All About Books discussion

We'll be reading The Prophets by Robert Jones Jr., beginning January 24.

So far, spoko, Greg, Charbel, and Nidhi have expressed some interest. Nidhi, I know we're staring a little early for you, but I'm hoping you'll jump in? And of course, anyone else please feel free to join!

Of course, I will put another book on hold to give this one priority. When do we start?

Nidhi wrote: "Of course, I will put another book on hold to give this one priority. When do we start?"

Jan 24th. I'm excited for this.

My copy just arrived today. I have set it aside and am excited to start on the 24th!

Now I just need to wrap up my current book fast. :)

Greg wrote: "My copy just arrived today. I have set it aside and am excited to start on the 24th!

Now I just need to wrap up my current book fast. :)"

Me too

I know it's a little bit early, but given how I finished my previous book earlier than anticipated, I'll be starting this either tonight or tomorrow.

I don't think I was prepared for how heavy of a read this is. It's quite intense.

I'll start Monday Charbel. Very close to wrapping up my current one.

I started it today. Reading 3 chapters, I like the style, the story is gripping. It is not an easy read but I expected that after reading the GR description.

Nidhi wrote: "I started it today. Reading 3 chapters, I like the style, the story is gripping. It is not an easy read but I expected that after reading the GR description."

Good to hear Nidhi!

Nidhi wrote: "I started it today. Reading 3 chapters, I like the style, the story is gripping. It is not an easy read but I expected that after reading the GR description."

Yeah the writing is good. I'm not really familiar with the ultra southern African American dialect of the time, so it took a bit to get used to the dialogue, but the prose itself is very good.

Greg wrote: "I'll start Monday Charbel. Very close to wrapping up my current one."

No rush Greg. What are you wrapping up?

Charbel wrote: "Greg wrote: "I'll start Monday Charbel. Very close to wrapping up my current one."

No rush Greg. What are you wrapping up?"

A very different book! Finishing up The Shadow of the Gods with a fantasy/sci-fi group; it's a lot of fun - a viking saga. I figued The Prophets might be heavy, and I like to mix things up.

I'm very excited for Prophets though. Will start soon!

Greg wrote: "Charbel wrote: "Greg wrote: "I'll start Monday Charbel. Very close to wrapping up my current one."

No rush Greg. What are you wrapping up?"

A very different book! Finishing up [book:The Shadow of..."

I've heard great things about The Shadow of The Gods. Yes, these are 2 very different experiences; I'll probably go for something lighter after I finish The Prophet.

So far, I read the first four chapters:

I like the style of the book. It's so impressionistic and unique, and that gives it a very intimate feel for me, as though I'm eavesdropping on private thoughts. But sometimes it does make me work to figure out the facts because it doesn't lay things out in a simple way.

I wasn't even sure at first that the two of them were both slaves.

I was thrown by the scene where Samuel notices that the paint on the barn needs new paint. It says: "He wasn't going to paint anything, provided the Halifaxes didn't force his hand." But it seemed peculiar that he would even think of doing a task like painting the barn unless he was told to do it. He talks as though he has the choice as to whether to paint the barn or not. But how would he paint it anyway if he wasn't given the task and the paint?

At first, I thought maybe Samuel was in a higher position than Isaiah in some way, but as I've gotten further, I'm thinking this is just a peculiarity of Samuel's. He doesn't like to look on unpleasant things directly.

Samuel seems a little less willing to accept the reality of his situation as a slave too. He thinks about Isaiah, "There was no need to be as obedient as Isaiah always was," though for a slave to appear obedient in small things is a reasonable way to avoid trouble, I'd think. And when they're working together in the barn, Isaiah smiles at Samuel's "grunts and sighs and head shaking" at having to do the work."

There are a lot of things Samuel doesn't want to think about. He wants to preserve himself by not acknowledging things, even to himself. So when Isaiah asks him about his mom, it's like "a pin . . . stabbing at his chest." He tries to suppress the thought of her afterwards, but she becomes a kind of ghost or "shadow." I like the part where he points at phantom shadows he sees in the forest. It's as though the things he suppresses take on a life of their own.

I love the line in the Psalms chapter:

"For survival, everything that was learned had to be transmitted by circling the thing rather than uncovering it"

The approach to everything has to be indirect, couched in avoidances, full of "inherited" quiet. Nothing can be met directly. And I can feel that in the style of the book too - it matches that psychological state where the characters live.

I really like all these fine psychological details in the first chapters!

But I'll admit that I do find myself quite often going back and reading some passages a couple times to be sure I've understood everything. This is not a book I could burn through quickly!

Greg wrote: "So far, I read the first four chapters:

I like the style of the book. It's so impressionistic and unique, and that gives it a very intimate feel for me, as though I'm eavesdropping on private thou..."

Some great insight there Greg. I interpreted it as Samuel being more concerned with the future and aiming to leave the plantation and be free. Maybe he takes pleasure in small acts of rebellion (or at least considering them), or maybe it helps him assert to himself that, no matter, what the people around him tell him or believe, he doesn't belong to anyone.

Isaiah seems to be the realist. He's more centred in the present. He doesn't like it, but rather than be preoccupied with notions of escape, he seems more concerned with maintaining his connections to his past and culture. Maybe to him that's freedom; staying in touch with that identity, rather than accepting the one the slavers gave him.

I will say that I'm not fond of the multiple points of views. Only because it's becoming a little formulaic. A character is mentioned in an another's chapter, whether by dialogue or introspection, and then the next chapter is their POV, but the author decides to flesh them out through pages and pages of contemplation. It feels like he's telling us what each character is like, rather than showing us.

As for the writing, I like it, but at some points it gets a little "wordy". Sometimes it almost borders magical realism, but it doesn't cross that line (or at least hasn't yet).

Greg wrote: “He thinks about Isaiah, “There was no need to be as obedient as Isaiah always was,” though for a slave to appear obedient in small things is a reasonable way to avoid trouble, I’d think.”

The sense I get from Samuel is that he wouldn’t recognize much distinction between appearing obedient and being obedient, and he’s trying to refuse the latter. Even the grunts and sighs and head shaking, tiny rebellions though they might be, are of a piece with his larger desire to break away entirely.

The moment of Samuel’s that I’ve really loved so far was his reluctantly straightening up the scattered hay in the barn. It’s such a tender, caretaking moment, paying attention to the details in order to guard his relationship with Isaiah. Out of character, but really not so much.

I’m enjoying the writing quite a bit at the moment. It started off a bit dry, but I think the changes in viewpoint helped. I’m only four chapters in, though, so maybe it will start to wear thin for me as well.

spoko wrote: "The sense I get from Samuel is that he wouldn’t recognize much distinction between appearing obedient and being obedient, and he’s trying to refuse the latter. Even the grunts and sighs and head shaking, tiny rebellions though they might be, are of a piece with his larger desire to break away entirely.

The moment of Samuel’s that I’ve really loved so far "

I think that's right spoko. As I got further, I can see numerous instances of things like this. Pretty much every slave tries to preserve their identity somehow, by suppressing the knowledge of things, by small (or even large) acts of resistance, or by keeping things private so they can't be sullied, etc.

spoko, I also love that part with the straightening of the hay. If Isaiah had done it, that would have been more expected because he seems the more internally aware of the two and also the more outwardly cautious or caring. But I think this is one of those moments where it shows the depth of Samuel's feeling.

Nidhi wrote: "I started it today. Reading 3 chapters, I like the style, the story is gripping. It is not an easy read but I expected that after reading the GR description."

Nidhi, I feel like those first chapters with just Isaiah and Samuel are the most lyric, the most impressionistic, and therefore the most difficult to read directly. A lot of the other sections are more straightforward, for me anyway. More lyric/impressionistic chapters occur later, but they seem to be shorter than the others.

Hope you're still enjoying it!

Charbel wrote: "I interpreted it as Samuel being more concerned with the future and aiming to leave the plantation and be free. Maybe he takes pleasure in small acts of rebellion (or at least considering them), or maybe it helps him assert to himself that, no matter, what the people around him tell him or believe, he doesn't belong to anyone.

Isaiah seems to be the realist. He's more centred in the present. He doesn't like it, but rather than be preoccupied with notions of escape, he seems more concerned with maintaining his connections to his past and culture. Maybe to him that's freedom; staying in touch with that identity, rather than accepting the one the slavers gave him."

I like this a lot Charbel, and it feels right to me.

Isaiah seems more internally aware. He's more willing to face tough things inwardly, but Samuel is much more willing to confront them outwardly. It's Isaiah who is "looking outward but seeing inward," but it is always Samuel who is the one to throw the rock.

As far as the sections with the different perspectives, it hasn't been bothering me, but I do know what you mean. And I have read several books that have a similar organization. There are for sure a whole lot of different perspectives here, even in the first 100 pages!

I do kind of like seeing how the others on the plantation see the two young men. It's interesting to see them through all those different eyes. But that certainly does lengthen the narrative and make it move more slowly, since there are so many diversions.

One thing I really appreciate about the style though are the extended metaphors. There are some really lovely ones. It's a matter of personal taste, but those moments feel close to poetry for me . . . and I tend to like poetry.

This one for instance that symbolically captures the special intimacy or connection between the two young men:

"Yes, even now he noticed the reality flickering between them. It was like the finest of spiderwebs with a tenuous amount of dew trembling on the strands of it, suddenly snatched away and then reconstructed within the blink of an eye, delicate tendrils that were somehow stronger than they appeared, holding the weight of a rainstorm . . . ."

It's fairly gorgeous.

Many of the perspectives have these metaphoric aspects, from Essie's internal board "fence" to Amos' imaginary spiderwebs to Samuel's metaphoric metal pin with a drop of blood. It feels a little weird that all of these different people would think of things in this poetic a way because I'm not sure it's that widespread a way of thinking. This seems more of the author coming through rather than the characters' actual thoughts. But I do find that aspect lovely, even if it doesn't feel like a natural fit in every place it comes up.

I too like poetry. And figurative language in prose, like the arrow with blood on its tip, it caught me unawares and I went back to beginning rereading the text.

What lovely discussion we are having it increases the enjoyment of book.

Thanks buddies.

I'm about 100 pages in now (about 25% done).

At first, I found it a little curious as to what would attract Maggie to the two young men. She's a harsh character - in the first "Maggie" section, she (view spoiler)[kills a baby (hide spoiler)] after all! But there seems to be something she honors in the bravery of these men, in their nurturing a private, profound joy within the teeth of an incredibly hostile environment.

As Amos says, "Even with Essie, his embrace was one arm only." It's a little crazy to dare something that goes as deep as the young men are daring, knowing that they can be torn apart at a master's whim.

There's something almost sacred in the forging of a true human connection here, where almost no humanity is possible.

One thing that confused me in the "Genesis" section:

What do you think it means when it says:

"To fold in on yourself is where you will find power"

This whole section is very lyrical and a little unclear, but that sentence in particular I felt unsure about. I thought of a few possibilities, but none of them fully satisfied me. Maybe I will just need to go back to it at the end of the book and think about this again? Or does anyone have any ideas?

Nidhi wrote: "I too like poetry. And figurative language in prose, like the arrow with blood on its tip, it caught me unawares and I went back to beginning rereading the text.

What lovely discussion we are havi..."

So glad Nidhi, it's great to have you join us! :)

It's so sad, the "Leviticus" chapter . . . but beautifully done, the first (view spoiler)[sign of discord between Samuel and Isaiah (hide spoiler)]. Such a small moment, just a conversation, and yet so meaningful.

Greg wrote: "It's so sad, the "Leviticus" chapter . . . but beautifully done, the first [spoilers removed]. Such a small moment, just a conversation, and yet so meaningful."

I expected something like this to happen at some point, but I didn't expect it to happen so early.

The Ruth chapter made me feel very uncomfortable, which was the point, I guess. But I haven't had such a visceral reaction to a book in quite a while.

Charbel wrote: "The Ruth chapter made me feel very uncomfortable, which was the point, I guess. But I haven't had such a visceral reaction to a book in quite a while."

Yeah, I just read that one yesterday night. It was such a harsh and humiliating thing (view spoiler)[to harness, humiliate, and abuse them in that way (hide spoiler)]. And Ruth's total lack of perspective or remorse on what she did is unnerving!

I think that is one thing that makes this novel heavy - there is so much inhumanity, even in the smaller things. It is as though the slaves have to repress parts of their own humanity just to survive the hellish environment. What they go through is horrifying, and it makes the read sometimes greuling despite the book's lyricism.

I was expecting horrors eventually, but if this happens already halfway through the book, I am a little afraid of what will happen as the situation inevitably escalates further!

I just finished the "Timothy" section about halfway though. I'm not sure - is everything in order in terms of time? If the "Timothy" section happens after the "Ruth" section, it must be a while after? Maybe the time order will be clearer as I get further.

Greg wrote: "I just finished the "Timothy" section about halfway though. I'm not sure - is everything in order in terms of time? If the "Timothy" section happens after the "Ruth" section, it must be a while aft..."

Yes, the Timothy section happens after Ruth's (but not immediately after). This is confirmed by (view spoiler)[Timothy commenting on the scars left by the lashings (because of Ruth) on Isaiah's back (hide spoiler)].

Charbel wrote: "Greg wrote: "I just finished the "Timothy" section about halfway though. I'm not sure - is everything in order in terms of time? If the "Timothy" section happens after the "Ruth" section, it must b..."

Oh ok, thanks Charbel. I wasn't sure if (view spoiler)[those were older scars from something else, but I think it did mention blisters, which implies newer (hide spoiler)]. I was thrown by the fact that (view spoiler)[they both seemed to be walking about without pain and that the relationship between Isaiah and Samuel seemed to be going on as if nothing had happened. I guess if enough time elapsed then the healing of their backs and also some healing of their relationship must have occurred "offscreen"? (hide spoiler)]

Greg wrote: "Charbel wrote: "Greg wrote: "I just finished the "Timothy" section about halfway though. I'm not sure - is everything in order in terms of time? If the "Timothy" section happens after the "Ruth" se..."

That's understandable Greg. I'm not really sure how much time had elapsed either.

I'm not sure how I feel about the more fantastical elements of the story, or at the very least what seem to be fantastical elements. The setting is very real, the characters are very grounded in the setting (for the most part), so it's a little bit jarring when the supernatural is hinted at or even depicted out of nowhere. And because of the author's more metaphorically inclined writing style, sometimes I struggle to understand whether the supernatural did in fact take place or whether it's all allegorical.

Charbel wrote: "I'm not sure how I feel about the more fantastical elements of the story, or at the very least what seem to be fantastical elements. The setting is very real, the characters are very grounded in th..."

Do you mean (view spoiler)[the healing ritual Charbel (hide spoiler)]? Or maybe I haven't gotten to the part you're talking about yet? I'm at the beginning of the "Nebuchadnezzar" section, just over halfway.

Greg wrote: "Charbel wrote: "I'm not sure how I feel about the more fantastical elements of the story, or at the very least what seem to be fantastical elements. The setting is very real, the characters are ver..."

It's a couple of things that occur just a tad later. Although it might get clarified in the next coming chapters. I think I'm getting close to the end, which given the writing style and the dense subject matter, is quite surprising as I thought it would be a much slower read.

I'll let you know what I think when I get to those!

I really like in the "Nebuchadnezzar" section the tenderness between the two men despite (view spoiler)[Isaiah's forced sexual acts with Timothy. Samuel is jealous of course, but his feelings for Isaiah win out. Also, I like that Isaiah tried to be as honest as he possibly could, telling the truth of his experience even when he knew that would be painful to both of them. (hide spoiler)] This is another one of those moments where I can see the depth of their feelings for each other, particularly Samuel's as he's generally less demonstrative.

I found this short section quite touching.

Nidhi and spoko, are you still reading this or has life intervened? :) If you're still reading, just wondering if you're still enjoying it?

Yes, life has intervened but I expected that also. My daughter has to prepare for final exams and schools are still online.

I just finished Essie chapter, I like everything about the book, but not able to ‘breeze through ‘it, sometimes I have to go back and read. Both Maggie and Essie talk in riddles , dropping hints about future, makes plot intriguing.

I hope to make substantial progress this weekend.

Nidhi wrote: "Yes, life has intervened but I expected that also. My daughter has to prepare for final exams and schools are still online.

I just finished Essie chapter, I like everything about the book, but not..."

No rush at all Nidhi, I was just wondering how you were liking it so far. :)

Hope your daughter's final exams go well!

Having schools online can make things more challenging for students and parents. My nephew in college told me he finds his online classes much harder because he ends up having to teach himself quite a lot. He definitely prefers the in-person classes, though of course he also wants to be safe. For the year where he was completely online, he actually called me a few times for help in explaining some difficult computer programming and calculus concepts.

It’s difficult for everyone, big kids have their whole career on stake, my daughter is just seven, she needs my ‘constant vigilance ‘ lol. But we in India are hopeful about a normal school session this year.

Nidhi wrote: "It’s difficult for everyone, big kids have their whole career on stake, my daughter is just seven, she needs my ‘constant vigilance ‘ lol. But we in India are hopeful about a normal school session ..."

lol Nidhi :)

I do have a niece who is six years old, and my sister in law was extremely happy when in person school resumed in Seattle USA!

Glad to hear India is hopeful for that this year too!

The "Bel and The Dragon" section was devastating and beautifully done.

I had no idea about the Bel and Dragon Bible stories because they're not included in the Protestant Bible, only the Catholic one. But the offerings to idols and the violence of the Bel story in particular make it an apt title I think.

Greg wrote: "The "Bel and The Dragon" section was devastating and beautifully done.

I had no idea about the Bel and Dragon Bible stories because they're not included in the Protestant Bible, only the Catholic ..."

The biblical references are on point.

I just finished it, and I'm still processing the ending. I'll rate and review it in a bit. I can't wait to see what you all think of the ending.

Charbel wrote: "Greg wrote: "Charbel wrote: "I'm not sure how I feel about the more fantastical elements of the story, or at the very least what seem to be fantastical elements. The setting is very real, the chara..."

Hi Charbel, I think I got to the things you were talking about. Do you mean, the (view spoiler)[superstitions, like the shadow various characters talk about, the thing where Maggie throws down the salt, the divination through knuckle bones (hide spoiler)]?

I think those parts (view spoiler)[could be just in the characters' perspective. Kind of a remnant of former religious practices of their ancestors. I don't know if Maggie is really divining the truth through the knucklebones, or if she just knows intuitively what is going to happen and believes that she has found out the truth by throwing the bones. And the storm and lightning could be coincidental, even though the characters believe that they are having a hand in it. The shadow could be something metaphorical that's manifesting itself in their minds. Alternatively, all of these things could be "real." I think I'm taking it more as a nod to the original religious practices of their ancestors and not necessarily 100% real but more in their perceptions (hide spoiler)].

Things are moving fast now. I'm at the beginning of the "James" section and only 70 or so pages from the end.

Greg wrote: "Charbel wrote: "Greg wrote: "Charbel wrote: "I'm not sure how I feel about the more fantastical elements of the story, or at the very least what seem to be fantastical elements. The setting is very..."

The thing at the time that stood out to me the most was (view spoiler)[Paul seeing his mum, and seeing her essentially warn him to run. I would have written it off as a hallucination, but given the references to shadows and images of people flashing (there one second, gone the next), I think there was a little bit mysticism happening in the plot (hide spoiler)].

Charbel wrote: "Greg wrote: "Charbel wrote: "Greg wrote: "Charbel wrote: "I'm not sure how I feel about the more fantastical elements of the story, or at the very least what seem to be fantastical elements. The se..."

That makes sense. I do feel a touch of mysticism too overall. There are several characters who have experiences that border on mystical ones throughout the book. It's not quite 100% conclusive, but it definitely tilts that way.

That's why I wondered if it was going to take the leap and go into magical realism, but that never happened. Then the way I reasoned it was if you were seriously religious (as all the characters are), whether monotheistic or more ancestrally oriented, then these occurrences wouldn't necessarily strike them as fantastical, as they would with someone like me.

Charbel wrote: "That's why I wondered if it was going to take the leap and go into magical realism, but that never happened. Then the way I reasoned it was if you were seriously religious (as all the characters ar..."

Yes, I think that's true.

I also think that if the characters are religious enough some of it can be in their minds too. The things that happen, they can be interpreted in a mystical way even if there is nothing supernatural about it.

And religious visions are definitely something people can believe that they have - whether they actually happen or not, I can't say . . . all I know for sure is they have not happened to me. :)

I do have friends who believe they have had visions or visitations, and I don't necessarily believe or disbelieve them, but I do believe that they genuinely believe it and I respect their way of seeing it even if I'm not sure what they actually experienced or whether the source of it was psychological, spiritual, or something else.

I did find it interesting the variety of religious expression in the book. Even Amos' approach isn't fully Christian, it's more a melding of different things. And Paul's religion is a mixture as well, but in his case a particularly toxic one, religious stories mixed in and changed by the culture that surrounded him and by his upbringing.

I did love the ending, though (view spoiler)[it does tip over a little more onto the supernatural side, even more so than what came before.

It seems that Samuel's spirit guides Isaiah to safety, encouraging him to run when he was about to give up. Is that how everyone else took it? I love the description of Samuel breaking up into embers - the writing in the last sections is so lyrical and beautiful.

And then there is the very oblique final couple paragraphs. This mysterious thing in the darkness seems to have something to do with the ancestors because there are seven tentacles and seven is associated with the ancestral spirits in various interludes throughout the book. But it isn't clear to me if this is real or in Isaiah's mind.

The thing that curls around his arm could be the ancestors pulling him forward when he would have stopped, just as Samuel's spirit pulled him forward to safety in the direction of the North. Or it could be a snake, some natural creature.

What I wonder is the one word he could never utter? His true name? (hide spoiler)]

Greg wrote: "I did love the ending, though it does tip over a little more onto the supernatural side, even more so than what came before.

It seems that Samuel's spirit guides Isaiah to safety, encouraging him..."

Yes absolutely Greg. I agree that (view spoiler)[ the supernatural aspects are amped up in the ending, and I wasn't sure how to mention it without spoiling it. I like your interpretation more than mine, as it's more optimistic. The way I understood it was Isaiah joining Samuel in the spirit world, as they couldn't really be separated.
I looked it up and the author left it vague on purpose, so there's no way to confirm whether Isaiah is dead or not. (hide spoiler)]

Thanks whoever suggested this and thanks for the buddy read! I hadn't heard of this book, and I'm glad to have read it!

Nidhi and spoko, this thread will stay open if you have more to say later! Would love to hear your thoughts anytime. :) There's no set schedule and no official end date.