THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

The December 2021 theme read is any book or books of your choice, which can include novels, that covers Pearl Harbor or any other battle at the start of the Pacific War or the campaign in Papua New Guinea.

I just started reading Walter Lord's Day of Infamy yesterday!

Perfect timing then Theresa! Its a classic account as well so I hope you enjoy it.

“All the Gallant Men” by Donald Stratton and “Countdown to Pearl Harbor” by Steve Twomey

“Countdown to Pearl Harbor” by Steve Twomey may well be my choice for this theme read.

Countdown to Pearl Harbor: The Twelve Days to the Attack by Steve Twomey

I'll weigh in with Given Up for Dead: America's Heroic Stand at Wake Island by Bill Sloan

I highly recommend "Doomed at the Start: American Pursuit Pilots in the Philippines, 1941-1942" by William H. Bartsch, which touches upon the air war aspect of the war in the Philippines that was fought between the Japanese Empire and the U.S. between December 1941 and May 1942.

At last! I have a book that suits the theme.
I will get into this as soon as I have finished my present read.

Japan 1941: Countdown to Infamy

Pearl Harbor: The Seeds and Fruits of Infamy by Percy L Greaves Jr (On YT Audio)

Some good books being mentioned for the theme read!

I started my theme book for December over my morning coffee. So far “Countdown to Pearl Harbor” by Steve Twomey has been very interesting!

Countdown to Pearl Harbor: The Twelve Days to the Attack by Steve Twomey

I'd like to recommend "Samurai!" by Saburo Sakai.



Sakai was a fighter pilot in the Imperial Japanese Navy who saw action in China and in New Guinea as part of the Tainan Wing during the early days of the Pacific War. He emerged from the War with 64 victories to his credit.

KOMET wrote: "I'd like to recommend "Samurai!" by Saburo Sakai.



Sakai was a fighter pilot in the Imperial Japanese Navy who saw action in China and in ..."

Great book, read it back sometime in the 1980's :)

KOMET wrote: "I'd like to recommend "Samurai!" by Saburo Sakai.



Sakai was a fighter pilot in the Imperial Japanese Navy who saw action in China and in ..."

I've mentioned this previously, but when I as a young ensign in the U.S. Navy serving in Japan Sakai was the guest of honor at our command's formal dining-in (a ceremonial mess dinner). I can't recall much of his speech -- it was a Navy dining-in.

That's pretty impressive MR9, it would have been extremely interesting to meet him!

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "That's pretty impressive MR9, it would have been extremely interesting to meet him!"

He received a rousing ovation from the mess. He was a regular guest at U.S. Navy mess dinners in Japan.

Imagining having him signing a copy of his book for you :)

I love sussinctness in exposition (part of the reason I was impressed with the movie Midway), so after a wonky start to Given Up for Dead: America's Heroic Stand at Wake Island its settled down nicely, helped in no small part by this deft analysis of US Pacific imperialism from both sides of the ocean:

The militarists in Tokyo strongly suspected what most private American citizens of the period would never have guessed— that Wake was quietly being groomed for future military use. It was, after all, closer to Tokyo than it was to Honolulu. It was also much nearer to Japan’s home islands than Midway, Johnston, or Palmyra, other links in a defensive chain envisioned by Washington as a protective westward shield for Hawaii. While being a mere three- or four- hour bomber flight from the big Japanese bases at Truk and Kwajalein made Wake a prominent target, it also gave the atoll enormous offensive potential. Wake wasn’t nearly as exposed or vulnerable to attack as Guam, which was in the middle of the Mariana Islands and encircled by Japanese bases— a fact that had already caused U.S. planners to write off Guam as an immediate loss if war came.
To Japan, all these factors made any U.S. attempt to tamper with Wake’s centuries- old status as vacant specks of coral in the middle of nowhere a threat to be reckoned with. Pan Am’s Clippers would be the first planes on Wake, true, but the Navy’s own PBYs would be next, and the Army’s B- 17s wouldn’t be far behind.
In Tokyo’s view, a fortified Wake would be nothing less than a dagger aimed at the very heart of its empire— and thus a target of the highest priority. News of the deal between the U.S. Navy and Pan Am prompted Japanese naval strategists to revise their war plans. Wake would now have to be seized within the first few days of conflict.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I started my theme book for December over my morning coffee. So far “Countdown to Pearl Harbor” by Steve Twomey has been very interesting!

[bookcover:Countdown to Pearl Harbor: The Twelve Days to ..."

I might try this one, too, Rick. It's at my local library.

I highly recommend "A Matter of Honor: Pearl Harbor: Betrayal, Blame, and a Family's Quest for Justice" by Anthony Summers.



Summers does a masterful job of explaining many of the factors that led to the success of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941.

Very interesting post Jonny about Wake. In my book the author reckoned that the commander of the US Pacific Fleet, Kimmel, questioned the use of Wake, the efforts to keep it supplied, etc, when it was so close to Japan, but he did see that he could use it as a lure to trap the Japanese fleet into a naval engagement on American terms.

So it would seem, Rick:

an increasingly nervous Navy hierarchy was doing all it could to speed up the actual fortification of Wake. On April 18, 1941, Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, commander in chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet, expressed his fear that defensive efforts had started too late.
It seems ironic that Kimmel, who would be blamed for the Navy’s lack of preparedness in the disaster of December 7 and forced to resign afterward, should sound such a strident warning more than seven months before the Japanese attack.
“The strategic importance of Wake is increasingly evident, as one inquires into the means by which the Pacific Fleet may carry on offensive operations to the westward,” Kimmel wrote in a letter to Admiral Harold R. Stark, chief of naval operations. “If Wake be defended, then for the Japanese to reduce it would require extended operations of their naval forces in an area where we might be able to get at them.... We should try, by every possible means, to get the Japanese to expose naval units. In order to do this, we must provide objectives that require such exposure.”

Given Up for Dead: America's Heroic Stand at Wake Island

I'm planning on reading slightly related novel, James Jones' From Here to Eternity. I've watched the movie like 10 years ago, but can't really remember much about it. Kind of winding down my this years history books and will most likely read just fiction for the rest of the year and this one is a perfect bridge between those two.

“Countdown to Pearl Harbor” - Kimmel's predecessor in the Pacific command, James Richardson:

"Summoned to the capital, the admiral sat down with the president on October 8, 1940, and promptly removed any doubt about how long he ought to serve. “Mr. President,” he said, “I feel that I must tell you that the senior officers of the Navy do not have the trust and confidence in the civilian leadership of this country that is essential for the successful prosecution of a war in the Pacific.” Richardson was not unburdening himself spontaneously. He had planned exactly what he would say. “I thought that the President could be shocked into either changing his policies, or providing adequate implementation of them,” he said, by beefing up the fleet, especially by bringing ship companies up to full complement. In Richardson’s view, a misguided civilian needed a healthy face slap of reality from a career officer. “I can state with complete accuracy that when the President heard my statement, he looked and acted completely crushed.” Well, of course he did. The navy, the object of Roosevelt’s lifelong affection, had just spurned his love. After he was fired a few months later, Richardson told Knox, “I have never known a commander in chief to be detached in such a summary manner as I have been, and I feel that I owe it to myself to inquire as to the reason for my preemptory detachment.” Knox must have been amused at the presumption of innocence. “Why Richardson,” he replied, “when you were in Washington last October, you hurt the President’s feelings by what you said to him.” At least the admiral would savor a morsel of grim satisfaction. Ten months after the change of command, listening to the radio at home on a Sunday afternoon in Washington and as shocked as every American, Richardson would realize that being removed in a humiliating ceremony aboard the Pennsylvania in February was not as bad as commanding the fleet in December."

“Countdown to Pearl Harbor” - Some issues that Admiral Kimmel had to deal with upon taking command of the Pacific Fleet:

"Washington kept tapping the Pacific Fleet to help flesh out crews for the burgeoning Atlantic Fleet, and to train recruits ashore. 'At an alarming rate,' Kimmel said, he lost experienced ordnance experts, flight instructors, executive officers, even ship captains. The newest battleship captain in February, out of twelve, had risen to fourth in seniority by May. In place of the departing droves, Kimmel was given raw recruits and reserve officers, all of whom had to be trained. 'There were times when 70 percent of the men on board individual ships had never heard a gun fired,' Kimmel said, never had been given target practice. On some of the fleet's combat ships that summer, a quarter of the crew had less than a year's service. On other's, the number approached 50 percent. Some auxiliary ships were nearly 100 percent green. On April 22, Kimmel wrote Stark, saying, 'We cannot produce a satisfactory state of battle efficiency unless we have some degree of permanency in [the] nucleus of personnel. We must have on board a certain number of officers and men who know the ship.' He made little headway. He estimated on November 15 that he needed nine thousand men just to fill out rosters."

Countdown to Pearl Harbor: The Twelve Days to the Attack by Steve Twomey

“Countdown to Pearl Harbor” :

"Husband Kimmel found himself in the wrong ocean. His theater of operations officially did not count, at least not as much. While Isoroku Yamamoto feared that the Pacific Fleet was too powerful to leave untouched during Japan’s campaign to subdue the southwest Pacific, Kimmel looked out his office window each day and saw only a fleet far less magnificent than the one he had taken command of."

“Countdown to Pearl Harbor” - A good story about the Japanese Admiral, Isoroku Yamamoto:

"Isoroku Yamamoto stood only three inches more than five feet tall and weighed 130 pounds, maybe. Geishas who did his fingernails called him “Eighty Sen” because the regular rate was ten sen a finger and he had only eight, having given the left middle and index to vanquish the Russians in the war of 1904–5."

Isoroku Yamamoto:
https://www.asianstudies.org/publicat...

I have read the Prologue to Eri Hotta's Japan 1941 this morning, and it has been a fine read so far. The author has given her opinion as to why Japan made its right from the start very foolish attack on the US at Pearl Harbour and that it was nothing but a gamble of the highest order. The powers that be knew they were not going to win in the long term.

In this prologue, she covers the public's joy at the attack with a few quotes. She also covers the broad makeup of the government and with that its inability to discuss openly anything that, to put it simplistically, would cause the loss of face to individuals due to the very ingrained cultural make up of the Japanese people.

Some leaders were both pro and anti-war. As an example Admiral Yamamoto was privately anti war but it was his plans that were used for the attack on Pearl harbour.

That's a book that I have been considering getting a copy of 4ZZ, so I will be interested to hear your final thoughts on it once you have finished.

Japan 1941: Countdown to Infamy by Eri Hotta

“Countdown to Pearl Harbor” - The build up towards war with America as seen by the Japanese:

"By now, Tokyo saw itself not as an aggressor whose actions had provoked responses, but as a victim. Attacking China had been a mistake, Japan agreed, but America was making it difficult to get out. It was fortifying Chinese armies, and refusing to understand how Japan could not instantly withdraw all of its forces there without losing honor. It would take a great deal of time. And if, in addition, the Americans kept being difficult and refusing to resume oil shipments, well, there was oil in the southwest Pacific to be seized. In other words, having lost oil by seizing the lands of others, Japan was threatening to get oil by seizing still more places."

“Countdown to Pearl Harbor” - The US naval commander in the Philippines on the countdown to war with Japan:

"Tommy Hart’s Asiatic Fleet had no battleships or aircraft carriers with which to confront the Japanese, just two cruisers, a baker’s dozen of destroyers, and a flotilla of submarines, a fleet largely sired in the Great War. “When asked about it,” Hart said, “I used to say that all of my ships were old enough to vote.”"

Countdown to Pearl Harbor: The Twelve Days to the Attack by Steve Twomey

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "That's a book that I have been considering getting a copy of 4ZZ, so I will be interested to hear your final thoughts on it once you have finished.

[bookcover:Japan 1941: Countdown to Infamy|17345..."

Very readable so far.

A little from the first chapter......

Chapter 1 Rumour of War.
The war in China is taking an economic tole on Japan. The US has acted towards making economic sanctions based on the invasion of French SE Asia though the Japanese see this as a block on supply to the Chinese nationalists. Japan then signs the Tripartite Pact with them seeing it as an opportunity to improve its bargaining position with the US. The signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact also caused some consternation with the PM Kiiriro resigning and saying that “The European state of affairs is too complicated and bizarre” The German military ties were later strengthened though only after the Navy agreed if it got a larger budget. I had read previously that the arms of the Japanese military were very competitive. There was now early 1941 and rumours of military action circulated among Japanese diplomats and they began to bring families member back home from it’s embassy in the US. Relations with Britain were now strained after the takeover of Indochina and with that the British opened up previously closed supply routes through to China.

At this point the sanctions are biting badly as there is not much on the shelves for the population. Fuel is a big issue and many in government and the military as they know that 93% of all oil is supplied by the US. In January 1941 send a diplomat to Jakarta to negotiate with the Dutch over oil supplies. At this point I personally think that if they had been less concerned with “losing face” they should have got out of China. The author writes shortly after that all knew that China was the “root cause”. Prince Konoe Fumimaro comes in for some severe criticism by the author who calls him self-serving and contradictory.

I finished Walter Lord's Day of Infamy last night.

It is easy to understand why this book is considered a classic. This is a very well written account of the day of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Walter Lord weaves together 577 first hand accounts, mostly American military, but also some Japanese military and civilians living in Hawaii at the time of the attack, into a gripping narrative. This book is light on the planning and strategy involved leading up to the attack, which is clear in the title - Day of Infamy. There are other great books that cover the important planning and strategy aspects of the attack, Gordon W. Prange's At Dawn We Slept to name just one. Walter Lord's book is essential reading for anyone wanting to learn more about the direct experiences and perspectives of U.S. military personnel (Navy, Marine Corps, and Army) as well as civilians present during the attack on Pearl Harbor. I highly recommend this book!

Now on to Ian W. Toll's Pacific Crucible.

Sounds good Theresa. I've run through the first day of combat at Wake; it's been a bit of a turnaround, sinking two Japanese ships and routing the initial naval strike on the island:

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news...

Given Up for Dead: America's Heroic Stand at Wake Island

Theresa wrote: "I finished Walter Lord's Day of Infamy last night.

It is easy to understand why this book is considered a classic. This is a very well written account of the day of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Wal..."

Really glad to hear your enjoyed the book, I hope you also enjoy Ian W. Toll's Pacific Crucible just as much, keep us all posted.

Jonny wrote: "Sounds good Theresa. I've run through the first day of combat at Wake; it's been a bit of a turnaround, sinking two Japanese ships and routing the initial naval strike on the island:

https://www...."

Pretty impressive effort!

Great article Jonny. Thanks for sharing. Impressive and hard core marines to be credited with one of the first and maybe only accounts of sinking an enemy ship from a shore battery (per the Marine Corps History Division).

“Countdown to Pearl Harbor” - A few good reasons why the Japanese could never attack Pearl Harbor:

"It was a 'fact,' written everywhere, heard constantly, that the Japanese, due to unfortunate physiology, were terrible at the controls of airplanes, the weapon that was coming of age in the new world war. Their airplanes were terrible, too, poor knockoffs of Western designs produced by a people incapable of innovation. The author Fletcher Pratt, whose subjects included naval history, had informed the American people in 1939 that 'the Japanese, as a race, have defects of the tube of the inner ear, just as they generally are myopic,' and this gives them 'a defective sense of balance' as pilots. Pratt added that as children, the Japanese had 'fewer mechanical toys' than Americans, which left them 'less mechanical' as adults than 'any other race.' An incredulous Arthur McCollum would hear people argue that Japanese pilots were no good because—as he paraphrased the argument—as babies 'they’re carried on the backs of their mothers or their older sisters, and their older sisters play hop-scotch, and when they play hop-scotch, the child’s head bounces around and it destroys the balance in the inner ear.'"

Countdown to Pearl Harbor: The Twelve Days to the Attack by Steve Twomey

“Countdown to Pearl Harbor” - Some more wishful thinking in regards to the Japanese as a threat:

"If hard data suggested a Japanese plane or weapon had excellent capability, the data were suspect. By inspecting the wreckage of a new type of Japanese fighter shot down in China, Naval Intelligence realized that the plane—the Zero—had a range of at least 1,500 miles if equipped with an auxiliary fuel tank. 'We pushed this out, and the Bureau of Aeronautics just hit the ceiling,' McCollum said. The Zero could not fly that far, the bureau countered, based on nothing. Likewise, using an 'impeccable' source, McCollum told the Bureau of Ordnance that the Japanese had a torpedo that was faster and more potent than American ones. The bureau replied that this could not be true."

Japanese A6M Zero:
http://www.aviation-history.com/mitsu...

“Countdown to Pearl Harbor” - One more story from the book about the perceived lack of Japanese capabilities:

"So common was race-based dismissal of the empire’s abilities that in a few days, after Japan’s warplanes had materialized in Hawaiian skies, the New York Herald Tribune, quoting a British general, would report that German tutors had definitely helped with the planning of the attack, and possibly had trained the pilots. There had to have been white help, in other words. Within the halls of Congress, the rumor was that Germans had actually done the flying."

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "“Countdown to Pearl Harbor” - A few good reasons why the Japanese could never attack Pearl Harbor:

"It was a 'fact,' written everywhere, heard constantly, that the Japanese, due to unfortunate phy..."

A mention of Fletcher Pratt is a flash from the past. One of the first grown-up books I read was his --

Civil War In Pictures

I actually remember my 2nd grade teacher (1944-45) saying that the Japanese were very good at copying the ideas of others but lacked originality on their own. This same lady was also flummoxed to answer another classmate’s question to what we would do once the world’s supply of oil ran out. A question which I myself had never questioned, especially as my father ran a gas (petro) station. It came out of the pumps, of course.

This may be a silly question, but I've read about occurrences and ships located at "Ten-Ten Dock" in Pearl Harbor. My books have some great maps, so this is not a question of location or geography, but of what this name means or how it was derived?

I highly recommend "Touched with Fire: The Land War in the South Pacific" by Eric M. Bergerud.



This book touches upon the nature of the fighting that took place on many of the Japanese-held islands in the South Pacific during the War -- including the battle Australian forces fought against the Japanese along the Kokoda Trail in New Guinea during 1942.
This battle, which took place concurrently with the ongoing struggles between the Japanese and Americans for control of Guadalcanal, showed that the Imperial Japanese Army could be beaten.

Theresa wrote: "This may be a silly question, but I've read about occurrences and ships located at "Ten-Ten Dock" in Pearl Harbor. My books have some great maps, so this is not a question of location or geography,..."

My book mentions it and the author states it got its name for his length - 1,010 feet.

https://www.usshelena.org/kleppspearl...

KOMET wrote: "I highly recommend "Touched with Fire: The Land War in the South Pacific" by Eric M. Bergerud.


..."

Totally agree Komet - its a great book!

Theresa wrote: "This may be a silly question, but I've read about occurrences and ships located at "Ten-Ten Dock" in Pearl Harbor. My books have some great maps, so this is not a question of location or geography,..."

1010 Dock is a pierside mooring location in Pearl Harbor.

Chapter 2, The Return of Don Quixote.

The author compares Matsuoka Yosuke, Japans foreign minister who was part of the pro axis diplomatic corps, to Don Quixote as a megalomaniac. I am not sure that that is an apt analogy, as I read Don Quixote and considered him mad. Maybe other readers think different.

So far there have been a couple of analogy / metaphors that seem superfluous to me. After 2 chapters I am not sure that I would have a book called 1941, based on that specific year, as it keeps delving back into the past. Ok that is only after 2 chapters I hear some say, and we need some historical context. Fair enough I suppose, but why not have this in chronological order then? I have just finished this chapter and it ends at page 76. Considering my copy has 293 pages of text proper and is jumping in and out of the timeline this early, it is a little too distracting. There is a long way to go, so it may get back on track from the next chapter.

For all my humming and hawing though, it is interesting.

I hope it gets better, but glad to hear you are still finding it interesting. Like you, I prefer my historical context in a chronological order, I hate going back and forwards in time in a book.