Classics and the Western Canon discussion

Book Ten opens with Jupiter calling a conclave of the gods to discuss the war. He says that in time Carthage will send devastation to Rome anyway, so he would like the gods to "leave off, content." Venus blames Juno for the war and begs for Aeneas to have a long quiet life. (Which strikes me as the opposite of what Achilles chose, a brief but glorious life.) Juno in turn blames Venus: " What made two continents rise up in arms? Did I send out the Trojan lover boy who raided Sparta?" In the end, Jupiter remains neutral, throws up his hands and says "The fates will find their way."

Virgil gives us a catalogue of ships similar to Homer's, after which the nymph ships reappear. Virgil borrows a lot from Homer, but I think the ships that turn into nymphs and back again is his own invention.

The fight begins. The key event is the battle between Pallas and Turnus. Pallas calls on Hercules, who hears him but can do nothing. Jupiter points out to Hercules that his own son, Sarpedon, was killed in the Trojan war, and that all this is a matter of fate. Pallas is killed by Turnus, but Virgil several times says that Turnus will pay for it. (So much for spoilers.)

I'm curious about how the death of Pallas affects Aeneas. He is no longer the hesitant, melancholy Aeneas of Book One, nor the Aeneas who reluctanctly accepts the burden he has been assigned by fate. Turnus at least offers Pallas "the soothing tribute of a burial." After Aeneas kills Tarquitus he offers no such gesture:

Lie there, you menace, so the best of mothers
Can't hide your corpse beneath your father's tomb.
You will be left for crows...

Virgil then compares Aeneas to Briareus, a monstrous giant.

I also find the way in which Juno protects Turnus very inventive. She creates a phantom Aeneas to lead him on, a decoy that that he chases to safety. Turnus is "bewildered and ungrateful to be safe."

The second focal battle of Book 10 is the one in which Aeneas kills Mezentius, who we know from Book 8 is a brutal tyrant. What do we learn about Aeneas from this encounter? Does Aeneas acknowledge the differing characters of the enemies he kills? Is he passing judgement on them individually, or merely fighting to win?

Thomas wrote: "I also find the way in which Juno protects Turnus very inventive. She creates a phantom Aeneas to lead him on, a decoy that that he chases to safety. Turnus is "bewildered and ungrateful to be safe."

I also found this episode not only inventive, but comical in a way. With all of the bloody violence that has so pervaded this text (and especially this particular book), I was a bit surprised when Turnus was dealt with in this particular way by Virgil.

Having never read this before, I wonder if this is the last we'll see of Turnus, or whether he'll turn up again.

Juno begs Jupiter to save Turnus, but he says that Turnus is fated to die. Whether he dies in Book 10 or later, or even off stage, is in Virgil's power to decide. It's a good question why Virgil drags it out. Maybe it's for dramatic reasons, and Turnus has to play his role out to the end.

Juno says a strange thing to Jupiter when she's begging him to spare Turnus:

If your thoughts grant what your words
Deny, if it's ordained that he can live - !
No, either I'm deluded, or he'll die
In unearned pain. I wish my fears deceived me -
Or you'd divert these plans - it's in your power!

Juno wants to believe what she knows is impossible; she wants to believe that her fears are delusions when she knows they aren't. So it's nicely consistent that she deceives Turnus with a phantom, knowing that she is only giving him a temporary reprieve.

Hercules also had some profound words in this Book:

Every man's last day is fixed.
Lifetimes are brief, and not to be regained,
For all mankind. But by their deeds to make
Their fame last: that is labor for the brave.
(Fitzegerald X.650-653)

Virgil keeps on dropping these nuggets of wisdom.

What strikes me most about Hercules here is how powerless he is. He wants to protect Pallas, but he can't. Jupiter says to him that he wasn't able to protect his own son, Sarpedon, during the Trojan War. That is the power of fate.

The conclusion seems to be that the future is already written. Since Virgil is writing about events in the past, this appears to be a justification for the way things are presently: It could be no other way. On the other hand, it raises the question: why bother? If the future is already written, and not even the King of the gods can affect it, why fight?

I am struck by the idea that Virgil may have been conscious of his own mortality when composing the end of The Aeneid, which adds some poignancy to the lines spoken by Hercules.

Another thought about Turnus's survival in Book X is that it's clear Virgil was modeling his poem on the Homeric epics w/ 6 books corresponding to The Odyssey and 6 to The Iliad. If Turnus was killed in Book X, what material would have been left for the last two books?

Thomas wrote: "Does Aeneas acknowledge the differing characters of the enemies he kills? Is he passing judgement on them individually, or merely fighting to win?"

I would say yes, resoundingly so. One point where this comes out most strongly is when Aeneas kills Lausus, the young man who honorably and bravely faces Aeneas to save his father, even though he is hopelessly outmatched.

(lines 1148-1156)
"But seeing the look
On the young man's face in death, a face so pale
As to be awesome, then Anchises' son
Groaned in profound pity. He held out
His hand as filial piety, mirrored here,
Wrung his own heart, and said:
      'O poor young soldier,
How will Aeneas reward your splendid fight?
How honor you, in keeping with your nature?'"

The "in keeping with your nature" is crucial here. Aeneas is moved by Lausus' "filial piety" and treats him very differenly in death than the luckless Tarquitus or Lausus' father Mezentius. He even allows Lausus' family to keep Lausus' arms rather than taking them as spoils of war.

Thomas wrote: "On the other hand, it raises the question: why bother? If the future is already written, and not even the King of the gods can affect it, why fight?."

I suppose from the perspective of the ancients, there is still glory and honor to win before that fated moment of death? And even though that moment where the Fates snip a person's thread of life cannot be averted, the glory that has been won previously still persists:

(lines 652-653)
"But by their deeds to make
Their fame last: that is labor for the brave."

Also, in the fascinating book 6, with it's description of the underworld, there is some pagan eschatology there. It seems that deeds on earth have a huge effect on the afterlife that is lived out afterwards.

What's striking though for me is that there is some injustice even then! Poor Palinurus had to endure some time waiting on the shore since his body had not yet been discovered, though he had done nothing wrong to earn that fate. So it seems that for the ancients, sometimes despite a person's best efforts, they can suffer in the afterlife for capricious reasons. Also, there are numerous people who appear to be suffering there for angering the gods in life, whether the gods' response is just or not.

It's a hard thing.

Donnally wrote: "I am struck by the idea that Virgil may have been conscious of his own mortality when composing the end of The Aeneid, which adds some poignancy to the lines spoken by Hercules."

I like that Donnally, and it rings true for me.

One thing that strikes me about the gods conclave at the beginning of book 10:

By pointing out that the gods did not put their finger on the scales for Aeneas in his war, it heightens his and his army's personal accomplishment and glory. Virgil is saying that this is something they did on their own merits. What better way to emphasize how exceptional the Romans' forbears were!

But also on a story level, I liked that whole part where the gods give their speeches and Juno and Venus get to argue their cases. Despite the fact that Juno seems to me capricious and unreasonably vengeful throughout the Aeneid, she gives a fairly compelling case of how things look from her perspective. Both Juno and Venus argue their cases pretty well.

And then far below all this grand talk, the men struggle in their bloody wars . . . .

The 2 epics Odyssey and Iliad possessed value in the models for behavior, and Virgil used them to reify their significance. The original for the death of a warrior was when Hector knew he had lost but lunged against Achilles, setting the example for what 3000 years. But he sought the glorious death and made it so, gaining more honor than even Achilles. This ideal remains strong even now. The line "Live fast, die young, and leave a good-looking corpse" (John Derek says it in "Knock on Any Door" a 1949 Bogart film).
Odysseus when he thinks he will die on his raft breaking up on the rocks wishes he had died instead defending Achilles. The honorable death. So Aeneas ennobles young Lausus by creating that motif for him.