the Empire and its 2 sequels, by Janny Wurts and Raymond Feist. This is just a trilogy, though - although it's an offshoot of Feist's connected series, which has several series within it. I think he's still writing them, or might just have finished (he started waaay back). The one of that series of series that I also like is the Riftwar Saga.

- Are you looking just for non-earth settings? One of my favourites is the Taliesin/Arthur series by Stephen Lawhead - but it might not be the type of epic fantasy you're looking for, as it is a re-telling of a very common story. I suggest it because it's original, has lots of depth, multiple viewpoints, is epic in scope, and is just well-told. It's not what you'd expect from this story - he has made it his own.

- Jennifer Fallon has a series of connected series 🙂 which includes the Demon Child series, of which I think the first is Medalon. I've read that one, and am reading one other, set after it, which she hasn't completed. There are, I think, 2 other connected series.

- Valisar, by Fiona McIntosh, might qualify. First book is Royal Exile.

Thank you all for the additional recommendations. I found that Janny Wurts' Empire series is on storytel, so that will be a definite go! (I have no time for eye reading atm, so I'm preferring those series I have audiobook access to)

Some series update:

Since I can't read at the moment I have to go with the series that are available as audiobooks on storytel.

I've read

- Of Blood and Bone by John Gwynne starting with A Time of Dread.

The plus here is definitely that it has a good gender balance (none of the often so typical patriarchal society that is found in Fantasy), but it is a through and through battle/fighting series with a rather straight plot from A to Z and characters who all are heroic in some way. That made it rather boring for me.

- The Demon Cycle by Peter V. Brett starting with The Warded Man. This one had a fantastic start and super interesting world building, but book by book it went down into rape culture, tropic female character writing and one demon fight after the other. The first book I nearly rated 5 stars, the last one only came up to 2 stars. Pity.

- The Rift War Saga by Raymond E. Feist starting with Magician: Apprentice. This one has a nice worldbuilding and is somewhat easy to read. Nothing spectacular and the boys-only cast didn't help me caring for any of the characters. The later books a bit weaker than the first ones.

- The Complete Empire Trilogy: Daughter of the Empire, Mistress of the Empire, Servant of the Empire by Janny Wurts and Raymond E. Feist. This one is set during the same time as the Riftwar saga but on the other side of the rift. I like the interconnectedness of the universe here and the little Aha-moments I get. I'm currently at the end of book 2. Positive here is that it has a heroine, but she is also nearly the only character who gets fleshed out which makes caring for any of the others a bit difficult. Plus I bounce off the writing style which sometimes reads like a cheap romance novel with the over-the-top use of adjectives and descriptions. But alone for the fact that there is a female character with an agenda it is better than the other series' I've read.
More for ASoIaF fans, I would say, because it is one political intrigue after the other.

Gabi, a few other recommendations that I think you might like:

The Bone Shard Daughter and The Bone Shard Emperor, the third book is in the works.

And my personal favorite Twelve Kings in Sharakhai, a beautiful, desert based, multi-POV 5 or 6 book saga. Strong female protagonist, unique magic systems, and fantastic political intrigue and desert battles.

Thank you Rebecca. I hadn't heard of the Twelve Kings in Sharakhai. I will put it on my TBR.
I liked the Bone Shard Daughter on the end, but I've heard from several folks who often have the same taste as I that the second book can't live up to the first one. So I pushed it down on my TBR.

*in* - damn autocorrection

I don’t know if it’s available on Storytel, but I would recommend the Deryni series by Katherine Kurtz. Lots of political intrigue and subtle magic. It’s a long, sort of old series, so audio may not be so readily available.

I’ve heard good things about Katherine Kerr’s Deverry series.

The two series / authors are not at all easy to confuse. LOL

I will look into it, thanks Diane.
Yet I don't like court
intrigue - so if it's mainly that it probably won't click with me (just suffering through a lot of that in the Empire series)

I you enjoy Ghibli movies, I think you would also love Shadow of the Fox by Julie Kagawa. It reminds me a lot of Princess Mononoke, and the main POV character is an adorably mischievous but kind and innocent fox spirit.

Gabi wrote: "Some series update:

- The Complete Empire Trilogy: Daughter of the Empire, Mistress of the Empire, Servant of the Empire by Janny Wurts and Raymond E. Feist..."

You described the Empire trilogy well 😎. It did read like a cheap romance often, which was one thing I didn't love about it, and the political intrigue is one thing after another. I think I really liked the worldbuilding, back when I read it (around 18, maybe?), because it was unique, to me at least. I read this before the other Riftwar books, and liked that being the introduction.

I didn't love Magician so much. It was hyped, but for me didn't live up to it. I preferred the later books. Or maybe what I didn't like was Pug's story - his interested me the least out of all of them, yet it's the one that the author pursued later on, after this original lot of books.

To know about the Katherine Kerr series, it's about re-incarnation - over and over, the same three protagonists hitting and missing. Lots of angst, as you do with a love triangle recurring over millenia/centuries, during times when violent happenings are common, and these 3 are usually in the thick of it.