Classics and the Western Canon discussion

We last read the Aeneid in this group about a decade ago, so it's time for another look. The approach we took the last time was quite slow -- one book per week -- which was just about right, if memory serves. This is a rich work with a lot to talk about, so I think a leisurely stroll is warranted. Let's see how one book per week goes and if it's too slow we can adjust the schedule.

Jan 12 - Book 1
Jan 19 - Book 2
.........
March 30 - Book 12

There are numerous translations of the Aeneid, most of them very good, but of course they differ in style and intent. Even the author's name can vary -- some have it as Vergil, some Virgil. I am partial to Sarah Ruden's translation. I have looked at a few others, and I always go back to Ruden's, which is fluid, straightforward, and humble. Shadi Bartsch's translation is the most recent, as far as I know, and has been appreciated for its closeness to the original Latin. I might check that one out this time.

Here is the place for your thoughts on translations, as well as background research. Homer might be the best background material you can have at your side here. The Aeneid is modeled on Homer's epics, so some knowledge of the Iliad and Odyssey can be very helpful. Vergil used Homer as a model, but he was also writing a foundational story of Rome, so historical background on Rome up to the time of Augustus will also be useful.

The C. Day Lewis translation has been my go-to translation for many years, supplemented by the Allen Mandelbaum translation. I’ve also got Seamus Heaney’s version of Book VI around here somewhere (purchased in the Shannon airport bookstore).

But I’ve been hearing such good things about the Sarah Ruden and recent Shadi Bartsch translations that I’ve ordered samples for my Kindle to check them out.

I will be reading the Robert Fagles translation (the only one in my local bookstore), but like Susan am also interested in the Ruden and Bartsch translations.

On Bartsch, I recently listened to an interview she did with Tyler Cowen on a number of topics, including her translation of the Aeneid. https://conversationswithtyler.com/ep...

I've never read this book before but I have a Fitzgerald's translation sitting in my bookshelf, so I will (try to) read that one.
I'm not very good at reviewing books myself but I'm looking forward to hearing other people's opinions. I think it's going to be interesting.

I'm looking forward to discussing the Aeneid! Just checked out the Shadi Bartsch translation from the library, and I've got the Seamus Heaney translation of Book VI which has been sitting on the shelf waiting for me to read it...

I know not everyone likes reading introductions, but I read Shadi Bartsch's introduction, and it's engaging and well written.

An interesting take on the Bartsch and Ruden translations:

https://athenaeumreview.org/review/ae...

Thomas wrote: "An interesting take on the Bartsch and Ruden translations:

https://athenaeumreview.org/review/ae..."


Interesting article! I'm persuaded to pick up a copy of Ruden's translation.

I read the Fagles and Frederick Ahl (OUP) translations while studying for the first time last year. Both have their virtues, but OUP has better footnotes, as usual.

I'm reading Bartsch's translation now. I'm loving it so far. Nice, modern introduction, too.

I'm not going to rank them, but if it's your first read, Fagles is probably clearest. I wouldn't recommend Ahl or Bartsch for a first read unless you are well acquainted with epic poetry.

Hello everyone, I will be reading David West's translation. Looking forward to the experience of reading the Aeneid along with you!

After doing a little research and comparison of the Sarah Ruden and Shadi Bartsch translations, I’ve decided, somewhat to my surprise, to go with the Robert Fagles and John Dryden translations for this read. Picking a translation is very personal, but my impression is the Fagles translation seems more faithful, especially to the tone and poetry of the Aeneid. Despite its age, the Dryden version is frequently cited as an exemplar in the reviews I saw so I think it will be interesting to take a look.

The Fitzgerald translation is very readable. He puts the Aeneid into iambic pentameter, which is appropriate for an epic poem in the English language.

The Dryden is the original and possibly still the greatest.

Donnally wrote: "The Fitzgerald translation is very readable. He puts the Aeneid into iambic pentameter, which is appropriate for an epic poem in the English language.

The Dryden is the original and possibly still..."

Do take a look at the link Thomas posted @ 6 re the Bartsch and Ruden translations. I guess the discussion particularly caught my ear because a) I have a friend who instinctively writes poetry while I instinctively write prose. She has made me aware of how poetry can take one places prose may not, particularly places related to "feelings" in contrast to empirically verifiable observations. b) when we were reading The Decameron, I found myself searching down a copy of Erich Auerbach 's Mimesis: The Representation of Reality in Western Literature. That took me down a path much outside my comfort zone, philology ("anything... relevant to literature or to language as used in literature"). But it seems to me those are the types of issues that article touches upon. Perhaps this is all influenced at the moment for me by recent discussions around that ancient phrase: "In the beginning was the Word, and ..."

So what translation are you planning to read, Lily?

Thank you for directing me to Auerbach's Mimesis. I have that on hand so I'll check it out. I also seem to have the Bartsch translation and will start with that. I have a few books of the Cranch translation so I'll see how different two versions can be. Looking forward to this.

Hello everyone, I'm going to try & join in with this Aeneid read-along. I have the audiobook of the Cecil Day-Lewis translation for long walks and have ordered the Sarah Ruden translation in paperback for fireside reading. Like others I'll also switch to Seamus Heaney for Book VI.

Re Mimesis Hoping to find Auerbach mentioning Aeneid, I instead found his first chapter is about "Odysseus' Scar", reminding me of our discussion of scars in the Lawrence short story. No Aeneid, but his discussion of Homer will be useful, I am sure.

Susan wrote: "So what translation are you planning to read, Lily?"

I haven't pulled it from my shelf yet -- I suspect I have only one edition of Aeneid and will try to follow along the discussion from it. Unfortunately, I am facing some issues that are sidelining me from reading along with us all right now, so I am unlikely to either try to find an additional library copy or buy another edition. But I do hope to be able to follow the discussion here.

My first time around I read the Mendelbaum translation. They are usually beautiful. This time I'm going for Fitzgerald, an old stand by.

Thomas wrote: "An interesting take on the Bartsch and Ruden translations:

https://athenaeumreview.org/review/ae..."

Interesting article, thank you for sharing!

I've enjoyed Fagles's "testosterone-driven" version of the Iliad, and I will read his translation of the Aeneid this time.


I'm also armed with this side-by-side Latin and English edition put together Franz Ruedele: The Aeneid (Translated): Latin and English

Each Latin paragraph is displayed with its English translation on the facing page. All Latin pages have a "new vocabulary" footnote, translating individual words that appeared for the first time in the poem. A complete vocabulary is present at the end of the book (around 100 pages)
The English text on the right side is the 1885 J.W. Makail's prose translation.


On the downside, the resulting tome is BIG, around 750 pages almost A4 in size. The cover is way too soft for a book that can be easily used as a weapon. I am also a bit disappointed with the vocabulary, it's quite odd and rudimentary.

Susan wrote: "The C. Day Lewis translation has been my go-to translation for many years, supplemented by the Allen Mandelbaum translation. I’ve also got Seamus Heaney’s version of Book VI around here somewhere (..."

I didn't know about either the Cecil Day Lewis or Seamus Heaney translations! I would love to read both of those; they are both fine poets. Thanks Susan, Dave, and others.

The book I have is the Fitzgerald one, but I absolutely am going to buy Heaney for Book IV!

I thought I wasn't going to have time to join in, but the schedule looks like I can do it. Quite excited to finally read this one! I've read the Odyssey and the Iliad more than once, but I somehow never read the Aeneid.

Jacob recommended an interview with Shadi Bartsch
Thank you, Jacob. I just listened to that interview. Shadi Bartsch is terrific. It is a wonderful podcast. She sounds delightful and brilliant. Let me repeat the link, because everyone should try it.

https://conversationswithtyler.com/ep...

Susan wrote: "So what translation are you planning to read, Lily?"

Finally checked my shelves. Indulged myself last time we read this -- both the Everyman hard copy and the Fagles translation. It took a bit of looking to find the translator, but the Everyman was Fritzgerald. Clearly, turning attention on the translator has increased over the years. I suspect I won't indulge, even library borrow, in a third viewpoint, but look forward to what each of you will bring to the table.

I had a difficult call to take this morning, but before I did, I dipped into the Aeneid as one might into a sacred text. Fascinating to me what a few minutes of reading brought to the conscious thought processes, especially as warriors evoked their patron gods and protectors.

Glad you will be able to join us as you can, Lily. Your comments always bring a unique perspective that makes me think.

Lily wrote: "Susan wrote: "So what translation are you planning to read, Lily?"

Finally checked my shelves. Indulged myself last time we read this -- both the Everyman hard copy and the Fagles translation. It ..."
So are you also reading the Fagles translation? What do you think of it so far? I just finished Book l and I am a bit disappointed, Fagles seems a bit tired in here, he lacks the strength from his translation of the Iliad. The translation was published in 2006, just two years before his death, maybe this played a role as well...

I am enjoying going back and forth from Bartsch on Kindle and Sarah Ruden in paperback. Don't know how long that will last. I have gotten an actual paperback because I knew I would be marking it up a lot. also, I have a few books of Cranch, which no has mentioned. So far he seems to be most direct. I am in a windstorm of Aeneids. Oh, Jupiter, calm these waters.

I think it would be more appropriate to address your prayer to Neptune.

Sam escalated the matter directly to Jove, equally appropriate!

Will Fate have the final word?

Sam wrote: "Jacob recommended an interview with Shadi Bartsch
Thank you, Jacob. I just listened to that interview. Shadi Bartsch is terrific. It is a wonderful podcast. She sounds delightful and brilliant. Let..."

You're very welcome, Sam!

Could you repost the schedule? Thanks.

Please repost the schedule. Thanks. Or point me to the original posting.

Sam, the schedule is posted at the beginning of this thread. Just scroll to the top and you'll see Thomas' post.

I see only: book 1, book 2 and book 12.

Rafael, although Thomas didn't include a complete list, he did specify one book a week. Since this is Week 7, the discussion is on Book 7.

Thomas wrote: "Let's see how one book per week goes and if it's too slow we can adjust the schedule.

Jan 12 - Book 1
Jan 19 - Book 2
.........
March 30 - Book 12.."

Sorry for the confusion everyone. Here's the schedule for the rest of the read spelled out in full:

Book 8 - March 2
Book 9 - March 9
Book 10 - March 16
Book 11 - March 23
Book 12- March 30

Thank you, Thomas.