Read Women discussion

This is our discussion thread for our January nonfiction read, We Should All Be Feminists by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie.

In December 2012, Adichie delivered a TEDx talk. Since then, it's been transcribed into 28 languages and the video at the TED website has garnered 4,853,350 views.

https://www.ted.com/talks/chimamanda_...

Our selection this month is the 68-page essay adapted from the TEDx talk. Michaela will lead our discussion.

I am such a fan of this book. Let us know if you plan to participate.

I just picked up We Should All Be Feminists from the library today. I am prioritizing it as the next book I read. So I will be participating.

This was my final read of 2021. I think that a reader who hasn't read anything about feminism or thought about the topic would benefit more from the book than I did. I would be interested in reading more about the Igbo from Adichie's perspective though.

I agree with Shomeret that it's good for those new to feminism. I had read this last January. Here's my review - https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

I listened to this last night. It’s a shamefully quick read. Highly quotable. She hits on many feminist topics in the short essay, which is probably what lends to its appeal - the combination of accessibility and relatability.

In the very beginning, her comments about having to define herself as a feminist since all around her people have already decided - and are eager to educate her on - what a feminist is, truly resonated with me. She says something along the lines of how she defined herself at one time as an African feminist who sometimes wears lipstick and does not hate men (I’ll have to find and share the actual quote) because everyone kept telling her what feminists are and what they are not.

In my own personal experience, I had never before fought or discussed what feminism is or isn’t with certain people in my life until the words “I’m a feminist” actually came out of my mouth. Sure, we had discussed many feminist topics and I had most undoubtedly argued feminist pov’s before, but until the actual declaration, I had never argued what a feminist - and henceforth what I, myself - was or wasn’t. I bore the brunt of imaginary arguments that took place completely without me. I suddenly became a completely different person to people I’ve known my entire life. It was surreal, and extremely frustrating.

That’s a whole lot of unpacking from pretty much her opening statement.

I understand the viewpoint that there's not much "new" here for someone reading about and living feminism for some time, but I recall having a sense that my points in favor of owning the label had become a bit stale - likely because those points seemed a bit old hat to me at the time. Adichie takes them on in a way that strikes me as fresh, even if it feels like Feminism 101. @Anita, the African feminist line is one of my favorites. Allowing ourselves to be defined by the negative stereotypes of others is supremely unsatisfying.

I read this a couple of years ago. I agree that it's pretty basic, but it's a good intro for someone who doesn't know much about feminism.

I liked that Adichie’s voice is not shrill or confrontational. She is engaging, non-threatening, and inclusive. She doesn't point fingers or assign blame but uses wit coupled with the eye of a keen observer to illuminate the ways and frequency in which women are marginalized.

I wrote a review of it at the time time: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

"At some point, I was a Happy African Feminist Who Doesn't Hate Men and Who Likes to Wear Lip Gloss and High Heels for Herself and Not for Men."

I also read this a couple of years ago and, like many others commenting here, I thought it was a great read for someone who had not previously done a lot of reading on feminism. As always though, I think it is the voice of Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie and the way she expresses her thoughts that make this enjoyable even when you have done more extensive reading.

I just read this at the start of December, and apart from of course feeling that it is dated I really do think it is great for people new to feminism. Since it was optimised for a talk and subsequently an essay, there is so much to unpack with each passage - to explore the reasons for each of the events she describes, the actual depth and implications of the few symbolic situations.
I believe that the very reasons it is such a good starter are also the same reasons it's dated and good only for beginners. There are sections where she argues why feminism is necessary or why women are no less than men in today's world, which for someone who is already a feminist sound extremely convincing - I mean we are already convinced. But for informing people with deep-rooted sexism, the arguments fall severely short. Also because it relies on experiences from a somewhat well-off class of women, I think it does not fully drive home the point of why the world needs feminism. Being forced to stick to the stereotypes, having to live with education, work, religious, political and societal systems that were not built with women in mind, the low self-esteem, the compulsion to be the pacifist and avoid conflicts, the time-wasting pressure to always look good and dress a certain way, the way single/divorced women are treated by the wives of their colleagues, being new generations of women in voting ..... there are many common and bigger issues that have been around for ages. My country still does not allow parents to know the gender of their babies before birth because of the high rates of female infanticide until only a few years ago. Not to even begin talking about gender identities and being trans. There are so so so many examples that could very well have gone into a beginner book and that can help make the same arguments as solid as they can be.
This is of course subjective, very much my opinion, but yeah.

I just read it as I saw this suggested in this group.

As a 30 year old woman, I didn't take too much new information about feminism, just emphasised it even more; I'm again reminded of the great progress that was made and how much it still remains.

I was struck by this quote, as I always thought as a girl and as a woman to be likeable, and not bother anyone,

"What struck me – with her and with many other female American friends I have – is how invested they are in being ‘liked’. How they have been raised to believe that their being likeable is very important and that this ‘likeable’ trait is a specific thing. And that specific thing does not include showing anger or being aggressive or disagreeing too loudly."

For my other saved quotes, check here.

Thanks for the suggesting this book.

Sorry I´m late with this, though I should lead the discussion. Thanks all for commenting!
I read it today, not grabbing that the video Carol linked was her original speech on the whole. Will have to catch up on this. Her voice sounds nice and pleasant.

Though I don´t have much experience in feminist reading, I found it a bit old-fashioned. Still, I thought that many things are still like they were 10 years ago. Still no equal pay and many "bricks" in the heads of those having grown up with the superiority of men.

I´m guilty of the affliction many women have, wanting to be liked, as Mirela mentioned above.

I also wondered whether her experience from Nigeria or as a black woman would be different from those of white women or women from Europe or the US?

Michaela wrote: "I also wondered whether her experience from Nigeria or as a black woman would be different from those of white women or women from Europe or the US?"

Most definitely Michaela. This short essay only touches on a few selected topics that Adichie prioritizes because of her own experiences. Reading them opens us all up to intersectionality and diverse feminism unique to her (culture, class, race, religion, sexuality, etc.).

Michaela wrote: "I'm guilty of the affliction many women have, wanting to be liked, as Mirela mentioned above.."

In The Witches Are Coming by Lindy West, the essay that really struck me was on how likeablity is a con for women. It's like an unnamed weapon that has been deployed so long against women that women have internalized it and will wield it against other women. I include a bit more detail in my review - https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Thanks for the interesting answers Anita and Woman Reading!

It's interesting, i never really personally deeply reflected on the idea of likeability from a feminist lens, but I did just finish a book The Ballerinas by Rachel Kapelke-Dale that had a subtly growing undercurrent of.. idk like feminist awakening theme (is this a thing?) Where later on the MC begins to notice and not care that everyone around her is expecting her to be nice and likeable. She starts to fight against her learned behaviors as a trained ballerina. It's actually quite good upon reflection with this conversation...

As far as what We Should All Be Feminists is or isn't, it isn't The Second Sex, by any means, but it wasn't meant to be. For what it is - an essay written from a speech given by Adichie - it was quite groundbreaking in bringing the idea of feminism out to the masses.

Janhavi wrote: "I just read this at the start of December, and apart from of course feeling that it is dated I really do think it is great for people new to feminism. Since it was optimised for a talk and subseque..."

All great points. I also noticed that Adichie doesn't write about non-binary genders and her focus is on man/woman relationships, so definitely she isn't all inclusive. We would need to do deeper delving into different writers and topics, which we would love any and all recommendations that may stem from this discussion. Your topic of infantcide is definitely an important one, and thank you for bringing it up. And this is why we read and discuss.

Hi! I read this years ago - it was actually part of my bridesmaid gift!

Situating this Ted Talk turned book within its time, this felt revolutionary in its simplicity, and it spoke to a lot of burgeoning feminists (like me!)

Growing up in the mid-aughts in public school, this was the time when "I'm not a feminist but..." or "I believe in equality but I'm not a feminist" were common enough phrases to be heard.

Anita you are right that Adichie in recent years has exemplified the trend in British Feminism to be anti-trans. She has publicly supported JK Rowling who has long-since double downed on her anti-trans stance.

I was born in the 80s and growing up, in my family at least, feminism was a dirty word. If I ever questioned gender roles in my family or mentioned anything even remotely related to womens rights, my comments were at best ignored, at worst treated with mockery and scorn. Even as a student at university just 15 years ago I remember a friend asking me with a suspicious look on his face if I considered myself to be a feminist.

I think that this book did not contain new information for many people and did not go into much depth, but this was not what Adichie intended. It was an adaptation of a Ted talk where Adichie shared her personal experiences of modern sexism and of feminism related shame, particularly as an African feminist. For people like me it put a new, more modern and more inclusive lens on that dirty word. And it made me recognise my own shame for what it was. It allowed me to acknowledge that my frustrations were legitimate, even in a time when a lot of people would rather believe that men and women are equal now and we should shut up, stop complaining, and appreciate what we've got.

Re-reading the book now, it does feel rather dated but a lot has changed in the 10 years since Adichie gave the talk. It makes me proud to see my teenage niece not feel shame for her feminist beliefs. If she were to read this book right now she would probably be unimpressed! But this is a good thing. It shows that we have come a long way with the fourth wave feminism which began the same year Adichie gave her talk.

There is a blatant lack of recognition of LGBTQIA experiences in the book. But at the same time, it's a highly personal book about her own experiences. I do feel like her views on embracing individuality as opposed to prescriptive gender expectations is inclusive of all. Nevertheless some recognition, at the very least, should have been there.

Interesting about feminism (in the UK at least) being anti-trans and Adichie even having defended JK Rowling. I thought it was perhaps because the essay is already 10 years old, and much has developed in this time.

I also heard that feminism was regarded as anti-black/PoC/Indigenous, as white feminists didn´t regard class differences. Any ideas?

Michaela wrote: "Interesting about feminism (in the UK at least) being anti-trans and Adichie even having defended JK Rowling. I thought it was perhaps because the essay is already 10 years old, and much has develo..."

In the US, I would frame the rift between Black feminists and white feminist movement leadership differently. White feminist leaders thought that their own (elitist) priorities reflected the priorities of all women because, really, they didn't care about the priorities of women other than those similarly situated to themselves. They disregarded Black women as women. They were focused, for example, on employment discrimination and the glass ceiling, but ignored availability of child care or other issues relevant to women in poverty.

The rejection of Black women from the feminist movement started with the Suffrage Movement, where Black folk were thrown under the bus swiftly in exchange for suffrage for white women, and that willingness to trade anything for self-interest continued on into the 1960s and beyond.

"How the Suffrage Movement Betrayed Black Women" https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/28/op...

This article, "The Gaps of White Feminism and the Women of Color who Fell Through", includes this summary statement.

White feminism, from the start, sought “self-preservation,” as Stanton put it, above all things. Over the course of a century, white feminists sought power over, rather than liberation from, oppressive systems.

https://www.newamerica.org/the-thread...

Thanks Carol! Can´t access the NY Times article, as I´m outside the US, but what you mentioned reminded me of what I´d heard/read about racism in feminism, so to say.

Michaela wrote: "Thanks Carol! Can´t access the NY Times article, as I´m outside the US, but what you mentioned reminded me of what I´d heard/read about racism in feminism, so to say."

Understood - I don't mean to have a mental block about this. I actually thought, surely, they're willing to take Michaela's non-American $, too. : ) Sent to your inbox.

Thanks, Carol! Will have a look...

bell hooks "Feminist Theory" does an incredible job of articulating how white feminism exploited and abandoned and gaslit black women in the movement. and she articulates a clear ideological adjustment that compels feminism to be radically inclusive that I felt was missing from this old essay of Adichie's. I keep wondering, how do feminists keep missing this?

Hi all, I read this about four years ago, on a crowded train. A middle aged man saw the cover and was so horrified he got up and moved! 😊

Hannah wrote: "I was born in the 80s and growing up, in my family at least, feminism was a dirty word. If I ever questioned gender roles in my family or mentioned anything even remotely related to womens rights, ..."

Hannah, agree with a lot of what you say. We Should All Be Feminists struck a chord at a time when we were unlearning our distortion of what feminism (i.e. men-hating women who did not care about personal hygiene or looked like men or androgynous and were obsolete).

Now it's making me reflect upon Roxanne Gay's Bad Feminist or Lindy West's Shrill in that We Should All Be Feminists looked at something as "trivial" like liking to wear lipstick and proudly being a feminist.

I think we forget how easily being a feminist was not an identity that was considered morally good or cool 10 years ago.

Erika wrote: "bell hooks "Feminist Theory" does an incredible job of articulating how white feminism exploited and abandoned and gaslit black women in the movement. and she articulates a clear ideological adjust..."

I would also add bell hooks' Feminism Is For Everybody is an excellent resource, if we are to look at feminism from class, gender, and race. bell hooks breaks things down concisely. I remember getting a lot from her chapter on abortion.

I actually just finished listening to this on a walk w/ my dog. Agree with many who say this is dated and a little light on being informative. It's in the 4ish zone for me almost entirely because it is almost 10 yrs old and it's a time capsule view of feminism. Amazing how different we express our ideas today. That is not to say there has been progress, maybe progress in articulating the issue. For example, for me it was grating that Adiche referred to the idea feminism as related to gender. Like the issues of inequality and abuse and subjugation of women was because they are women. Gender is a catalyst not the active ingredient. The issue is the perception of gender and cultural roles and entitlements based upon gender, not the gender itself. This is worldwide. I know Adiche gets this and said as much in the essay as well. But she kept slipping back into such and "such is based on gender" and that just isn't a great expression of the idea.

Thanks for your ideas Monica! Good point about the "gender" repetition.

Monica wrote: "Gender is a catalyst not the active ingredient. The issue is the perception of gender and cultural roles and entitlements based upon gender, not the gender itself..."

I completely agree Monica. It would be really interesting to see how Adichie would write this same essay if she was starting again today. Considering how much has changed regarding our language and understanding of gender perceptions I think that it would be quite different. And I also agree that this is something that Adichie 'gets'

I'm echoing what everyone else has said really. This was well written and engaging but didn't really tell me anything new.