Classics and the Western Canon discussion

By now you may have noticed how much of the Aeneid is structured in a "wave" pattern: books of dramatic intensity are followed by more relaxed or ponderous ones. Book Eight is a "trough" in the wave pattern, a calm before the storm. The parties that will be soon at war with each other are preparing for battle, and Vergil takes the time to describe them and their lands in detail. The river god Tiberinus prophesies a victory for Aeneas if he makes an alliance with Evander, leader of the Arcadians (a Greek people).

Evander introduces Aeneas to the life and customs of his people, which includes a rite to Heracles. The description of the special relationship that they have to Heracles is extensive. The myth is that Juno drove Heracles mad and as a result he killed his wife and sons and was forced to perform the "Twelve Labors" as penance. In a way, Juno's wrath is the cause of Heracles' greatness, as well as his suffering. Is there a thematic relationship between Heracles and Aeneas?

Evander at times resembles Anchises; he is old and weak, but he has a strong son in Pallas. When Evander offers Pallas and his forces as an ally for Aeneas, a sign from Venus flashes in the heavens to seal the deal. Aeneas adds that Venus has promised him weapons made by Vulcan. Venus delivers these, and they include a shield for Aeneas that includes an unlikely number of images that tell the story of Rome -- or the future of Rome, up to the time of Augustus. Are these details meant merely to flatter Augustus, or is there something more going on here?

Great questions, Thomas.
I missed any thematic connections between Heracles and Aeneas, however, the details of the shield were truly tremendous, outlining the future.

I find myself missing some of the connections to "present day" Rome, but this seems like the second time there's been an explicit connection. I definitely am starting to get a sense that flattery is a part of Virgil's narrative in this story.

Is there anything to make of Vulcan making Aeneas a shield with the history of Rome on it instead of a weapon?

He makes some other items -- a helmet, greaves, a spear, and a "deadly sword", along with a "blood-red corselet stiff with bronze -- enormous, like a cloud, blue-shaded but kindling with the sky's far-stretching rays," but of course the shield gets the most copy. I suspect this is because the shield of Achilles in Book 18 of the Iliad gets the same treatment. The difference between Aeneas' shield and Achilles is interesting. Achilles' shield depicts the earth and sea, the sun and stars, cities and fields, courts of justice, markets, and dancing scenes, battle scenes, all depictions of the common Greek world. Aeneas' shield is a prediction of things to come, things that no one, not even Aeneas, could possibly recognize as part of their present-day reality.

Maybe having him carry this shield with all of that history upon it is just symbolic of him carrying the future of the great Roman empire with him? It is supposedly through the events related in the Aeneid that all of that future glory becomes possible, through Aeneas' line.

On a separate topic, I found this passage really interesting, where the god Vulcan is compared to something as humble as a poor woman at work on her loom and spindle through the early dark.

(lines 546-551, 556-558)
"When his first repose
Came to an end in the mid-course of night
Now on the wane, and waked him, at that hour
When a poor woman whose hard lot it is
To make a living by her loom and spindle,
Pokes up the embers, wakes the sleeping fire . . . .
At that same hour, no more slothful than she,
The Lord of Fire rose from his soft bed
To labor at the smithy."

I really like the honor and attention payed to these ordinary, hard-working women by Virgil's analogy. Maybe this sort of thing exists in the Homeric epics as well, but if so, I don't recall it.

Thomas wrote: "Aeneas' shield is a prediction of things to come, things that no one, not even Aeneas, could possibly recognize as part of their present-day reality."

And that's exactly where Virgil loses me in these passages, unfortunately. :(

Greg wrote: "I really like the honor and attention paid to these ordinary, hard-working women by Virgil's analogy...."

Is this honor to these women or a comparison of the hard lot of Vulcan to theirs? Despite being the "husband" of Venus, Vulcan has seldom been depicted in particularly flattering tones in my recollection, other than for the sublime beauty of some of his works. In fact, his figure, at least in his Greek origins, deformed from birth, was (cruel) reason for his being disowned by his high royal mother Juno... (Discarded, he was adopted by Thetis, mother of Achilles.)

Greg wrote: "I really like the honor and attention payed to these ordinary, hard-working women by Virgil's analogy. Maybe this sort of thing exists in the Homeric epics as well, but if so, I don't recall it. ."

There is a story in Book 8 of the Odyssey about how Vulcan trapped Venus when she was cheating on him with Mars, and here the opposite happens. Venus uses her feminine wiles to coax Vulcan into forging arms for Aeneas. Vergil seems to be turning the tables on him.

Being compared to a woman who has to work double-shifts and wake up at midnight to support her family might be seen as a little demeaning for the "Lord of Fire." But in Vergil's version, Venus has played Vulcan with her sensuality into doing her bidding. It's a different kind of power, but power nevertheless.

Kyle wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Aeneas' shield is a prediction of things to come, things that no one, not even Aeneas, could possibly recognize as part of their present-day reality."

And that's exactly where Virgil loses me in these passages, unfortunately. :("

It's very weird stuff, but the prototype for it, the shield of Achilles in the Iliad, is also very weird. I think of it as science fiction, before there was such a thing. The shield in the Iliad is like a movie cast in bronze -- it's not frozen in time, but the scenes are actually moving within the shield. It's very bizarre, and hard to top. Vergil does his best by doing the same thing, but in the future, showing things that haven't happened yet. It's pretty daring, but also very odd.

Lily wrote: "Greg wrote: "I really like the honor and attention paid to these ordinary, hard-working women by Virgil's analogy...."

Is this honor to these women or a comparison of the hard lot of Vulcan to th..."

That's interesting Lily! I went back to the text, and I can definitely read it your way. And that's an excellent point about the typical Greek treatment of Vulcan.

But I don't think the woman is described in a demeaning way, and if Virgil wanted to, he certainly could have. She has a hard life for sure, but Virgil writes, "to keep chaste / Her marriage bed and bring her children up." This seems a rather honorable depiction of her motivations actually.

Maybe because of the culture just connecting him to something womanly would be demeaning and bring his estimation lower, but wouldn't it go both ways? Associating this common, hard-working woman with a divine being, no matter how flawed a divine being, would also have the effect of raising her estimation up, no?

Just prior to starting the Aeneid Virgil had composed the Georgics which is all about the struggles of common people to make a living from the land, so I think it was natural for him to think of such a simile.
Hesiod's Works and Days is another example of such an effort in the Greek corpus.

Donnally wrote: "Just prior to starting the Aeneid Virgil had composed the Georgics which is all about the struggles of common people to make a living from the land, so I think it was natural for him to think of su..."

Thanks Donnally; with my woeful knowledge of classics, I had never heard of the Georgics, but that fits with the feeling I've been getting. There's a humaneness I sense in Virgil's book that I really like! Maybe I will look into the Georgics next.

Thanks Lily, Thomas, Donnaly and all. I appreciate the extra perspective the group gives!

Thomas wrote: "It's very weird stuff, but the prototype for it, the shield of Achilles in the Iliad, is also very weird. I think of it as science fiction, before there was such a thing...."

I like your "science fiction" interpretation; it could also apply to the vivid images on the walls of Juno's Temple back in Carthage.


Thomas wrote: ". . . they include a shield for Aeneas that includes an unlikely number of images that tell the story of Rome -- or the future of Rome, up to the time of Augustus. Are these details meant merely to flatter Augustus, or is there something more going on here?...."


I think it's much more than flattery. Aeneid is propaganda literature at its finest and Vergil is using any opportunity to praise Rome and to justify her dominance in the Mediterranean Basin.

When I read of shields in mythology my mind goes first to the Aegis, the shield of Zeus, often borrowed and used by Athena, and is the ultimate symbol of protection. The United States also borrowed it from Zeus in naming its Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System.

As a defensive weapon, the shield is more fitting for Aeneas than an offensive weapon. A shield fits with his reputation as a protector of his people rather than an aggressor for selfish aims of glory and power. Of course the shield is designed to show Roman history, good and bad, culminating in a glorified Augustus; not the martial glory represented in Achilles' shield. I also wonder if it was either Venus or Virgil attempting to outdo the other Greek-centric shields in making an even greater shield for the Romans.

Here is an artistic twist on the shield for Aeneas that just happened upon in another google quest!
https://philamuseum.org/collection/ob...

I find my reactions to it "complicated" or "convoluted", to say the least! Including the comment "The classical subject, which comes from the Aeneid by the Roman poet Virgil, was popular in paintings from the Renaissance onward." I haven't looked for other depictions that might provide other interpretations!

Greg wrote: " Associating this common, hard-working woman with a divine being, no matter how flawed a divine being, would also have the effect of raising her estimation up, no?..."

All part of the great joy, imo, of reading good literature -- the rich complexity of the ideas, the images, the alternative readings. Even while offering clarity and ordering to thought....

Lily wrote: "All part of the great joy, imo, of reading good literature -- the rich complexity of the ideas, the images, the alternative readings. Even while offering clarity and ordering to thought..."

Completely agree! :)

David wrote: "As a defensive weapon, the shield is more fitting for Aeneas than an offensive weapon. A shield fits with his reputation as a protector of his people rather than an aggressor for selfish aims of glory and power. "

Aeneas is in a strange position. He and his Trojans are refugees in one sense, and colonizers in another. He picks up the shield as a burden, he "shoulders" it in the same way he shoulders his father. It's not something he wants to do, or even needs to do (there is no indication, after all, that his father can't walk) but he accepts his duty as a burden. When Venus sends her portents of war (around line 525) they stun everyone except Aeneas. He recognizes them and says:

"Olympus calls me. My immortal mother promised this sign,
a covenant for wartime, and she said she'd bring me weapons
made by Vulcan down through the air.
The slaughter waiting for the poor Laurentians!
The punishment for Turnus! All the helmets, shields,
brave men's bodies rolling in old Tiber!
Let them break treaties, let them have their war."

Let them have their war. That's an odd thing for a warrior to say. It sounds to me like capitulation.

Susanna wrote: "Yes, is there a reason that Vulcan gets such a negative portrayal?..."

Ostensibly, Vulcan was the deformed child of Juno, who attempted to commit filicide. But the child was rescued and adopted by Thetis, the sea nymph favorite of Zeus, and was eventually betrothed to Venus, goddess of beauty and love (also mother of Aeneid via her affair with Anchises). Thetis was also mother of Achilles.

Emil wrote: I think it's much more than flattery. Aeneid is propaganda literature at its finest and Vergil is using any opportunity to praise Rome and to justify her dominance in the Mediterranean Basin.

It is propaganda and it serves the deeper purpose of propaganda which is pedagogical.

I am answering Thomas's question long ago, if in my pursuit of the intertextuality of the Aeneid and Homer's two works the Iliad and The Odyssey, that is the interpenetration of these works, if I could say what is the difference.
That's a pretty big question, and pedagogy is what I deem the answer. Homer's works are stories, great stories, probably the sources of ALL stories, with which Homer meant to Entertain his audiences. They are poems for traveling troubadours to sing to their audiences.
When it comes to The Aenead, critics call it "foundational." What does that mean?
It is meant to tell the story with the purpose of inventing the founding myth of Rome and to teach this to audiences.
The Romans listening to this have just gone through the quintessential transition of their history, becoming The Principate, or The Empire. From Republic to Empire, ruled by an Emperor. They must be taught what that means. They didn't know.

So they must be schooled in The Journey and the struggles of a supposed founder. He must be made concrete in their minds to be The Founder. His struggles with the Gods of natural forces, wind, sea, the traps set by the Gods (Juno). And then he must be victorious in battle. He must face and triumph over human forces, Turnus's army.
All of this is told to create the feeling of being citizens of an Empire.
That is the pedagogical purpose of Vergil's poem. That was NOT Homer's purpose. Homer did teach Vergil what it took to make a story, how to create it.
I have to say I found myself utterly inadequate to really pursue intertextuality very deeply. That is what Classical Scholars do, that's what Classical scholarship is. To practice it one needs thorough knowledge of all three works. I can only find the major points of comparison as we all have been doing. I've used an outline of Odyssey. Not so lucky with Iliad, because the outlines seem as long as the epic.
so I thought what can I do myself, and that was this idea that the overall difference is Vergil's pedagogical purpose compared with Homer's lyrical purpose.
I have been reading Bk 7 and 8 while watching the horror of the war in Ukraine. My comments are more appropriate for Bk 7, so I'll post them under that topic. I can only say here that Vergil's imagery of the Latin wars was intense and overwhelming. I could not hold back my tears.

A theater group in a bomb shelter in Ukraine performed a traditional Ukrainian play based on The Aeneid.

Sam wrote: "A theater group in a bomb shelter in Ukraine performed a traditional Ukrainian play based on The Aeneid."

There's a traditional Ukranian play based on the Aeneid? Who's the author?

It was a quick news clip showing a moment from a scene and no other info.

I googled it. There is such a thing: https://www.academia.edu/9995824/Aene...

thanks. i'll check it out.

That link is to a site that is loaded with Classics material. The play is "Aeneis Among the Cossacks." Reading it now.

Thomas wrote: "It's very weird stuff, but the prototype for it, the shield of Achilles in the Iliad, is also very weird. I think of it as science fiction, before there was such a thing. The shield in the Iliad is like a movie cast in bronze -- it's not frozen in time, but the scenes are actually moving within the shield. It's very bizarre, and hard to top. Vergil does his best by doing the same thing, but in the future, showing things that haven't happened yet. It's pretty daring, but also very odd."

The entire world of the Aeneid is enchanted, so are the Iliad and Odyssey. The entire cosmos presented is both of the seen and unseen, and they intertwine and manifest themselves in myriad of ways. To depict a shield with moving pictures on it is not that far of a stretch.

The fact that we are talking of a shield is significant here. A shield is not merely a piece of physical armor, but a symbol of protection. We even use the word this way, one is shielded from the rain when using an umbrella, etc. The protection is not only physical but also spiritual. The heraldic images of a coat of arms are presented in the form of a shield. These images represent identity but also invoke spiritual powers, the fierceness of a lion, the swiftness of an eagle, etc. Aside from nobility and political entities, bishops and popes of the Catholic Church each have a coat of arms (I don’t know if the Orthodox follow this practice as well). Pope John Paul II put his entire person and his papacy under the protection and mantle of Mary with his motto “Totus Tuus.” In ‘Sir Gawain and the Green Knight’ Sir Gawain has a Marian image on his shield. His entire quest is under the protective mantle of Mary. After long wanderings he finally submits to her, and the sought-for shelter of the castle appears. In other words, shields carry deep symbolism. There is nothing random about them.

Back to the Aeneid. The entire scene is of a symbolic nature. Aeneas is on the banks of the Tiber. The river Tiber and the many expressions thereof became synonymous with Rome. In this scene Aeneas is more than a Trojan hero. He is the embodiment of the future of Rome. He, the man, will survive the coming conflicts if he follows what’s been preordained, and his destiny will be fulfilled far into future generations as shown on the enchanted surface of the shield.