Classics and the Western Canon discussion

The fleet finally lands in Italy, and Aeneas heads directly for the Sibyl. According to Vergil, Cumae is the place where Daedalus landed when he escaped imprisonment on Crete. He gave up his wings to Apollo and built a temple there. Daedalus is an inventor, an architect, a creator and solver of riddles and puzzles. Is it significant that Vergil begins this mysterious chapter with Daedalus?

The Sibyl tells Aeneas' future: he has arrived in Italy and his destiny, but he might regret it. War and struggle await him. Aeneas asks to see his father. The prophetess says sure, the road to hell is easy! It's getting out that's hard. To do it, he must pluck the golden bough. But first he must bury one of his comrades, Misenus, who apparently challenged a sea god named Triton to a contest of music and was drowned by the god.

Aeneas does as asked and soon finds the golden bough. He brings it back to the Sibyl, who acts as his guide through the underworld. If you've read Dante's Inferno, you probably find some similarities here, though of course in that poem Vergil is the guide and Dante the follower. There are a number of remarkable images in this passage -- at the entrance there is a huge elm tree, "the roost of lying dreams, which cling beneath each leaf." (To leave the underworld Aeneas passes through the gate of ivory, which "lets spirits send false dreams up toward the sky.") What does it mean that hell is, for Vergil at least, bracketed by symbols of falsehood?

Aeneas meets a number of acquaintances in the Underworld: his helmsman Palinurus, who clears up the prophecy about his death and begs for a decent burial so he may cross the river Styx. Among those who have died of "cruel wasting love," he sees Dido again. She glares at him and nothing more. Why does she not speak? Aeneas sees Deiphobus, who was betrayed by Helen and killed by Odysseus and the Greeks. The judge Rhadamanthus is there as well, putting souls on trial for unexpiated sins and punishing them.

And finally he meets the shade of his father, Anchises. After a warm though ethereal greeting, Anchises explains how reincarnation of souls works ( a curiously Platonic process) in order to foretell the history of Rome. This gives Vergil an opportunity to praise famous Romans and their victories, but his praise is also somewhat cautionary:

Children, don't lose your horror of such warfare,
don't turn your massive strength against your country.
You of the god's stock: take the lead, have mercy!
My son, throw down your weapons! 832

Aeneas returns to the land of the living when Anchises sends him with the Sybil through the gates of sleep. One gate is of ivory, the other horn. As in the Odyssey, the gate of ivory is associated with false dreams, and that is the one Aeneas passes through. What does this mean?

I read the Seamus Heaney translation of Book VI, which he completed shortly before he died. I found it to be beautiful, and full of Heaney's signature phrases, which revel in the sounds of words. Here's a passage chosen in essence at random, where Aeneas sees the river Lethe:

Meanwhile, at the far end of a valley, Aeneas saw
A remote grove, bushy rustling thickets,
And the river Lethe somnolently flowing,
Lapping those peaceful haunts along its banks.

Heaney has always been good at capturing the feel of tangible items like the "bushy rustling thickets." Here's the description of the elm tree at the mouth of the underworld:

"...Right in the middle
Stands an elm, copious, darkly aflutter, old branches
Spread wide like arms, and here, it is said,
False dreams come to roost, clinging together
On the undersides of the leaves."

Again, I appreciate the rich sounds combined with the lightly-personified description. Pretty much the whole of Book VI has this kind of richness in Heaney's translation.

It's definitely been a while, but parts of Book VI definitely reminded me of Inferno.

Tom is right, some of the language in here is just gorgeous.

Just a personal aside, I've been to Cumae, and Avernus, walked on the solidified lava, did not enter Hades.

What are "false dreams"? How do you understan that term?

Sinisa wrote: "What are "false dreams"? How do you understan that term?"

This is one of the great mysteries of the Aeneid, and a fascinating one.

In Book XIX of the Odyssey, Penelope tells Odysseus (in disguise as a beggar) about a dream she had: she dreamed of 20 geese that were eating grain from her house. An eagle came swooping down and killed all the geese. She is shocked and frightened, but the eagle comes back and tells her that it's not a dream, it's a faithful vision of what is actually going to happen when Odysseus returns and kills the suitors. Then she wakes up and sees the geese in her household, eating grain like normal.

Odysseus (still in disguise) tells her that the eagle in her dream was right, and that is what is going to happen: Odysseus is going to return and destroy the suitors.

Penelope is not so sure. She says,

"Stranger, dreams speak a baffling language that's impossible to understand, and by no means do they all come true for human beings. There are two gates these flimsy dreams pass through; one is made of horn and the other of ivory. And of these two kinds, those that come through the gate of sawn ivory are the ones that are full of trickery, carrying messsages that go unfulfilled. But those that come through the doorway made of polished horn are the ones that come true for any mortals who see them. But I'm afraid the latter is not the place my odd dream came from..." (19.560)

When the Sibyl escorts Aeneas from the underworld she sends him through the gate of ivory, the one that "lets spirits send false dreams up towards the sky."

In Homer's story, the gates are what allow dreams to come into the world; in Vergil's story the gate allow dreams out. Is the implication that Aeneas is dreaming, or that Aeneas is himself a dream? (And not a true one at that?)

Wow that is amazing. I like the idea that Aeneas is himself a false dream. Maybe all Imperial dreams are false dreams.

During the part of connecting with the history of Rome, to me, it felt a little awkward and intrusive into the story, almost jarring. Anybody else, or just me?

Are you asking about Aenea's visit to Hades? That could not be intrusive into the story because Virgil is making up the story. His purpose is not exactly to tell the history of Rome, it is to invent the myth of the founding of Rome and the Latin race.

Kyle wrote: "During the part of connecting with the history of Rome, to me, it felt a little awkward and intrusive into the story, almost jarring. Anybody else, or just me?"

I can see that it's intrusive in the sense that it's incongruous. Virgil is blending mythical and historical events, a tremendously challenging task, especially when it verges on prophecy with regard to Augustus. He has to present a theory of reincarnation to make it happen, and as interesting as that is, it's not very convincing. It makes the parade of Roman heroes look contrived and slightly obsequious. I think the gate of false dreams is related to this. It seems to me he's sort of hedging his bets this way. Augustus and the future of the Empire was not settled at this point -- if Augustus had failed to "bring another age of gold to Saturn's old realm," maybe future readers would understand it was all just a dream.

Bk 6 becomes Dante's Bk 1., obviously.

There's an argument that Book 6 encompasses all of the Divine Comedy. There's even a purgatory in Book 6. Virgil's underworld appears to be a purification factory, where souls are cleansed before they re-enter the world:

When, on the final day, a life departs,
Not every evil sickness of the body
Wholly withdraws from that poor spirit -- many
Are long grown in, mysteriously ingrained.
So souls are disciplined and pay the price
Of old wrongdoing. Some are splayed, exposed
To hollow winds; a flood submerges some,
Washing out wickedness; fire scorches some pure.
Each bears his own ghost; then a few are sent
To live in broad Elysium's happy fields,
Till time's great circle is completed...

And when time's great circle is completed, souls return to their bodily existence. The idea of re-birth is fascinating to me because the Aeneid itself seems to be a re-birth of the Homeric epics, but in reverse. In passing through the gate of ivory, the exact mid-point of the epic, Aeneas is reborn as well. The next half of the Aeneid will show Aeneas on the offensive, and his model will be Achilles rather than Odysseus.

Thomas wrote: "There's an argument that Book 6 encompasses all of the Divine Comedy. There's even a purgatory in Book 6. Virgil's underworld appears to be a purification factory, where souls are cleansed before t..."

That part of book 6 was fascinating Thomas!

It reminds me a lot of some Buddhist texts where souls go through a process of successive rebirths, with a small number of souls reaching a point of perfection where they can escape the cycle entirely and remain in Elysium.

Of course, the method of obtaining perfection or enlightment is nothing alike, but the cycle itself and the idea of escaping of the cycle seems remarkably similar.

(Line 1005-1007)
". . . the freedom
Of broad Elysium--the few, that is, who'll dwell
In those blessed fields until the end of time."

The rest are cleansed of memory and reborn, presumably again and again.

I just finished Book 6 over the weekend, and this was my favorite part so far. Such a rich description of pagan eschatology and a beautiful mythology! And forgive my stupidity, but I never knew before where the title for The Golden Bough came from. Seems like this must be it!

To me, this portion feels steeped in the knowledge of pagan cults and pagan mysteries - does anyone know how much of this Virgil made up? I wonder how much of this comes from actual pagan religious belief/practice and how much is his invention? It reminds me of Paradise Lost in that way - there is so much that we take for granted culturally in the book that it becomes difficult to separate what is biblical from what was Milton's invention.

I noticed that Aeneas tries to embrace Anchises three times, much as Aeneas tried to grip his wife's wraith three times in doomed Troy. A magic number so often found in fairy tales and myths.

Another question:

Can someone explain to me what happened with Deiphobus? It seems he was married to Helen somehow? Was he married off to Helen after Paris fled or something? I don't understand how it came to this point, although it seems clear that Helen betrayed him during the sack of Troy by hiding his weapons so he was defenseless.

(lines 702-704)
"She, my distinguished wife, moved all my arms
Out of the house--as she had slipped my sword,
My faithful sword, out from beneath my pillow"

Greg wrote: "Can someone explain to me what happened with Deiphobus? It seems he was married to Helen somehow? Was he married off to Helen after Paris fled or something? "

In a lesser known Trojan war epic called "The Little Iliad," Paris is killed by Philoctetes. His brothers Helenus and Deiphobus fight over Helen, and Deiphobus ends up winning her as a "prize." Not such a great prize. Her hiding the weapons seems to be a reversal of what happens in the Odyssey where Telemachus hides the suitors' weapons, leaving them defenseless when Odysseus attacks them.

Odysseus also tries to embrace the shade of his mother three times when he goes to Hades:

Three times I reached for her as my heart prompted me to hold her close, and three times she flitted from my arms like a shadow or a dream...

It's hard to say how much Vergil made up and how much he borrowed, but we can see how much he borrowed from Homer so I tend to think that he was mostly working within the tradition. He seems to be re-forming some things and shaping them for his own purposes.

Thanks for the explanation Thomas!

I hadn't heard of "The Little Illiad" before, but now I'm curious to seek it out!

Greg said, " I never knew before where the title for The Golden Bough came from."

The background of the Golden Bough is somewhat tangled. There is a famous painting by Turner of Aeneas plucking the golden bough (here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...). There was a sanctuary to Diana near the Lake of Nemi. The Lake of Nemi is very close to Rome and is a good deal north of Cumae, so I think Virgil was appropriating a local legend. Archaeologists speculate that the shrine to Diana probably dates from the 6th century BC, and it is mentioned by one Greek traveler as late as the age of the Antonines. There is a myth that it was established by Orestes who, after killing Thoas, King of the Tauric Chersonese (in Crimea) fled here with his sister, bringing the image of Diana.
There was also a shrine to the minor deity Virbius at the lake of Nemi. Virbius was supposedly the Greek hero Hippolytus, a devotee of Artemis (the Greek counterpart of Diana), who was reincarnated by Asclepius at the behest of Diana. We will encounter Virbius a little later in the Aeneid.
Supposedly a runaway slave, if he broke off a branch from a certain holy oak in the grove, had the right to fight the priest of Diana, and if he was victorious, became the new priest. So the bough was considered a symbol of death and renewal. Frazer associates it with the mistletoe.
Anyway, that's probably more than you wanted to know about the golden bough.

Donnally wrote: "Greg said, " I never knew before where the title for The Golden Bough came from."

The background of the Golden Bough is somewhat tangled. There is a famous painting by Turner of Aeneas plucking th..."

Thanks Donnally! I appreciate the background.

I had actually just looked up some about Hippolytus (Virbrius), Asclepius, and Diana this morning after their story was touched upon toward the end of book 7. I finally read book 7 this morning.

The mythology of the runaway slaves and the holy oak is fascinating!

Very recently, I had read exceprts of The Golden Bough as part of the supporting material included for understanding references in The Waste Land. The excerpts included there did touch upon the shrine of Diana and the slaying of the old priest to become the new priest, but they didn't include the portions that must have talked of the holy oak.

I am loving The Aeneid so far, and the extra perspective that you, Thomas, and many others are providing definitely is enriching my experience. Thank you!

I have been thinking about Aeneas as the son of Venus and the half-brother of Eros/Cupid. I wonder if taking the Golden Bough is a tribute to the intellectual virtues represented by Diana, as opposed to the erotic nature of his mother. Artemis was a goddess of purity and virginity, the qualities that were so strong in her devotee Hippolytus. If Aeneas's infatuation with the Carthaginian Dido was a product of his erotic side then when he plucks the Golden Bough, he is turning away from his mother and towards his father, away from the material and towards the spiritual, which will result in the creation of Rome. Since the shrine to Diana that is being referred to would have been familiar to Virgil's contemporaries it doesn't feel like that much of a stretch.
( I seem to keep circling back to Phaedra and Hippolytus) Aeneas meets Virbius, the son of Hippolytus in Book 7.

Donnally wrote: "I have been thinking about Aeneas as the son of Venus and the half-brother of Eros/Cupid. I wonder if taking the Golden Bough is a tribute to the intellectual virtues represented by Diana, as oppos..."

That is interesting, because I take it that Aeneas' ability to seize the Golden Bough is a test -- "it should fall gladly if fate has summoned you". If Aeneas is the "chosen one" then he will be able to pluck the bough. Odysseus isn't tested this way; he just performs the rituals and the shade of Teiresias appears. But Odysseus wants nothing to do with the dead -- he sits on his bed and cries when Circe tells him he has to make the journey to Hades. Aeneas specifically wants to make the descent to see his father, even after he has received the prophecy he needs from the Sybil. In contrast, Odysseus sees the shade of his mother incidentally. But Odysseus has no choice -- he has to go to Hades to get information from Teiresias. Does Aeneas really need to make the trip?

Another couple of parallels, which might just be coincidental: Odysseus sees his mother, Anticlea, in Hades. Odysseus did not know she was dead. She tells him that she died from yearning for him. She sounds a bit like Dido here, which is weird.

"No, it was my yearning for you, my glorious Odysseus, for your shrewd and kindly intelligence, that robbed me of my sweet life."

Those were her words, and as I brooded inwardly upon them, a desire rose in me to embrace the sould of my departed mother. Three times I reached for her as my heart prompted me to hold her close, and three times she flitted from my arms like a shadow or a dream... 12.203

Just as Dido will not speak to Aeneas in Hades, Odysseus also meets someone who will not speak to him: Ajax.

Phaedra is also seen in Hades.

Thomas wrote: "Does Aeneas really need to make the trip?"

It doesn't seem like he does, though he goes because Anchises' image appearing in the heavens specifically asks him to:

(Book V, lines 951-952)
"First, however, visit the underworld
The halls of Dis, and through profound Avernus
Come to meet me, son."

Why is it that Anchises' ghost asks him to go down there, I wonder, given that it is quite perilous?

Maybe to encourage him by showing him his great future descendants? It says in book VI, that all Aeneas is shown there "fires his mind with future glory" (line 1208).

Of course, it is also a welcome excuse for Virgil to talk of all that future glory!

Greg wrote: "Of course, it is also a welcome excuse for Virgil to talk of all that future glory!."

Thanks Greg. I think you're right. After all, why does Anchises need Aeneas to visit him in the underworld if he is able to communicate with him in the living world?