The Catholic Book Club discussion

1. Use this thread to share your thoughts while reading, or to discuss other issues not addressed in another question.

Cardinal Sarah cites Cardinal Ratzinger who “To illustrate the situation of the Church in the contemporary world, he evoked the image of the neo-Gothic cathedral in New York City, surrounded and dwarfed by iron giants, the skyscrapers.” (p. 33)

Yes, indeed, the St. Patrick’s Cathedral was not easy to distinguish among the huge towers when I first looked for it. But I found something along this line of disparaging a house of God—perhaps worse--in Ottawa. The neo-Gothic Notre Dame Cathedral Basilica (completed in 1846) has directly across the avenue from it—Sussex Drive and St. Patrick Street—a sculpture of a giant iron black spider, an abominable construction (installed in 1999), a shocking sight. It is huge, 30 feet high and 33 feet wide. It fronts a museum National Gallery of Canada. It was put there at a cost of $3,200,000 and given a name even of “Maman” which obviously suggests Biblical Mammon. If this is not a direct attack of ugly modernity faking art and despising the Church, I know not what else is the intention of the sponsors. Wikipedia has a combined photo of both here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maman_(... 1
but a better photograph of the Cathedral Basilica is in my profile photos (photo #10).

Yes, that sculpture is so ugly! However, the artist named it "Maman" in honour of her own mother, who was a weaver like a spider. I think the museum wanted to put it there attract attention to the museum since it was such an expensive piece, I don't think any of it was with malicious intent (Although I also wouldn't put it past them). If anything, for me the ugliness of the modern art juxtaposes with the beauty of the Church and makes the Church stand out even more in my eyes. Ugly modern art is a symptom of our relativist society, that was made abundantly clear to me in my aesthetics of music course where everyone refused to give beauty any sort of objective meaning, whereas we know that beauty should give glory to God.

Cassandra wrote: "Yes, that sculpture is so ugly! ..."

Thank you for your informative comments. I give modern art a chance but like to devote more free time to music. We have a modern art museum in the area where we live, Dia Beacon. I took a relative to visit it with me twice. She told me not to take her to it again. The nature outside in the Hudson Valley is far more inspiring.

Cardinal Sarah affirms this feeling further on: “I am struck by modern man’s talent for making everything he touches ugly. Look at outer space: the images of the planets and the stars are captivatingly beautiful. Everything in its place. The order of the universe breathes peace. Look at the world, the mountains, the rivers, the landscapes: everything breathes a tranquil beauty . . .But look at what the modern world makes!” (p. 200)

He is not speaking about what modern man makes and calls “art” here having just finished writing about the history of African slavery, German death camps, and the Russian gulag but it’s probably not stretching his intention to include it.

I'd forgotten what a good writer Sarah is, so many memorable lines. Can you add a "favorite quotes" question?

Have there been actual instances of Bishops' conferences contradicting each other?

Are our contemporaries afraid of God or just indifferent to Him? I love the appeal he makes, that we dare to look at Jesus and see Him looking at us--and see ourselves reflected in his eyes.

He identifies God's "absence" as the deepest cause of human suffering without shrinking from meeting Christ's basic needs in his poorest.

Interesting insight that reverence for God grounds respect/courtesy toward his creatures.

Jill wrote: "Have there been actual instances of Bishops' conferences contradicting each other?"

The German bishops have contradicted Catholic doctrine by asking for a change in Church teaching on sexuality, to make it similar to what the world accepts today, such as homosexual marriage, remarriage of divorced people, and so on. I suppose this is what Sarah means in this point in the introduction.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/ne...

Aagh!

Manuel wrote: "Jill wrote: "Have there been actual instances of Bishops' conferences contradicting each other?"

The German bishops have contradicted Catholic doctrine by asking for a change in Church teaching on..."

This is frightening information. I am glad it is not the whole Catholic world that is accepting it. Unfortunately Western Europe in the EU is putting great financial and other pressures on some member countries that do not go along with their paganism.

Galicius wrote: "Unfortunately Western Europe in the EU is putting great financial and other pressures on some member countries that do not go along with their paganism."

Namely Poland and Hungary.

The Visegrad group, although the two most relevant groups as the Professor said are Poland and Hungary.

Thank you gentlemen, Manuel and Fonch. Cardinal Sarah does acknowledge the Visegrad Group countries: “. . . that refuse to get lost in this mad rush get stigmatized, sometimes even insulted.” (p. 243). That includes Poland, Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic.

interesting statement by Ratzinger in chapter 3 that the Church is not democratic but sacramental and consequently hierarchical

and that the heart of what's needed is to re-experience God

and that our "ministry" is to stand at the foot of the cross with John and Mary

I didn't know that everyone exits Eastern churches backward, still facing the altar.

I don't understand why the orientation of churches toward the east matters. Christ came from the Father, not from the "East." Bethlehem happens to be east of us, but not of Christians in India.

One of my pet peeves, with which he agrees, is having lay ministers distribute communion when an "ordinary" minister is in the congregation, so to speak incognito.

Well i have concluded this book and i only can say one thing that it is until this moment the best book of the year. It will be really difficult that i can find a best book than "Day far spent". This book has absolutely all.

Opposing transhumanism is tricky; where do you draw the line? Clearly we shouldn't be tinkering with human genetics by somehow incorporating artificial intelligence, but would it be wrong to remove genetic diseases/disabilities?

Jill wrote: "Opposing transhumanism is tricky; where do you draw the line? Clearly we shouldn't be tinkering with human genetics by somehow incorporating artificial intelligence, but would it be wrong to remove genetic diseases/disabilities?"

Transhumanism is rather more than just gene therapy. It's based on the false assertion that technology grows exponentially, and concludes than in the course of a human life we'll achieve physical immortality, total control of the world, and perfect manipulation of the genes and minds of our descendants. In fact, it's a very ancient temptation: You will be like God.

C.S. Lewis warned in The Abolition of Man that control of the world is a euphemism for "control of some men by others" (for instance, control of our own descendants).

I have written in several places against transhumanism. For instance: https://populscience.blogspot.com/201... and https://populscience.blogspot.com/202... and https://populscience.blogspot.com/201...

The chapter about the priesthood is beautiful.

The interesting starts after this chapter. The book is making more deep and prophetical. A serious warning for the western civilization especially Europe.

I have heard complaints aplenty from West European countries about the refusal of foreign immigrants, particularly Islamists to integrate into their new societies and instead fostering radical Islam. What are the Moslems going to assimilate into when their West European environment is in such a spiritual crisis, rejected its Christian heritage and history and God’s presence in public life? Cardinal Ratzinger described that society as “completely neutral with regard to values.” The young immigrants who arrived in Europe, Cardinal Sarah tells us are “driven to despair by European nihilism, they throw themselves into the embrace of radical Islamism . . .can anyone imagine that they would not be offended upon arriving in European countries where senseless paganism reigns?” (p. 246)

This is the problem, although we must be sincere. The islam is a religion which is spread employing the sword.

Fonch wrote: "This is the problem, although we must be sincere. The islam is a religion which is spread employing the sword."

You are absolutely right. We discussed Hilaire Belloc's "The Great Heresies" where he makes it clear what Islam is and how it works.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5...

When the Cardinal Sarah wrote about the nihilism of the western Society and the Yihadism did not like very much the second option, even being evil the first he looks very worried for the second option. He feels comfortable with the sufism muslim.

I am reffering about the muslims are sufists not that Sarah was sufist. My comment might have been misunderstood and in this ocassion would be my Charge.

Is globalization necessarily evil? Couldn't it lead to greater appreciation of the variety in human cultures rather than a push toward uniformity?
Couldn't democracy or representative government endure without the underpinnings of Christianity that birthed it? Can't it be spread without bloodshed?
Can't we envision a world government that isn't beholden to wealth and power?
Sure, there will always be inequities, but isn't it just to work against them?

Jill wrote: "Is globalization necessarily evil? Couldn't it lead to greater appreciation of the variety in human cultures rather than a push toward uniformity?"

This post in my blog comments about the evils of globalization, contrasted with a parallel concept (mundialization):
https://populscience.blogspot.com/201...

Jill wrote: "Couldn't democracy or representative government endure without the underpinnings of Christianity that birthed it?"

My simple answer to this question is "No." Explanation:
https://populscience.blogspot.com/201...

Jill wrote: "Sure, there will always be inequities, but isn't it just to work against them?"

Yes, in principle, but one must state clearly which inequity one is fighting. Because there are several, and they are usually contradictory. See this post in my blog:
https://populscience.blogspot.com/201...

Jill wrote: "Can't we envision a world government that isn't beholden to wealth and power?"

Yes, one, the one that will have Jesus as its direct ruler - any other world government will inevitably be a hellscape of oppression governed indirectly by Satan. Human beings are fallen and any power structure will attract those attracted to power - i.e., the ability to force others to their will.

How would you envision a world government that could accommodate the authoritarianism of Putin's Russia, the genocidal corporate communism of Xi's China and the welfare authoritarianism that the Western aging democracies are limping towards?

John wrote: "Jill wrote: "Can't we envision a world government that isn't beholden to wealth and power?"

Yes, one, the one that will have Jesus as its direct ruler - any other world government will inevitably ..."

Right! And here are my impressions about this subject:
https://populscience.blogspot.com/202...

Good comments all: John, Manuel, Jill. There have been plenty of Utopias proposed already that come to naught, Saint Thomas Moore even. I just read an essay by a Jesuit Robert Nash with a message that is essentially what John wrote above:

“The Ten Commandments, even on quite natural grounds, are framed by the author of our nature with a view to running the human machine in the most effective manner.

“Think what a revolution there would be in human affairs if even one of the Commandments was kept perfectly for single year. Suppose that everyone observed the Seventh Commandment, what would happen? You could immediately cast aside all locks and keys.

“Suppose that even portion of the Eighth Commandment was kept in the same way. Suppose that every man always told the truth. The mind reels while it begins to think out the happy results that must follow.

In ch. 14 he says in order to (re)establish an authentic culture, we have to know what sort of humanity we want to establish. That reminds me of an excellent panel on bioethics I tuned into this week, from Notre Dame's McGrath Center. Carter Snead, the attorney on the panel, said we need to analyze our laws to see on what concept of human being they are founded. Contemporary laws are based on expressive individualism, freedom for a person to be/do whatever he chooses. This ignores not only the fact that we are made in the image of God, but also the reality of our embodiment (not an exclusively Christian concept), which makes us contingent, dependent and made for relationship.

What happened in May 1968 that was so significant?

He aptly points out that it's better for one generation to receive and build on than to be exhausted by having to reinvent.

In May 1968 in France there were riots by university students, later joined by workers in a general strike. The protests extended also to other European countries. As a consequence Charles de Gaulle called for early elections and lost, and many labor reforms followed, as well as a change of the university system and regional administration in France.

It coincided in time with the hippy movement and the sexual revolution that was already happening in the US, so in Europe they have also been associated to May 68.

Thank you, Mariangel. That doesn't sound so cataclysmic.

Is there a result of the March voting?

Mariangel wrote: "In May 1968... As a consequence Charles de Gaulle called for early elections and lost..."

A single correction: De Gaulle won the elections. Even so, May 68 is considered to have changed Europe and as the beginning of the down-slide towards what we have now.

Jill wrote: "Is there a result of the March voting?"

Here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

About it is commented by Galicius. There is a book of the italian writer Rino Cammilleri, which comments, all utopies which has failed besides a future utopy. The book would be Monsters of the Reason unfortunatelly it was not translated to English.

Jill wrote: "That doesn't sound so cataclysmic."

It was. May'68 was the beginning in Europe of what we have now. Its effects were similar to those of July'1789, the beginning of the French Revolution. And as Mariangel says, it actually started in the US. It emerged from the theories of Herbert Marcuse and from the hippy movement. Its bedside book was Robert Heinlein's SciFi novel "Stranger in a strange land."

I love the story he shared about the bishop who became concerned about the shortage of priests in his diocese and so he announced he would do a monthly pilgrimage on foot to a Marian Shrine. And now his seminary is overflowing.

In Chapter 3, Cardinal Sarah criticizes Christians who see their bishops as "nothing more than men seeking power." Perhaps that would be less common if there were not so many of them who didn't appear to be anything more than that. I do take his point that we should not be angry with these men, or perhaps, be angry, but tempered with Christian love? And I know this is not new. It was St. Chrysostom who is reported as having said: "The road to hell is paved with the bones of priests and monks, and the skulls of bishops are the lampposts that light the path."

I don't think democratic liberalism promises anything about man's salvation or perfection; it's just a way to organize our common life. Why can't we agree to respect each person's freedom to practice religion, not just privately but in how he votes, acts...as long as he's not harming others? I guess there are problematic points, e.g. Satanists who claim abortion is a religious ritual!

lovely image in ch. 17 of the sculptor "freeing" the reality by chipping away what obscures/hampers it

Jill wrote, "I guess there are problematic points, e.g. Satanists who claim abortion is a religious ritual!"
Remember that the Old Testament pagan rituals including the sacrifice of babies to Baal, Moloch, and others. I've often heard comparisons that those who favor abortion are carrying on those demonic practices from the Old Testament times.

Madeleine wrote: "Jill wrote, "I guess there are problematic points, e.g. Satanists who claim abortion is a religious ritual!"
Remember that the Old Testament pagan rituals including the sacrifice of babies to Baal..."

I have even heard that the abortion iot would be a desecration of the Eucharist. It would be a reverse ceremony a mock of something sacred.

I read it slowly and there are many phrases I liked, often already cited by other club members.

Here is my review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

At this moment this is the Best book that i have read this year.

I finished the book one day late :-) This is my review:
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Tomorrow i Hung my review i read one year and three months ago 😊.

I downgraded this writing because of the Cardinal’s claim that Putin sent Russian forces to Syria to support Christians. We now find out that what the Russians did there in 2015 was same “butchering” they are doing in Ukraine in 2022 under the same commander General Aleksandr Dvornikov who was called during the Syrian Civil War of 2015 “the butcher of Syria from September 2015 to July 2016. He commanded the destruction of Eastern Aleppo there using unguided bombs.

NPR.org 15 April 2022