Play Book Tag discussion

It's almost impossible to review this book without giving a thing away. I do feel like the one thing that might be interesting to talk about, is whether a book idea can be truly stolen. When the publishers were met with the question, it was clear to them. An idea can not be stolen. And just because one has an idea, doesn't mean they can write it, or get it published. Many themes and tropes are used all the time, and many ideas blend into one another. In her book Big Magic, Elizabeth Gilbert tells the story of having had a particular idea. She had some of it flushed out. She went to lunch with a novelist friend, and they never once spoke of it. Not even a word or reference to it. She got busy and distracted with other projects and never got the book written, despite it having been flushed out. One year later, the novelist friend published her well known novel. It was the same exact idea, flushed out in the same exact way, in the exact setting and plot. Coincidence? I remember a few years ago, where there were three Mata Hari books out at once. Someone in my main group (CW I believe) suggested that it was because the 75th anniversary. Perhaps, but that was indeed strange. I have also noticed more than once that a flush of books emerge on a particular topic that isn't even current or prominent, but rather obscure - I ask again, can an idea or plot be truly stolen?

Now of course in the book, the Plot, there is more to it than that. For one, our central character feels an immense guilt that is hard to understand, but that drives the story plot. The question becomes deeper, what if the plot were based on a real story? Whether you know it or not, is any plot that has a remote resemblance, stealing? Or are our stories so similar enough that it wouldn't have mattered. To whom might it truly matter? We get our imagination from our own lives, so is it stealing if it is adequately disguised? If it mirrors too close to the truth, even without knowing, is there a blame aspect required? Now the book is a fun thriller, but what does it say about writers and writing, and whose story is it to tell?

An interesting phenomena happened while reading the book. And the book within the book, which promised a twist that no one saw coming. I wanted to comment on reviewers and twists. We seem many of us to get abject pleasure in "having seen the twist a mile away" or having been blown away by "I didn't see that coming." People in their reviews seem to love to announce that they predicted the twist. Why is this I ask? And yet I had that thought with this book. I felt I knew exactly what was coming, and often I don't quite..... But the need to announce that to everyone? That I knew it early? (If indeed I did....) Well who does that serve? Why as a book reading culture are we caught up in announcing whether or not we saw it in advance? Even I found the desire to do so, and caught myself and say, "well who cares, and what on earth is that about?" I don't think we should be congratulated personally, for outsmarting the author. It's about the joy in reading the tale. And enjoying the twists, whether you are right or you aren't.

The book was fun, and layered. And worth a read. Four stars from me!

I agree - the book was fun. And I understood his guilt, although I have never stolen a book or story idea from anyone. I have enough ideas on my own. But I never felt the need that the author felt to write a "prize-winning" book. The ending was a surprise to me - I did not see it coming, in fact, I was waiting for the message sender to be disclosed. It is a good book, a mystery. and fun to read.
And I agree that the competition to "know - see" the culprit is a waste of time for me. I just want to read the book and keep the characters alive in my review. Good review, Amy, and superb action in not disclosing any secrets. peace, janz

I am only part of the way through this book, but really enjoying it so far.

Amy, I agree with most of what you wrote above. Is it plagiarism if you steal a plot idea? I think that is very different than actually copying the words. (view spoiler)[On the flip side though, I do relate to the author's guilty feelings . . .it does somehow seem wrong to capitalize on someone's idea that they shared directly with you in a teacher/pupil relationship. (hide spoiler)] However, I think that was mitigated by the status of the pupil when the idea was used.

In my many years of higher ed, we defined plagiarism as copying exact words (there is some number 5, 10 - I do not remember) and not attributing them to the actual author, i.e. presenting them as your own. In higher ed and I think in publishing, we take words and publishing very seriously. He did not steal words, he stole an idea. That is a mess and a I think it gets down to copyright. If I publish it and designate it as mine, that stands for a copyright. So, he never stole written words - but I still think he was unethical. People have taken my ideas before and all I can do it yell at them and decide never to trust them again. But I am not an attorney. If I die are my ideas not still valid? That is what makes this book so interesting. peace, janz

I remember once, and this is a really weird thing to say, I have an ethical thing with a patient of mine. I was seeing a couple for many years, and had worked a lot extensively with the man over much of it. And I had referred the step daughter to another clinician. And because I thought I was being helpful to family, I gave the clinician a paper I had written on the couple and their dynamics. Because I knew it was essential. So when the couple met with the clinician, she immediately knew a lot and kind of got there quickly, because of everything I had shared. Anyway, long story longer, she ended up abandoning the daughter, connecting with this man using everything I had shared with her, which I thought was kind of like a weird seduction, and then used him as a control patient for her analyst degree. I lost the couple completely. She took the whole thing over, never once consulting me about it. The daughter lost the therapist. And it was my words in my ideas that allowed her to do it. For so many reasons this just did not sit right. Crazily enough, the couple and the man just came back into my practice this month, six years later. I did manage to let it go about the referral gone wrong. But something about my word and the writing being used for that level of inappropriate seduction really upset

Amy wrote: "I remember once, and this is a really weird thing to say, I have an ethical thing with a patient of mine. I was seeing a couple for many years, and had worked a lot extensively with the man over mu..."

Amy, you have a novel to write!

Wow, Amy. That is a fascinating story. The professional ethics of the other therapist sounds extremely suspect and self serving. I would have been furious . . .

I have to say that I have met many people with a low bar when it comes to right vs. wrong. It's hard for me to wrap my mind around how people justify these things in their own mind. But I do believe in the economic theory of welfare maximization and how that can drive so many decisions . . .so I guess that's what it comes down to in the end for some people.

Sarah, if I stole someone's story, given my role, I would be in big trouble - lol. But I do a lot of clinical storytelling on in the papers I write for presentations and teaching. They are totally disguised and are great stories, but for a quite tiny and select audience. That said, other than book reviews, I do when I have the time, write a lot of essays. My father would like me to someday compile them into some kind of book. I do consider myself a writer. And here's a funny thing. I think I would be a much better non-fiction writer, than I would fiction. I'm really close to non-fiction in my writing style and way of thinking. That said. I really don't like to read non-fiction myself. As a reader, I far prefer contemporary fiction and historical fiction and getting lost in a story. But is there a book in me? You betcha, and more than one! I really appreciate your noticing, thank you.

Amy wrote: "Sarah, if I stole someone's story, given my role, I would be in big trouble - lol. But I do a lot of clinical storytelling on in the papers I write for presentations and teaching. They are totally ..."

Your story could easily be fiction and a thriller, as the evil seducer is so popular right now.

Thank you, Anita. I have an even wierder story around that experience to share, which will go easier since I am now on my laptop and not my phone. This one may feel like it enters in the realm of fantasy, but its all true.

When the woman stole the patient from me, seducing him about how much she deeply got and understood him, using the information from the years of work I had done with him, that was meant to help her work with the stepdaughter, I felt violated. But also so awful for him and them and the family. But it also pulled a lot of things to light for me about this other colleague. It was a lesson learned in many ways and forms. At the time, I came to realize that I had given her many successful referrals, but she had never given me a single one. I felt angry with her, but I also felt her desperation and wondered how she put it all together for herself, around morality and what she needed to do. I felt like I "got" her as well. I was angry about it for a half a year and wondered what I would do if I ran into her. I had a few conversations with her in my head, but nothing felt resolved.

True story though, of how I let it go. And its completely gone. One night about a year after, I had a dream. If you believe in such things, it was a flying dream, and she and I were flying around. For those of us who ascribe to such things (from the girl who doesn't care for fantasy), it usually means that you are having a soul to soul experience with someone. Where at the same time, both souls have left the body during deep sleep and are able to fly around and communicate with one another. Well, this happened with her - the former friend/colleague. And in a weird wordless way, she did apologize to the best of her ability. Clearly it wasn't thought out, and she was not quite comfortable with her own morality, but she basically spoke what I had already gathered. That her need and desperation was greater than her sense of what to do, and that she was driven by the impulse to meet her own need and not think farther than that. She needed an analytic patient to complete her degree, and when she met this family, she saw an opportunity and dove. In the dream experience, she told me, that it was really not about what was right for the family, or me, but that she was just doing her best. (I always hate that phrase, truly). But she gave all that she could to the situation and that was where she landed. Even in the dream it wasn't sufficient, just like it never was in my mental conversations. But something about having that soul/dream interaction, truly allowed me to have compassion and let her and the whole situation go. I ran into her maybe a year, half a year after the dream experience. Maybe two years later. There had been a prior interaction where she was all bubbly and chatting about 8th grade baseball, and sort of artificially huggy and over talking. I am never cold to people, so the best I could muster at the time was lukewarm, and when she suggested we get together sometime, I sort of hesitated and then said, Maybe sometime we should talk.... With the emphasis on should. Never heard from her again, naturally. But this time I ran into her after the dream interaction, she was calmer, and more grounded. She got open and honest with me about her divorce and how hard things have been. Illnesses with the kids, and good things too. But it was a real authentic connection. I felt so strongly, that the dream interaction really had made a difference for both of us. We never needed to talk about it, because we "already did." We had come to an understanding of it, and it was past. Have never seen her again, although we live in the same city, practice in the same profession, and run in very similar circles. I sort of thought I would see her at our kids' high school graduation, but that never happened. But for me its freed up and over. Its just so interesting that now all of a sudden, the couple is back, and something about this book and this conversation, led me to think about how my storytelling of someone led to someone appropriating the story. Betcha I run into her again. Anita and Sarah, I will let you know if I do. A little eerie for you on a Saturday morning?

The weird thing for me about The Plot is that right around when I was reading it, I heard of a real life example. There was an essay online about the "Cat Person" story that had been a viral sensation a few years before in the New Yorker. It was a story about a date gone wrong, and there was a lot of discussion at the time about whether it was assault or just a normal not-very-good date. In this new essay, a woman wrote that this was her real experience, and there were a lot of details, like where the character was from, went to college, what field she was in, etc. and about what went on that night, that actually happened to her. She figured out that her "bad date" must have told the writer all about the incident, and I think she even confirmed that. Unfortunately, the writer took it on wholesale without changing details. It probably wouldn't have mattered for most New Yorker stories, since they have a limited audience. But this one got so much attention, and it was really distressing for the subject, even if other people didn't realize who she was. I don't remember if the writer of the story ever responded or apologized.

As far as twists, I rarely try to figure them out and I'm disappointed when I do.

I had been in the department for years - we hired a new person to teach some of the courses I taught. She had not finished her doctorate at that time (ABD). She was very new, very raw, very immature. She came to me and wanted to know what I did in the class - I was only thinking to help her so I gave her my entire syllabus, schedule, rules for class and written assignments, etc. Now, these rules, assignments, etc. had been created over years of teaching the course. I thought I was helping her. The next day, the department secretary came to me with the new woman's syllabus, rules, class assignments, etc. that she had been asked to send in for copies. It was MY VERY WORDS except she had changed my name at the top to hers. I lost it. I regarded it as stealing, just as if she had stolen my car or my purse. I did not even go to the department chair or the chair of the search committee (who recommended that we hire her). I went straight to her office and yelled, talked of theft, explained that she did not have a clue what some of those assignments were or how I wanted a case analysis written up, etc. I was angry, she was tearful, sorry that she did not know that taking my exact words was stealing. And she was close to getting a Ph.D. from a major university. What do they teach there? Then I went to the department chair with my materials and with hers (which I insisted the secretary give to me) - I was furious, he understood. I never saw her again. A temporary person (whom we had used before) took over the classes. So sometimes, it pays to be honest and sometimes you get caught - just like the mother in Michigan who warned her killer son not to get caught. Guess what major university was about ready to give her a degree. Is it the water? sorry for my anger here at the end of this essay. This happened 40 years ago and I still get angry thinking about someone stealing from me. peace, janz

Oops --- sorry that I did not write this above. I read The Plot (won in a GR giveaway) months ago and I was not so mad then. When I relate it to me now and think about the theft of my words, I should have written more disgust for the author who stole the story. But he is dead. peace, janz

Something similar happened to me. Like 20 years ago. I taught a four hour course. I don’t know if it was at the beginning or the end, but one woman wanted to double check the bibliography was there. And then outright announced to me that she needed it to teach the exact same course I had uniquely created, and that was why she signed up. She basically told me outright she came to steal the course! Who does that? And the course? It was on Disclosure. Called Disclosure, hiddenness, and Intimacy. When disclosure is useful and when it’s harmful. She basically showed up, stole my bibliography and presentation, then disclosed her diabolical motives. Well, I never saw her teach it anywhere, but I was appalled at the gall!

Wow, this thread is so interesting. And upsetting. I really can't believe the intellectual theft. So, so infuriating.

And according to news reports, China does it regularly - copies our books, our codes, our blueprints, etc. Back in the 70s when I was in Korea in the Peace Corps, at a certain market in Seoul, one could buy name brand clothes - I assume stolen from the factories which were supposed to send them to the US distributors. I remember buying clothes there for myself and for my parents. Now, I am sorry that I purchased from the markets. Stealing is stealing. peace, janz

In my local book club we read The Giver of Stars and The Book Woman of Troublesome Creek, both about WPA pack horse librarians during the depression. There was a plagiarism case because of the similarities, but I didn't think it was plagiarism at all. It turned out that both authors were inspired by the same source material - an article/report from the Smithsonian (I think) about the WPA programs.

Kind of like what I was saying earlier about Elizabeth Gilbert and Mata Hari. Sometimes its in the air..... I did not come down harshly on the main character in the least in this book. I felt his guilt was immense for the nature of the crime, but it made for a great story!

Amy wrote: "Something similar happened to me. Like 20 years ago. I taught a four hour course. I don’t know if it was at the beginning or the end, but one woman wanted to double check the bibliography was there..."

Amy that's an everyday occurrence in training and education. We're constantly sharing information with one another. As long as she's not publishing your written materials as her own, it's not plagiarism. No one will be able to teach the course exactly as you do, but I know how it feels.

I once bid on a project with a big bank, and for my proposal I created a detailed outline with a unique approach to the topic (customized for them). They ended up using my outline and ideas to develop their own course. I didn't find out until a year later, when they hired me to do another project. At least I got paid for the second project. I learned my lesson, and the next time I developed a customized program I made sure that I got paid for that part of the work.

I used to teach full day seminars for Cornell, and there were always some participants who were taking the course so that they could teach the material to people in their companies or to client companies. Some were direct competitors. The classes were expensive so I felt that they were entitled to use the information as they needed. I sometimes included "train-the-trainer" notes with additional references, training activities, or tips for how to apply the material to different types of people/settings.

Years ago I created a unusual handout for a certification class that turned out to be very popular. One day a student brought in something that they thought I would like. It was used in training classes in their company. It was a copy of my own handout, with my name, copyright, and contact information removed. I don't mind if they use my handout as long as my name stays on it. Copyright violations are a common problem in teaching and training. As Peacejanz mentioned, the standards for academic publishing are very strict. But for years many professors routinely shared copyright protected material with their students.

I did a free seminar for a professional organization on a hot new topic, and I was just a tiny bit dismayed to see more direct competitors in the audience, than potential clients. I was a member (and later president) of that group, and I learned a lot from all the other members too. Sharing was a driving value of the group, it was part of our culture. (Organization Development professionals are big on walking the talk.)

Amy, that was an interesting story about your client. It sounds like you all have to be extra vigilant to protect your clients from the other aspects of your work (publishing, research, visibility in the community, getting new clients, etc.). I love your example of how you found a way to get over it. It really shows how healing it can be to forgive someone.

Did the parents know that you shared information with their daughter's therapist? Did you ever tell them? It's interesting that you used the term seduction. At first I thought you meant that she seduced him and they had an affair. You gave me an aha moment. I was once with a client at an event, and a competitor "hit on her" right in front of me. Now I realize why I felt so offended.

These are all great questions and great thoughts. I think I did say that I was going to collaborate with the other therapist and paint a picture that would be helpful. I think what they didn’t know is that I already had written for another presentation a very in-depth and beautifully written much deeper portrait. So it would have been very easy for a reader to pull things together and pull things out of it that would have made this man feel like only she had the wisdom to get things that were so deep. I can absolutely see how it happened. But no they didn’t know I had written a paper on them. I was taking an intense couples class at the time. In any case, the book itself, also raises some interesting questions. I found that situation very easy on my heart. Just fascinating about the potential ramifications.

Very interesting discussion. If you give your words to someone else verbally, they can use them without attribution. If you take their written words and pass them off as yours - shame on you. You are a thief. This is a continuing problem and we all need to be alert to it. Or if you want the information to be a gift, tell them it is theirs and they can copy it- use it any way.
The basic topic is honesty. Recent surveys (this is plural - there have been several in the last decade) show that about 95 percent of college students cheat on exams or assigned papers - or know of someone who has cheated (and have not reported them). I was once in the ladies room in the business school at my university and I heard two young women planning how to cheat on an exam. And it was due to the lax attitude of the prof. I recently read an article (can't remember where) with a major point that we have eroded trust in our society. We do not trust the people we elect, we do not trust the law enforcement folks, we do not trust the courts. And I agreed.
Sorry - I am mixing up honesty, stealing the property of others, cheating, not trusting. Where are we going in this society? peace, janz