Classics and the Western Canon discussion

In the Iliad, Homer asks the goddess to sing of the anger of Achilles; in the Odyssey, he asks the Muse to tell of a man and his many wanderings. Vergil looks to divinity to tell him why Juno makes Aeneas suffer, while at the same time he signals that his subject will encompass the same subjects as Homer's: war and wandering. But he doesn't ask the muse or the goddess for direction in telling his story. He says "Arms and a man *I* sing."

It's clear that Vergil's story follows up on Homer's epics, and that he takes Homer as a model. But there are differences too. Are we able to see in Book One that Aeneas is a different kind of hero than Achilles or Odysseus? The first time we meet Aeneas he is terrified of the storm Juno has unleashed and he wishes that he had been killed by Diomedes on the fields of Troy. What does this portend about Aeneas' character, and why does Vergil introduce him this way?

The Aeneid is also a foundational story of Rome. But Aeneas introduces himself to the Spartan-looking girl (Venus in disguise) as "a needy stranger," which prompts Venus to cut short his "grief, these grievances." Later on, when the cloud that hides him is dispersed, he describes his surviving men as "the scraps the Greeks left. We have nothing."

Aeneas seems terribly human, almost vulnerable in these moments. Why do you suppose Vergil takes this approach?

One of the reasons why is Aeneas so different from Homer's heroes might be what we today call a cultural shift that happened in the centuries between Homer and Virgil. Maybe the literary public at that time started appreciating more human heroes vs. Homer's "superheroes"?
I'm sure there are other explanations but that was the first thing that came to my mind.

It actually surprised me that the foundational story of Rome would be based upon a survival from the losing end of a war. Rome always striked me as a military culture and therefore I expected glorious generals, heroic warriors, etc. It definitely sings to my modern preferences: a survival running with his son...

There is a passage in Book XII of the Iliad in which Poseidon saves Aeneas because he is destined to be the future king of the Trojans. There were various legends prior to the writing of the Aeneid concerning Aeneas and his wanderings westward, and the idea that he had settled among the Etruscans existed before the Aeneid was written. Virgil simply expanded on those tales. There was also a current legend that Rome was founded by the twins Romulus and Remus, and so the Aeneas legend had to be fitted into that myth. It will be seen that Virgil has Aeneas found his settlement a few generations prior to the birth of Romulus.
Virgil also makes it clear that his hero will be different from Achilles and Odysseus. He is a fierce fighter as will be made clear by the narrative in the Aeneid, starting with his description of his defense of Troy, but he is also notable for other qualities, notably his loyalty, devotion and reverence. Virgil saw these as specifically Roman virtues, which the Homeric heroes lacked.
It's also worth noting that so far as I am aware his love affair with Dido was a creation of Virgil's. He is establishing the basis for the wars that were to occur between Rome and Carthage. Indeed, almost everything Aeneas does and says in the Aeneid can be seen as laying the foundation of Rome's view of itself.

I enjoy how Virgil follows the Homeric form and starts the story in the middle with Aeneas just landing at Carthage.

Having Dido cradles love itself in the form of Cupid, you bet there will be a love affair taking place between her and Aeneas.

Howdy all. It's been a few years since I've participated in this group, but I'm stoked to be joining in again for 2022.
This is my first time through the Aeneid, and I am not so up on my ancient mythology, but I am nonetheless super-stoked to join you all in discussion and, as my translation (Fitzgerald) says: "to go out and explore the strange new places" (I.414).

Monica wrote: "It actually surprised me that the foundational story of Rome would be based upon a survival from the losing end of a war. Rome always striked me as a military culture and therefore I expected glori..."

I agree, and I find it really interesting on the dramatic level. Vergil's audience would hear the story from the perspective of a Rome that had conquered and dominated the Greeks, but at the same time they appropriated and absorbed much Greek culture into their own. But there is a humility here, in Book 1 at least, that I don't see in the Homeric epics. As Donnally points out, Aeneas is definitely different from Achilles and Odysseus.

Incidentally, the first half of the Aeneid roughly parallels the Odyssey, while the second half parallels the Iliad. So we'll see something like an Odyssean Aeneas at first, and then an Achillean Aeneas.

Kyle wrote: "Howdy all. It's been a few years since I've participated in this group, but I'm stoked to be joining in again for 2022."

Welcome back, Kyle!

Thomas wrote: "Kyle wrote: "Howdy all. It's been a few years since I've participated in this group, but I'm stoked to be joining in again for 2022."

Welcome back, Kyle!"

Missed ya, Kyle! I'm with Thomas, welcome back!

The comments so far lead me to want to know more about who Virgil was in Roman society.

Lily wrote: "The comments so far lead me to want to know more about who Virgil was in Roman society." Exactly! This is my first time reading the Aeneid, So I have invested some time reading about the origin of the book and the author. It was so interesting that I almost missed our first scheduled date, doing some research on that subject only...

A few remarks on what we learn of Aeneas as a character during Book 1:

Aeneas laments the many ordeals he and his comrades have faced, in multiple scenes within Book 1, often in a manner that seeks to evoke pathos in his listener.

Aeneas shows care for his comrades. Around line 160, he pilots the 7 remaining ships into a harbor. He climbs the cliff, looking for a trace of the 13 lost ships. He then kills stags to provide for his surviving comrades. He then gives a speech to encourage his men that they’re still on course to go to Latium, and the gods will still provide a homeland for them (even though, privately, he appears to doubt whether the gods will carry through on what has been fated/promised).

Aeneas has a strongly emotional reaction—weeping and lamenting—while looking at the pictures of the Trojan War in the temple of Juno. He appears to be re-living those moments all over again.

When Dido enters the temple, and Aeneas and Achates are unseen, Aeneas chooses to hang back, unseen, for awhile to see what Dido says. Then when Aeneas and Achates become visible, Aeneas greets Dido in (as I read it) a very formal way, and with grand compliments directed at Dido; and also with references to his ordeals that seem calculated to arouse Dido’s interest and pity. If anything, he’s being somewhat clever, since he’s received insider knowledge about Dido’s past.

Overall? Aeneas is referred to as pious, and calls himself pious (and repeats that he is bringing with him the "gods of house and home"); but he's also full of sorrow for the ordeals of his and his companions' past; and he appears to waver between confidence about founding a city in Italy, versus doubting this fate; and he acts cautiously (not always speaking his mind or revealing himself right away).

In some ways, the characterization reminds me of Odysseus (most often depicted by Homer as crafty and long-enduring), but just in Book 1 there are hints that the character of Aeneas might be more multi-faceted, and more ambivalent, than Odysseus.

I think quite an interesting question to ask is how could Dido finance Carthage's walls? And not just that: what about her personal guards, the palace's maintenance, the banquet?

Virgil's text mentions several expensive objects and/or behaviors, yet he is silent about how all that wealth could be financed. I find very impressive the enumeration of conspicuous wealth either owned by or anyway available to Dido. To celebrate Aeneas, after the invocation to the Gods (that for free, at least), "libations" are sprinkled on the ground. To welcome Aeneas into her palace, Dido consumes incense. Even more impressive is the quantity of food (and drink) Dido sends to the ships of the Trojans:

"Twice ten fat oxen to the ships she sends;
Besides a hundred boars, a hundred lambs,
With bleating cries, attend their milky dams;
And jars of gen’rous wine and spacious bowls"

Having read Book 1, it became very clear to me that Dido had managed to accumulate a significant stock of wealth, but how? How could her city's economy allow for such a surplus? It is also remarkable that she accomplished to do that while preserving her power. Just imagine the level of taxation (in kind, but not only) the inhabitants or her city had to sustain in order to pay for all that...

I am left with all these questions, but Virgil does not give me answers...My hypothesis is that Juno's protection and favor towards Dido and her city provided uniquely favorable economic conditions conducive to extremely rich harvests etc. I will try to say a prayer to Juno just to test if the hypothesis holds.

One difference between Aeneas and Odysseus that strikes me is that Aeneas tells the truth about who he is to Dido while Odysseus always seems to have a factually untruthful story when meeting strangers (at least to start with).

It has been years since the fall of Troy, and Aeneas and his men are still living with the memory of the war and their defeat, trying to move on, but constantly frustrated. Just as they were nearing their destination in Italy, Juno intervened with the terrible storm. Is it too much to say Aeneas and his men are dealing with PTSD?

Susan wrote: "One difference between Aeneas and Odysseus that strikes me is that Aeneas tells the truth about who he is to Dido while Odysseus always seems to have a factually untruthful story when meeting stran..."

Agree, I would say most probably Aeneas and his fellows suffered indeed from PTSD...unless the semi-divine nature of Aeneas made him immune to that...interesting thought

Savino wrote: "I think quite an interesting question to ask is how could Dido finance Carthage's walls? And not just that: what about her personal guards, the palace's maintenance, the banquet?

Virgil's text me..."

This is a really interesting question; there's no question that Dido and her people have enormous wealth and have many ambitious projects underway at the same time. Two partial answers are suggested in Book 1:

First, when Dido and her followers fled Tyre to get away from her murderous brother, it says that Dido's slain husband revealed to Dido, in a dream, some "unknown ancient treasure, and untold weight of silver and gold" (Fagles translation). Presumably Dido sailed away with as much silver and gold as her ships could bear.

Second, when they arrived at the future site of Carthage, Dido and her people purchased the site from the locals in what appeared to be a clever or sneaky real estate deal: they bought as much land "as a bull's-hide could enclose" but instead of just laying the bull's hide on the ground, they cut it into strips and enclosed a large area. In other words, it sounds like they acquired title to the land at a reasonable price.

tom wrote: "A few remarks on what we learn of Aeneas as a character during Book 1:"

Helpful insights. As one still not really used to reading through poetry, there were definitely parts of this, that I missed.

However, the rhythm and the language of the poetry is simply beautiful in ways that some of the prose I typically enjoy simply doesn't compare with.

One thing that is interesting is thinking about where and when folks may encounter these epic poems for the first time these days. While I recall that portions of Homer were required part of my high school curriculum, we didn't go into the Aeneid at all.

Strange. I wonder why.

Is it significant that Carthage is ruled by a woman? Female figures loom large in Book One, especially the goddesses Juno and Venus, but Vergil emphasizes Dido's power quite simply: "A woman led."

Donnally wrote: "There is a passage in Book XII of the Iliad in which Poseidon saves Aeneas because he is destined to be the future king of the Trojans. There were various legends prior to the writing of the Aeneid..."

Thank you for the background. Nothing rang a bell for me about foreshadowing in Iliad (perhaps because I've never reread it beyond book VI). For all that I've been told in the school, I could not grasp where begins Virgil's invention and ends older myths -- your clarifications help a lot.

tom wrote: "Savino wrote: "I think quite an interesting question to ask is how could Dido finance Carthage's walls? And not just that: what about her personal guards, the palace's maintenance, the banquet?

V..."

Thanks for sharing these findings, Tom. They surely provide more down-to-earth hypotheses than the "It's because of Juno's benevolence" idea...

Still on wealth and Book 1: I have not done any research into this, but I would assume Virgil had some familiarity with display of status and wealth in his role as courtier / poet of Augustus.

Quickly reading about the Roman economy at the time of Augustus on Wikipedia, it turns out that Augustus engaged in "massive public and private spending". Perhaps that's what inspired Vergil in writing about Dido's wealth and uses of it.

Kyle wrote: "tom wrote: "A few remarks on what we learn of Aeneas as a character during Book 1:"

Helpful insights. As one still not really used to reading through poetry, there were definitely parts of this, t..."

I can share my personal experience as an Italian born in the 80s who attended a very Italian sort of high school called 'liceo classico', where people study both ancient Greek and Latin for 5 years...

We encountered the Aeneid, alongside a more general course on mythology, in our first year of high school, we were 14y old.

But of course Italy and its liceo classico and their relationship to the Aeneid are hard to generalise. I would be very glad to hear other experiences from USA and other countries

From Book XX of the Iliad, where Aeneas is about to be killed by Achilles. Poseidon says:

"Why should blameless Aeneas suffer so
on others' behalf after all the prayers
and gifts he has sent us gods who hold the skies?
We should lead Aeneas away from death,
because Zeus will be furious if Achilles
kills him now. Aeneas' fate is to live
in order to save the last lineage and stock
of Dardanus, a favorite among the sons
that mortal tempresses have borne to Zeus. 20.297

Poseidon then clouds Achilles' vision and spirits Aeneas away to safety.

Savino wrote: "Kyle wrote: "tom wrote: "A few remarks on what we learn of Aeneas as a character during Book 1:"

Helpful insights. As one still not really used to reading through poetry, there were definitely par..."

I went through high school and undergrad in the United States without ever reading Homer or Virgil. I later did a master's degree in literature, in which the Aeneid was required reading as a prerequisite in advance of a course on medieval literature.

For me, I became fascinated by the Aeneid by reading medieval authors who loved, loved Virgil (esp. Dante and Chaucer). So that was the beginning of my relationship with Virgil--I couldn't really, truly appreciate Dante or Chaucer until I understood what Virgil meant to them.

Thomas wrote: "From Book XX of the Iliad, where Aeneas is about to be killed by Achilles. Poseidon says:

"Why should blameless Aeneas suffer so
on others' behalf after all the prayers
and gifts he has sent us ..."

Yes, it is Book XX. Don't know why I said Book XII.

Susan said [msg 14]One difference between Aeneas and Odysseus that strikes me is that Aeneas tells the truth about who he is to Dido while Odysseus always seems to have a factually untruthful story....

Ah, but does Virgil tell the truth to the reader, hmm? Seems he invented the whole Dido thing to justify the Punic Wars against Carthage. 264 BCE -146 BCE.

Carthaginians were descended from Phoenicians (the city of Tyre,)

Dido or not, Carthage was the most powerful city on The Med:
"Prior to the conflict, Carthage had grown from a small port-of-call to the richest and most powerful city in the Mediterranean region before 260 BCE. She had a powerful navy, a mercenary army and, through tribute, tariffs, and trade, enough wealth to do as she pleased."

When the Romans finished off the Carthaginians they destroyed the city, turned it into rubble.

I have a gnawing question about the Romans or "Latins". The area they landed was called Latium, and there was a village called Latium founded by a small tribe from the North, the Latini. Where did they get their name?

We have all these Latinate languages, and Romanticism too, but where from is this word "Latin"? They weren't really Latini, they took over the town , they were Trojans, no? So they adopted this whole line of descent.

Was it even Etruscan land they took? So here these immigrants come take over and push the original settlers out (who probably pushed someone else out). This is like a white supremacist's fable of what happens when you let the immigrants in.

This was a deep concern of the Brits going waay back, and why they pushed the Aeneid in schools?
And that was before WW1.0. In the 19th Century the Brits modeled their educational system after the German, and where they got their classics, and Romanticism (which overthrew the Enlightenment). I have mixed all this in rather clumsily and hope to clarify it a bit more as we go on.

I ordered the Shadi Bartsch translation after I heard her podcast and she explains a lot of what we are asking (link is back a few messages).

In reading Book 1, I was struck by the number of times some form of Aeneas's story fleeing Troy is told. First in the opening lines (in medias res as Mike noted above), then in a truncated form between Aeneas and his mother Venus disguised as a girl (who would already know the story, being a goddess), and then again to Dido towards the end. All this to set up a longer telling of the Trojan War in Books 2 and 3? Was this a common technique in epic poetry of the time?

And on the question of whether The Aeneid is commonly taught in high school or college, that certainly wasn't my (American) experience. We went through the Iliad in high school, and I read the Odyssey on my own, and in college as an English major it was - truly - just English literature, starting with Chaucer. The high school Advanced Placement Latin course does cover the Aeneid and Julius Caesar's Gallic War, but it's not a commonly offered course (and as an aside, there used to be a separate AP Latin Literature course, but it was discontinued in 2009 due to low volume. Now there's just AP Latin).

I just finished reading the first book. I found it quite moving actually.

As you say Thomas, he is a different kind of hero.

tom, I like that you point out that he shows emotion openly; I noticed that as well. He definitely does seem more "human," and like you, Monica, this does appeal to my preferences.

I was intrigued by the part that tom pointed out in book 1 where Aeneas inspects the story of Troy as carved on the walls of Dido's city. It fascinated me on two levels:

First, I see Aeneas as introspective here, much more so than what I was used to in the Odyssey and the Iliad. He looks upon these images of what he experienced in Troy and feels a great welling up of emotion and regret.

Second, this moment is self-reflexive in a way that feels quite modern. Here within Virgil's work of art that tells Aeneas' story, his main hero Aeneas looks upon works of art that depict his own story and is moved by them.

I am imagining this artwork as either stone carvings or metalwork - do any of the other translations make this clear? In Fitzgerald's it is not clear. Perhaps they are worked onto the "brazen lintel" or "bronze doors," or perhaps not.

I love the image of the Achaeans, the Amazons and Penthesilea in this artwork that Aeneas observes:

lines 665-672:

        "He himself he saw
In combat with the first of the Achaeans,
And saw the ranks of Dawn, black Memnon's arms;
Then, leading the battalion of Amazons
With half-moon shields, he saw Penthesilea
Fiery amid her host, buckling a golden
Girdle beneath her bare and arrogant breast,
A girl who dared to fight men, a warrior queen."

There are quite a few instances of powerful women: the goddesses Juno and Venus, the Amazons and Penthesilea, as well as Queen Dido herself. I noticed this too, and I am not sure why, but I do find it intriguing.

I have a question for those who are better versed in writings of antiquity. In the latter part of book 1 where Venus causes Aeneas' son Ascanius to be drugged to sleep and spirited away, she sends down "Desire" or "Amor" to impersonate him and enthrall Dido. But then, in a few lines, it refers to "Desire" as taking the form of Iulus instead.

lines 940-942: "Amor / Agreed with his fond mother's plan of action, / Put off his wings and gaily walked as Iulus."

lines 968-969:: "... admired / Iulus with his godling's face aglow"

But other times, "Desire" is clearly described as having taken the form of Aeneas' son Ascanius:

lines 926-928 and line 934-935: "The boy prince, my greatest / Care in the world, must go now to the city, / Summoned by his father, taking gifts . . . . You counterfeit his figure for one night, / No more, and make the boy's known face your mask . . . ."

So what is the distinction between Ascanius and Iulus? Is Iulus another son of Aeneas'? Or are they just two different ways of naming the same person? That was the one part of the story where I felt a little confused.

Greg wrote: "II am imagining this artwork as either stone carvings or metalwork - do any of the other translations make this clear? ."

The technical term for this is ekphrasis, an extended literary description of an object, usually a work of art. Ruden's translation reads "painted" [on the walls of the temple]. But the prototype for this kind of imagery is the shield of Achilles in the Iliad, so thinking that it is metalwork is not far off at all.

In the latter part of book 1 where Venus causes Aeneas' son Ascanius to be drugged to sleep and spirited away, she sends down "Desire" or "Amor" to impersonate him and enthrall Dido. But then, in a few lines, it refers to "Desire" as taking the form of Iulus instead.

This is Cupid, who personifies Love or Desire to the point that the names become interchangeable. Interestingly, Cupid is the son of Venus, making him Aeneas' half-brother. Here Cupid is switched out for Ascanius (who is also called Iulus) so that he can work his magic on Dido and "trap the queen in fire."

Iulus/Ascanius is the founder of the Julian line, which included Julius Caesar. Jupiter briefly tells the history of Rome when he opens up "fate's secret book" to Venus at line 263:

In Italy your son (Aeneas) will crush a fierce race
in a great war. With the Rutulians beaten,
Three winters and three summers he'll shape walls
and warrior customs, as he reigns in Latium.
But his son Ascanius, now called Iulus too
(He was names Ilus during Ilium's empire),
Will rule while thirty spacious years encircle
Their circling months, and he will move the kingdom
To Alba Longa, heaving up strong ramparts.
Three centuries the dynasty of Hector
Will govern, until Ilia, royal priestess,
Conceives twin boys by Mars and gives them birth.
And the wolf's nursling (glad to wear brown wolfskin),
Romulus, will then lead the race adn found
The walls of Mars for Romans -- named for him.
For them I will not limit time or space.
Their rule will have no end.

So - Aeneas rules three years, Ascanius/Iulus will rule 30 years, their Trojan descendants will rule 300 years, and then Romulus is born, after which the Romans will rule forever.

Good questions! I'm particularly interested in how the gods personify emotions like love and war. Are the gods archetypes for human forces, and can we read mythology that way, or is that reading too much psychology into their religion?

Thomas wrote: "The technical term for this is ekphrasis, an extended literar..."

Thanks so much Thomas! I appreciate the extra information, on everything from the Ruden translation to the Julian line! I have read only some of the most famous Greek and Roman works (Homer, Sophocles, Herodotus, ..), and much is new to me.

I had guessed that Desire and Amor represented Cupid, but it helps a lot to know that Iulus and Ascanius were different names for the same person!

Also, although I figured out from text that the Trojans were the forbears of the Romans in some manner, I had no idea of the different rulers or how they were ordered (or the connection to Julius Ceasar for that matter). Your context definitely helps clarify things in my mind.

Thomas wrote: "I'm particularly interested in how the gods personify emotions like love and war. Are the gods archetypes for human forces, and can we read mythology that way, or is that reading too much psychology into their religion?."

One thing that struck me upon reading the first book today is that the gods often behave in a more stereotypically human manner than the human or half-human characters themselves. In just this first book, we see gods acting out of pettiness, anger, protectiveness, jealousy, capriciousness . . . pretty much every basic human emotion.

I don't know if they can be read as personifications of human forces or not, but certainly in the way Greek and Roman poets often imagine them, they reflect a great deal about human behavior and the human condition.

Greg wrote: "in college as an English major it was - truly - just English literature, starting with Chaucer."

After studying classical literature on my own for a couple of years, this is one of the reasons I'm not sorry I missed out on college. I didn't go (or finish high school the normal way) because I couldn't learn in a classroom setting. I wouldn't have wanted an English degree focused on just one area of literature, though. I would have missed out on so much!

How do you even properly appreciate English literature without studying classical first? My whole understanding of Shakespeare changed.

Thomas wrote: "Greg wrote: "II am imagining this artwork as either stone carvings or metalwork - do any of the other translations make this clear? ."

The technical term for this is ekphrasis, an extended literar..."

I am reading the latin text and all we have is "videt Iliacas ex ordine pugnas" - meaning "[Aeneas] sees the Trojan fights one after another". Vergil is not specifying the "medium", it could be painting, metalwork etc. For me, Aeneas is seeing a mosaic.
IWhat I mean is something like the Zliten Mosaic, 2nd century AD, Roman Lybia:

It has been noted before that the gods in the classical epics behave like people and the people behave like gods.

I see the gods as embodiments of one particular trait or passion: Mars is war, Venus is love, and so forth. Also I must say paganism makes sense to me in an intuitive way that monotheistic religions don't. How could one god be responsible for everything when they are so conflicting? How could one god maintain both love and hate, creation and destruction? Clearly as human beings we are exposed to many forces that contend with one another, so they must be the creation of different gods.

Donnally wrote: "I see the gods as embodiments of one particular trait or passion: Mars is war, Ven..."

That makes sense, but do you think this is the way people from antiquity saw it?

I have always imagined that people in antiquity saw their gods something along the lines of Catholics in older times relating to Catholic saints. There are certain gods that were primarily prayed to for certain sorts of things because those gods (or saints) watched over those things (praying to Mars for victory in war along the lines of praying to Saint Anthony to find something lost). And then cities chose gods as patrons to pray to for protection, etc; so certain gods had special connections to certain areas.

Each the gods seems capable of a full range of emotions, not only the one they are named for. Most of them at one time or another fall in love or are amorous. Most of them at some point are jealous, capricious, vindictive, etc.

One other thing in book one that I was curious about and wanted to ask:

Early on in the book, Juno says that the Trojans are "transporting Ilium with her household gods . . . to Italy" (lines 95-96). I assume the household gods are their Lares? Do you suppose these household gods are transporting with them in spirit only, or is she also referring to protective figures that were believed to connect with them? And if they were transporting physical things as well as a supernatural ones, what would be the consequences for the Trojans if the ships that were holding those went down or were lost? I assume that would be considered a great tragedy to the whole people?

I'm sure most of you have read much more writings from antiquity than me. Can someone shed some more light on some of these aspects of the household gods? I pretty much only know what I could garner from Wikipedia and the web. Thanks!

the term in the latin text is "Penates"

Virgil was referring to the already existing tradition of the sacred objects rescued by Aeneas from Troy and carried by him to Italy. I see this tradition as a metaphor for the Hellenization of the Roman culture.

Re the images Aeneas sees in the temple, the Dryden translation also describes them as painted:
“He saw, in order painted on the wall,
Whatever did unhappy Troy befall:
The wars that fame around the world had blown,
All to the life, and ev’ry leader known.”

Thanks Emil, Susan!

Thanks for the Latin help, Emil! I found this note on Perseus, which may or may not be helpful:

[453] These representations are probably on the doors or external walls of the temple. Comp. the sculptures mentioned G. 3. 26, A. 6. 20. ‘Sub’ then will express that Aeneas is looking up. Heyne discusses in an excursus the question whether these were sculptures or paintings, observing that the former was the only mode of representation known in the Homeric times, and that other poets, such as Val. Fl. 5. 411 foll., Sil. 3. 32 foll., describe similar temples with sculptures; but that the latter is more suited to the language of the present passage, and would be a natural anachronism, paintings on temple-walls or in porticoes being common in later times. There is a similar question about the description of the temple of Delphi in the Ion of Euripides.

Greg wrote: "One other thing in book one that I was curious about and wanted to ask:

Early on in the book, Juno says that the Trojans are "transporting Ilium with her household gods . . . to Italy" (lines 95-9..."

Penates were portable deities. I found a nice picture of Aeneas actually carrying the Penates. I suppose the Penates are the little white character on the back of Aeneas, just under Anchises. They are not mentioned in the picture's title, however. Perhaps they should!

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collect...

PS the Penates here looks a bit like it was a baby Jesus or a small angel...no idea how they actually looked in original

Very interesting, thanks, Savino! I wonder if the relic veneration practised by early Christians is somehow related to the Public Penates. They had the same function and in the middle ages it was unthinkable for a church or a settlement to have no relic.

At some point there were around 20 towns claiming to posess the "Holy Prepuce", Jesus foreskin after the circumcision. If a settlement was conquered, the ones who managed to run away always tried to take the relics with them, just as Aeneas took the Penates.

I'm thinking about the scene where Aeneas meets his disguised mother. When he realise he's talking to his mother, he's telling her: "Quid natum totiens, crudelis tu quoque, falsis
Audis imaginibus". This is outrageous, he's calling her a cruel liar. This is not how a son would talk to his mother and this is definitely not how anyone would talk to one of the most powerful deities. Achilles would never talk like that with his mother Thesis, and she was just a petty sea nymph.
What do you make of this?

Savino wrote: "Penates were portable deities. I found a nice picture of Aeneas actually carrying the Penates. I suppose the Penates are the little white character on the back of Aeneas, just under Anchises. They are not mentioned in the picture's title, however. Perhaps they should!"

Thanks Savino! This is very helpful. I was imagining some sort of figurines or physical items, but I had no idea if this was correct.

I like what you say Emil too about the holy relics. I recall references to this in the Canterbury Tales and other works.

Emil wrote: "I'm thinking about the scene where Aeneas meets his disguised mother. When he realise he's talking to his mother, he's telling her: "Quid natum totiens, crudelis tu quoque, falsis
Audis imaginibus"..."

As a non-expert, I imagined that this was due to exasperation. This is my thinking:

He's more "human" and flawed than a lot of Greek and Roman heroes. When he gives his speech to his shipmates after the storms disperse their ships, he does what's required, but he has to feign hope and faith. He doesn't actually feel it.

(lines 284-286)
"So ran the speech. Burdened and sick at heart,
He feigned hope in his look, and inwardly
Contained his anguish."

It's interesting. In some ways that makes him more sympathetic to me rather than less. He is imaginative and sensitive enough to feel losses keenly and flawed enough to lack proper faith at key moments; yet, at least in this moment, he does what his people need regardless of how he feels. That shows true character.

Anyway, I think he's lashing out at his mother Venus because of these doubts. He has not only suffered the ravages of the battle of Troy but also, as far as he knows at this point, the loss of most of his ships. In his heart, he's doubting the destiny that he has been promised.

(lines 526-530)
"As my immortal mother showed the way.
I followed the given fates. Now barely seven
Ships are left, battered by wind and sea,
And I myself, unknown and unprovisioned,
Cross the Libyan winderness, an exile"

Here, without knowing he is talking to his mother, he is very close to complaining of her. He has followed what she showed him, and still, he suffers disaster after disaster.

Venus must know this doubt in his heart because she tries to assauge him:

(lines 533-534)
"Whoever you are, I doubt Heaven is unfriendly
To you"

But then, suddenly, he realizes he is actually talking to her. He has just been nearly complaining of her and he was talking to her the whole time! His frustration boils over. In the Fitzgerald translation:

(lines 558-560)
     "You! cruel too!
Why tease your son so often with disguises?
Why may we not join hands and speak and hear
The simple truth!"

I imagine that just for a moment he realized what a comfort it would have been for him if she had just told him outright as the goddess Venus that his ships were conclusively safe rather than pretending to be a "Tyrian girl" who might or might not have been correct in her interpretation of the augury of twelve swans that told her his ships were safe.

(lines 542, 545, 547, 549-550)
"See the twelve swans in line rejoicing there! . . .
They seem to be alighting one by one . . .
As they disport themselves, with flapping wings, . . .
Just so your ships and your ships' companies
Are either in port or entering under sail."

But at root, the frustration is strengthened by the doubts in his heart. He is not a stolid hero but an emotional one.

Greg wrote: "He is not a stolid hero but an emotional one...."

Right you are! He is her mother's son, after all!

I like your explanation and I also think this vulnerability makes Aeneas more likable than Achilles or Ulysses for example.

Emil wrote: "I also think this vulnerability makes Aeneas more likable than Achilles or Ulysses for example"

I feel that way too Emil. And thanks!

I quite enjoyed the first book and am glad to finally be reading it!

Savino wrote: "Penates were portable deities. I found a nice picture of Aeneas actually carrying the Penates..."

There's a beautiful statue by Bernini of Aeneas carrying his father who is carrying the Penates. It is in the Galleria Borghese in Rome. I saw it a few years ago when I was on holiday in Italy. It is quite breathtaking.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...

Some questions: Why is Juno is so harsh on the Trojans? an explanation given is that Ajax, a Greek, has raped Cassandra? Someone explains Juno punishes the Trojans by sinking their ships?
Well it could be Pallas (Athene?) or Minerva because it happened in a Minerva-ish temple?

Larger Question. About "Races". Do they have the same meaning as today? Aeneas and his people will be of the Latin "race" because they have captured Latinium (or is it Latium). (They have expelled the indigenous tribe the Latini).
Then the Phoenicians, are they a racial "type". Then would the Greeks be the Greek "race". and the Trojans another race until they become Latins? And are the Etruscans still another Race? Is this because they all come from different "Barbarian" tribes, like The Scythians? Would we call these "racial" conflicts? I read that Memnon are "Blacks" from Ethiopia. And the Amazons?

Tamara wrote: "Savino wrote: "Penates were portable deities. I found a nice picture of Aeneas actually carrying the Penates..."

There's a beautiful statue by Bernini of Aeneas carrying his father who is carrying..."

Wow Tamara, that statue is exquisite!

Tamara wrote: "Savino wrote: "Penates were portable deities. I found a nice picture of Aeneas actually carrying the Penates..."

There's a beautiful statue by Bernini of Aeneas carrying his father who is carrying..."

That is remarkable sculpture. I also visited the Borghesa. There was so much there, I did not pick out Aeneas.

Building on Sam's question, I was a little confused by that too. There are a lot of different peoples mentioned. The Amazons I was familiar with from other works. But a lot of the others I wasn't sure. I didn't even notice the mention of the Etruscans.

But as I read, I kept some crib notes to try to keep straight who was who, and this is what I guessed from context in the terms in the FItzgerald translation, but I am definitely not sure.

There are the Trojans (= the Teucrians).

Then there are the Tyrians (@ Tyre) where Dido's brother Pygmalion ruled (still rules?). Dido fled from there and now is in a new city.

The Phoenicians is a larger term for the inhabitants of the Phoenician city states which also includes Tyre.

Carthage is another Phoenician city state (of which the people are the Carthaginians).

The book I am reading has endnotes but no footnotes. I kind of wish it had footnotes actually so I didn't have to flip back and forth so much.

Have I got things straight? And if so, I also am wondering the answer to Sam's question as well. Are there three different and distinct races or peoples being mentioned here in addition to the Etruscans, Amazons, and Memnon?

1. The Trojans (Teucrians) whose future descendent Romulus founded Rome.
2. The Phoenicians (including the Tyrians, Carthiginians, . . .)
3. The Grecians.